210 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Primus Virjul Khaine, on 26 January 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

The higher the teir the more competition you have with higher tier players(who are higher teir because they have been playing since the inception of MWO and not based on skill);

Incorrect on that point. Since the skill reset years ago, your PSR goes up when you're in the top 50% of match score each match, and goes down when you're in the bottom 50%. How much it goes up or down depends on the difference in the match scores.

So a T1 player has to consistently perform in the top 50% of matches to stay there, while anyone of a lower tier needs to do that to keep rising toward T1. It is entirely possible to hit T3, encounter T1 players for the first time, and find yourself no longer in the top 50% of match scores each match much more frequently.

Hitting T3 and bouncing back down to T4 is common. So is hitting T2 and bouncing back down to T3. I've been doing the same for a long time, stuck in T2, hitting T1, and sliding back down. This isn't a failing of the system, this is the system doing its best to match you with players who will not always outperform you.

Remember... the thing every bad match you're in has in common... is you. This is a PVP game, there is likely something you could be doing better than you are now. So if you want to be better than the other guy, step back and look at your play style and maybe make a change or two. It could be builds, situational awareness, positioning... none of us are immune to repeating our mistakes, so its up to us to learn from them.

[Saved By The Bell]

He wanted to say

His team has potato group + random potato

Against good group + random potato

(and sometimes even worse, because they know how to do it)

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 26 January 2024 - 10:25 AM.

[crazytimes]

Primus Virjul Khaine, on 26 January 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

This issue still stands.


The higher the teir the more competition you have with higher tier players(who are higher teir because they have been playing since the inception of MWO and not based on skill); thus, you need a higher and higher match score to climb the ladder.

The higher tier matches are generally lower damage and lower match score. Because people can aim and don't just spread damage.

Quote

he combination of the 'raise the bar' teir system and broken matching making at teir 3 make the teir system broken to new players attempting to raise their rank.

Higher ranked players can chime in all they want; they will experience this when they create new accounts and attempt to climb the teir ladder.

This thread was literally one of the main reasons I did exactly that. Every premise by low skill players suggesting the "system" holds them back was as false as expected. I'm at the bottom end of skill in tier 1, by the time the 25 cadet matches were over I was half way through tier 4, and in tier 1 by 200 matches. There's players much better than me that can do it in about 70 matches.

Take responsibility for your own skill level.

[Meep Meep]

crazytimes, on 26 January 2024 - 02:18 PM, said:

There's players much better than me that can do it in about 70 matches.

I haven't seen any evidence even tippy top players can turbo to t1 from t5 in 70 games. This one time in band camp someone a long time ago did it in 118 games in a spider but that was a far different game with a far different meta. In the current meta? Maybe 150ish games if you really are gud and exclusively playing meta mechs. Iirc TTB's seal clubbing trial mech series he is still in t3 maybe just edging into t2 and he has played around 70 games so far.

Also how did this get necroed?

Edited by Meep Meep, 26 January 2024 - 03:46 PM.

[Primus Virjul Khaine]

And as consistent with this community: the high tier players or with old accounts jump on and defend the broken mechanics by accusing the player of failing. They just chime in to create confusion and add very little other than accusing the player.

The game is a team based game; we lose as teams, not as players. If you are consistently on teams that lose your rank goes down until you are matched with players at the top of the previous tier; then you teeter back up and the cycle repeats.

Unexperienced players being grouped together with 3-4 experienced players against a team of experienced or coordinated players will lower your rank. The meta is a bell curve based on all active players on the tier system; the meta changes as all players move up and down ranks. I.E. if you are retired and not playing your rank can still move around based on the movement of all players on the ladder.

Edited by Primus Virjul Khaine, 26 January 2024 - 04:39 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Primus Virjul Khaine, on 26 January 2024 - 04:34 PM, said:

And as consistent with this community: the high tier players or with old accounts jump on and defend the broken mechanics by accusing the player of failing. They just chime in to create confusion and add very little other than accusing the player.

