63 replies to this topic

[Strelok7]

Not everyone is against it. It was getting majority votes periodically !

[crazytimes]

Because like Escort, people would use it to try and get their multiplier up so they can do Skirmish on old Polar in lurm boats.

Sometimes, the multiplier would be too high and something no one actually wanted would get through.

[Frenzy Engine]

Every time I'm in Incursion, almost no one does any of the activities involved in it. Why? Because damage is king.

[MechB Kotare]

Incursion is bad. 99% matches were played like a regular skirmish/domination. Only once or twice have i witnessed any team to stay in the base or its perimeter. Talking from my own experience.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 August 2022 - 02:54 AM.

[Akamia Terizen]

It’s my favorite gametype. I dunno what everyone else was playing, but in the games I played, the objective was played quite frequently.

[MechB Kotare]

Akamia Terizen, on 25 August 2022 - 03:10 AM, said:

It’s my favorite gametype. I dunno what everyone else was playing, but in the games I played, the objective was played quite frequently.

Hmmm this is a fair point actually. The experience of T3 - 5 players can absolutely be different from mine.

[Saved By The Bell]

Leave it and improve base defense.

[LordNothing]

the bases are too small and isolated. they should expand out into the map with a few perimeters that you have to breech. there should be at most 2 grid squares of no mans land in between the bases. this seems like what they teased. spread out the objectives and add more walls and turrets to protect them. better turrets with more armor and better weapons, like ac10s or mrms and ams. add defensive/offensive structures that mechs can use as cover or climb for camping positions.

change up the towers. radar and jamming mostly affects lerm users and air control does nothing in qp since players are skirmishing outside the base. in fact move the towers out into the map in the high traffic areas, and make them cast a bubble that acts as a temporary quirk when you stand in them. get rid of the battery runners, it just takes mechs off the line to go run them around.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 25 August 2022 - 08:39 AM, said:

the bases are too small and isolated. they should expand out into the map with a few perimeters that you have to breech. there should be at most 2 grid squares of no mans land in between the bases. this seems like what they teased. spread out the objectives and add more walls and turrets to protect them. better turrets with more armor and better weapons, like ac10s or mrms and ams. add defensive/offensive structures that mechs can use as cover or climb for camping positions.

change up the towers. radar and jamming mostly affects lerm users and air control does nothing in qp since players are skirmishing outside the base. in fact move the towers out into the map in the high traffic areas, and make them cast a bubble that acts as a temporary quirk when you stand in them. get rid of the battery runners, it just takes mechs off the line to go run them around.

So what happens when both teams just camp their base? This is why you can't encourage camping on one side, if you want this type of gameplay, then make it asymmetrical. However we had an asymmetrical, and it was awful, because almost all the entrypoints were kill-zones.

If you want a base-esque game mode fine, but then you need to learn from CS:GO and make it asymmetric and also have two bases that are separated by some distance/landmarks that both need to be defended. Why because it means you can't easily camp. I doubt this game will end where take back tactics are required by the defending team but who knows, it could surprise me.




That said, incursion is awful for similar reason assault with turrets was awful. No one bothered with the objective 90% of the time and the turrets/walls close off parts of the map.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 August 2022 - 02:18 PM, said:

So what happens when both teams just camp their base? This is why you can't encourage camping on one side, if you want this type of gameplay, then make it asymmetrical. However we had an asymmetrical, and it was awful, because almost all the entrypoints were kill-zones.

If you want a base-esque game mode fine, but then you need to learn from CS:GO and make it asymmetric and also have two bases that are separated by some distance/landmarks that both need to be defended. Why because it means you can't easily camp. I doubt this game will end where take back tactics are required by the defending team but who knows, it could surprise me.




That said, incursion is awful for similar reason assault with turrets was awful. No one bothered with the objective 90% of the time and the turrets/walls close off parts of the map.

simple, you put all the towers in no mans land. getting a range, heat, or cooldown bonus from one of the towers there can easily demolish their defenses.

oh and long tom. in this case it targets your base structures. to use it you need to hold a tower placed in a very hard to defend location in the center of the map.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 August 2022 - 05:32 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Incursion has flavor. it plays like Assault, but instead of the goal being "stand in the laser box", you must "destroy the field HQ". I like that better.

Yes, it could be better implemented, but I like it more than Assault.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 25 August 2022 - 05:17 PM, said:

simple, you put all the towers in no mans land. getting a range, heat, or cooldown bonus from one of the towers there can easily demolish their defenses.

oh and long tom. in this case it targets your base structures. to use it you need to hold a tower placed in a very hard to defend location in the center of the map.

That still smells wrong without respawn. Otherwise it is just kill the other dudes if they try to go to the towers (or really murder their lights and then they are pretty much screwed), and then just use the towers to end the game fast.

I will repeat this until it sinks in with this community, objectives in a no-respawn game should only ever do two things:

• Force an engagement
  
• Deter camping

The way you describe it, you are forcing an engagement in no-man's land (sounds like you are just saying you want to ERLL spammed to death) but are definitely encouraging camping because, well the bases are connected by a no-man's land.

These above reasons are why conquest is the mode for competitive, because out of all the game modes, it deters camping and forces engagements the best out of any mode (while being the most balanced of the modes so that one side isn't too off). Domination is a close second but the placement of the circle is definitely rough on some maps (partially because well, a lot of the maps weren't designed for the mode).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 August 2022 - 06:25 PM.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 August 2022 - 06:24 PM, said:

That still smells wrong without respawn. Otherwise it is just kill the other dudes if they try to go to the towers (or really murder their lights and then they are pretty much screwed), and then just use the towers to end the game fast.