The game is a team based game; we lose as teams, not as players. If you are consistently on teams that lose your rank goes down until you are matched with players at the top of the previous tier; then you teeter back up and the cycle repeats.

Unexperienced players being grouped together with 3-4 experienced players against a team of experienced or coordinated players will lower your rank. The meta is a bell curve based on all active players on the tier system; the meta changes as all players move up and down ranks. I.E. if you are retired and not playing your rank can still move around based on the movement of all players on the ladder.

Good players may get dragged down by a bad team in some matches, but averaged over many matches that is not what is going on. You may get matched against a top team one game, but may be on their team the next. The common factor of who is on your team across many matches is you. Plenty of people are thrown into the same soup of getting bad teams, but consistently rise in PSR.

The high tier players are telling people they are losing because they aren't good enough to win consistently because it is true. The matchmaking system is noisy, and even the best players end up on terrible losing teams. But it averages out over time.

Edited by Heavy Money, 26 January 2024 - 05:02 PM.

[Besh]

Primus Virjul Khaine, on 26 January 2024 - 04:34 PM, said:

And as consistent with this community: the high tier players or with old accounts jump on and defend the broken mechanics by accusing the player of failing. They just chime in to create confusion and add very little other than accusing the player.

The game is a team based game; we lose as teams, not as players. If you are consistently on teams that lose your rank goes down until you are matched with players at the top of the previous tier; then you teeter back up and the cycle repeats.

Unexperienced players being grouped together with 3-4 experienced players against a team of experienced or coordinated players will lower your rank. The meta is a bell curve based on all active players on the tier system; the meta changes as all players move up and down ranks. I.E. if you are retired and not playing your rank can still move around based on the movement of all players on the ladder.

Yeah, that somehow has become default response of many, many people . In my book, its a form of Gaslighting . Like, "If you loose, its your fault"...or "Just git gud" . As if it wasnt that you are pretty much NOT able to win alone in MW:O . But somewhen almost a decade ago, it has been "decided" that personal performance is what matters most . So now, no matter the argument or problem someone adresses...its "Its on you." first, often reflexively .

[torsie]

I am bad player and I am in Tier 1 (please send help )

I am not 100% sure, but I think it gets worse somewhere around Tier 3, I didnt know tiers exist when I started playing, but I noticed big change in every match suddenly, my way of playing suddenly didnt work, my mech suddenly didnt work, it is where I noticed most of people sitting in back with laser pointers and those little pesky ankle chompers being absolutely unstoppable.

Outside of once being invited by CatGirl I always play alone and move mostly on my own.
Yes it is sometimes bad when you meet good people on enemy team, sometimes I see Urby or mr. Wub wub or or Salt salti salt-something he plays small mechs and its horror to play against them, I almost always lose when they are on enemy team. And lots and lots of others.

But sometimes you get them on your team and its free win !

I think there are 2 things that any player can do on their own, if they want to get into higher tier, I am super bad, so I dont want to tell other people they are bad, but sometimes its not your teams fault, and you can get green arrows even if your team loses.

#1 DO MORE DAMAGE !!! This is super silly and I have to say I dont like this very much. But most of your score comes from your damage. More damage you do, more chance you have to get green arrow. You dont need to be good, you dont need to win, you dont need to explode your opponent, you dont need to aim, just, do, more, damage.
I often see people running away and hiding constantly, I am not saying you should rush 1 against 12 like torsie does, but whenever you see something, just click on it, enemy running to hide, shoot them even if they hide before you do all your damage, little bit of leg or arm poking around corner, shoot it ! Shoot big mechs, they are always scary and are very easy to hit.


#2 Take a look at your mech. I like saying from this game "matches are lost in mechlab". I am not good at it myself, I often end here on forums asking people for help, or asking during matches what am I doing wrong. Every time I build some new creation I will usually go for wild ride of red arrows and exploding under one minute .
But between every match, I got to mechlab, and I try to change something a little bit, sometimes for better sometimes for worse. I got lot of very useful tips here on forums ^{(Thank you VoidAngel)} about heat being useful and you should use it, instead of trying to sit on 0 hero, how all your guns should work together, having similar range or cooldown, or not having one gun aiming in front of people and one on your target. And I did some experiments myself, one of my mechs never runs out of ammo, so I have only small boxes of ammo and more space for more things for example.
And even if I have silly mech that doesnt do much, I get slightly better score every time I tinker with it a bit, untill I am back in green arrow forest.

PS: Stay in lower tier, its more fun there, I want to go back .

[CrustyMech]

Related to this topic, is it possible to determine the numerical value of your current PSR to see the amount needed to hit the next level?

Also, my own 2Cbills worth regarding the different tiers - I joined long ago, left for 18 months or so and then came back. The answer back then applies now - a "well, d'uh" revelation. Your own skill level in the game is obviously important but the strength of the team (and cooperation of your lance mates) makes the biggest difference in QP. I watched a lot of matches (both online and recorded) and noticed that main pearl of wisdom above all else. My own level will never get past 5, but I'm okay with that now - my main goal is to try and help the team as much as I can and not be an anchor. I am a bullet magnet, yes, but I still have fun .

As FP seems to have dissolved I can no longer speak to that aspect of going up and down in the Tier system.

[crazytimes]

Besh, on 27 January 2024 - 08:32 AM, said:

Yeah, that somehow has become default response of many, many people . In my book, its a form of Gaslighting . Like, "If you loose, its your fault"...or "Just git gud" . As if it wasnt that you are pretty much NOT able to win alone in MW:O . But somewhen almost a decade ago, it has been "decided" that personal performance is what matters most . So now, no matter the argument or problem someone adresses...its "Its on you." first, often reflexively .

The exact same excuses are used in every team sport and game.

Yet sports teams still pay hundreds of millions for individual players...

[Besh]

crazytimes, on 27 January 2024 - 10:55 AM, said:

The exact same excuses are used in every team sport and game.

Yet sports teams still pay hundreds of millions for individual players...

Wait, what of my post you replied to was an "excuse" ? When I wrote "you cant win alone" ?

Also, I am not exactly sure the exorbitant sums being played for extraordinary sportspeople in some Teamsports are solely based on their abilities/skills . I would think the marketability of the person and increase of marketability of the Team plays a role .

Put prime Messi on a soccer pitch alone and watch him win [/s] .

I should have started writing "Cant really compare MW:O with sports like Soccer, Baseball, American Football, Basketball etc..." . For one, those dont rly have the MW:O like snowball effect influencing how games play out .

Funnily, in many Teamsports, not few the of most extraordinary people are not hesitating a second pointing out that much of what they achieve only being possible due to team effort, and praise and thank their team, trainers etc. for much of what they achieve...

^^

Edited by Besh, 27 January 2024 - 11:42 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Besh, on 27 January 2024 - 11:33 AM, said:

Wait, what of my post you replied to was an "excuse" ? When I wrote "you cant win alone" ?

Also, I am not exactly sure the exorbitant sums being played for extraordinary sportspeople in some Teamsports are solely based on their abilities/skills . I would think the marketability of the person and increase of marketability of the Team plays a role .

Put prime Messi on a soccer pitch alone and watch him win [/s] .

I should have started writing "Cant really compare MW:O with sports like Soccer, Baseball, American Football, Basketball etc..." . For one, those dont rly have the MW:O like snowball effect influencing how games play out .

Funnily, in many Teamsports, not few the of most extraordinary people are not hesitating a second pointing out that much of what they achieve only being possible due to team effort, and praise and thank their team, trainers etc. for much of what they achieve...