I will repeat this until it sinks in with this community, objectives in a no-respawn game should only ever do two things:

• Force an engagement
  
• Deter camping

The way you describe it, you are forcing an engagement in no-man's land (sounds like you are just saying you want to ERLL spammed to death) but are definitely encouraging camping because, well the bases are connected by a no-man's land.


These above reasons are why conquest is the mode for competitive, because out of all the game modes, it deters camping and forces engagements the best out of any mode (while being the most balanced of the modes so that one side isn't too off). Domination is a close second but the placement of the circle is definitely rough on some maps (partially because well, a lot of the maps weren't designed for the mode).

wont deny any of that. one-life-per-round comes with a lot of compromises and has led this game into stagnation. fp or eq decked modes can do things with objectives that qp can never do, but it still pales compared to infinite respawn. a bad player might respawn 10 times but they play till the timer runs out or the objective is completed, no matter how tedius. mwll had epic hour long games where you could play like an idiot and lose mech after mech, or play like a pro and repair or trade up. in either case you are in game the whole time and not doing repetitive queue-play cycles without a whole lot of variation from match to match.

[ScrapIron Prime]

LordNothing, on 25 August 2022 - 07:01 PM, said:

a bad player might respawn 10 times but they play till the timer runs out or the objective is completed, no matter how tedius.

Leeeeroy Jenner !1!!

[Maj Destruction]

Incursion is interesting, but with a no-respawn game, I don't see it working. It doesn't come up often, and when it does, I usually vote for it just for something different.

I've been running a stealth Flea lately. I decided to check out the enemy base the other day on an Incursion round. I was bemused to see that the turrets ignore stealthed mechs (I wasn't actually sure before). It might have been a worthy mission, except everyone else was just brawling. My team had pretty well minced through the other team by the time I started gnawing on the base.

With the bases being so far apart, and nothing in between, I don't see much point. If not for the turrets, maybe more people would try sneaking around and blowing up the base, I dunno. Assault is fun, but I suppose the big difference is anyone can roll up to the undefended base and start cap'ing, without harassment.

Matt

[PocketYoda]

Its not the game modes fault its how this game rewards players that is the problem.. If Cbills and XP were given outside of just damage people would play the modes.

Players have been conditioned to shoot mechs, so that's what they do.

[Maj Destruction]

Fair point, I only recently began figuring out how to increase score outside of just farming damage. I've been scoring under 300 DMG on a lot of rounds now that I'm running lights, but if I stick close to my team and do a lot of support stuff, my score/rating is better. Often it seems as simple as just running around my team mates, or opponents, and nipping at the bad guys' heels.

I stopped caring about score when I started running lights and noticing all the ways I could be helpful that don't get (or can't get) scored, but it's nice to see some team-support tactics being rewarded.

Matt

Edited by Maj Destruction, 25 August 2022 - 10:57 PM.

[MrTBSC]

i want incursion to stay in, for me personaly it`s sad enough solaris is gone primarily through bad que implementation of the mechs/classes/tiers, no trialmechs being available for that mode, and no use of rounds/winpoints like best of 3 or best of 5

incursion needs tweaking to motivate players to go for base attack or include mech vs basecombat interaction better ... it`s definetively a mode for faction play with dropdecks but i still can see it being a viable mode for QP with a one mechdrop

maybe instead of like having the mobile bases on one side rather have them spread across half the map for each team similar-ish to conquest so it is a bit easier to get to mobile bases and the enemy realy feeling the threat of losing their base ...
tweak mobilebase- and turretsurviveability accordingly, maybe lower the number of mobile bases to 3 per side instead of 4 .. remove the walls but leave the roadblocks and turrets ... generally the mode should allow a mix between base harrasment and deathballing ... at the moment it`s only the latter but for mech v mech combat ... little to no mech v base interaction .. teams also may consider basedefense instead of pure aggression ...


i honestly no kidding think if there is one mode to be removed it should indeed be skirmish, because there is no alternative wincodition to it and end game tends to drag out with a passive last surviver .. don`t need that ... may aswell just take assault or domination then ..

also for gods sake reward supportplay/roles already ...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nomad Tech, on 25 August 2022 - 09:48 PM, said:

Its not the game modes fault its how this game rewards players that is the problem.. If Cbills and XP were given outside of just damage people would play the modes.

Players have been conditioned to shoot mechs, so that's what they do.

No, its not the cbills and XP, its the fact that we came here to shoot mechs. This is a no respawn game, so having objectives that can circumvent that aspect is just dumb. I didn't come here to blow up buildings that don't fight back, if I wanted that I would just play MW5.

[Zeddicuus]

At first I didn't like Incursion, until I got a better understanding of how it works.

Now I actually like Incursion. The opposing teams wants to play skirmish mode? I'll just sneak into their base and demolish a few key structures. That way even if they kill all of my team they might still lose. I've seen it go that way a couple times, where the side I was on won since we destroyed a base or two and they only had like 5 minutes to do the same while on the opposite end of the map in assaults or heavies.

I'd love to see more people actually play the objectives, but as already mentioned multiple times, the game's reward systems don't want players doing that so most players just...don't do that.

Which kinda sucks, but the only way to encourage it is to reward players for following objectives more than going for that high damage number.