^^

Some team based sports games absolutely do have snowball effects. One of the most notable I know of is test Cricket, where a 5 game series plays out with not only important meta factors like weather, time of day and pitch quality, but also the team's morale. Knock a few good players out or attrit the stamina of the team, and a collapse is common where the remaining players are stumped in a short while. It's actually quite exciting to follow. Test matches usually span a day or two, so it's interesting to watch these effects in motion where one team (England is especially good at it) makes a surprising comeback or dismal collapse.

Edited by RickySpanish, 27 January 2024 - 03:36 PM.

[Meep Meep]

torsie, on 27 January 2024 - 09:36 AM, said:

I am bad player and I am in Tier 1 (please send help )

I am not 100% sure, but I think it gets worse somewhere around Tier 3, I didnt know tiers exist when I started playing, but I noticed big change in every match suddenly, my way of playing suddenly didnt work, my mech suddenly didnt work, it is where I noticed most of people sitting in back with laser pointers and those little pesky ankle chompers being absolutely unstoppable.

You observed correctly. The difference in play between tier 4 and 3 is night and day and it happens just as soon as you cross over into tier 3. Now the floodgates open and you get sweaty t1 lances and wolfpacks of meta lights and all sorts of higher skill tomfoolery. This is the sink or swim tier and those that are more than casual players will swim and the rest will sink back into the lower tiers or constantly bounce between tier 4 and 3.

[Tarl Cabot]

CrustyMech, on 27 January 2024 - 10:03 AM, said:

Related to this topic, is it possible to determine the numerical value of your current PSR to see the amount needed to hit the next level?

snip

Each tier works out to 1000 PSR points to a max of 5000 PSR, per PGI. It had been set at a max of 3750

https://mwomercs.com...edback-round-1/

This is when PGI did the reset and initially started EVERYONE, including new players, in Tier 3 (2500 PSR points) and notated a total of 5000 PSR pts.
https://mwomercs.com...ty-formula-v10/

The final version of the current net zero at the drop level.
https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/
https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/

[martian]

Primus Virjul Khaine, on 26 January 2024 - 04:34 PM, said:

Iif you are retired and not playing your rank can still move around based on the movement of all players on the ladder.

Practically, if you stop playing, then you stay in the Tier that you are currently in. Your PSR bar neither gains nor loses PSR points.

This is why you can see some non-playing forum spammers showing their Tier badges, even though they have not played MWO for months or years.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

There's a pretty massive difficulty spike at times going into T3 and it becomes more frequent at T2. It's very difficult to figure out what needs to change in playstyle to accommodate. Move with team and try to shoot what they shoot doesn't cut it by itself, and a number of teams just outright defy being worked with by splitting, running straight to bad spots and crowding firing lanes/movement space.

[Meep Meep]

the check engine light, on 27 January 2024 - 06:09 PM, said:

There's a pretty massive difficulty spike at times going into T3 and it becomes more frequent at T2. It's very difficult to figure out what needs to change in playstyle to accommodate. Move with team and try to shoot what they shoot doesn't cut it by itself, and a number of teams just outright defy being worked with by splitting, running straight to bad spots and crowding firing lanes/movement space.

Hate to break it to you but the exact same shizz happens in tippy top max bar t1 matches. The difference is that the handful of gud players in any given match will dominate by exploiting that brownian motion. T1 has just as many bad players as the lower tiers but since they are less bad they eventually made it to the top of the psr ladder via two steps forward one step back play. Statistically there is only a very small portion of the playerbase anyone would call Gud. Everyone else is various shades of average.

[CrustyMech]

Tarl Cabot, on 27 January 2024 - 04:02 PM, said:

Each tier works out to 1000 PSR points to a max of 5000 PSR, per PGI. It had been set at a max of 3750

https://mwomercs.com...edback-round-1/

This is when PGI did the reset and initially started EVERYONE, including new players, in Tier 3 (2500 PSR points) and notated a total of 5000 PSR pts.
https://mwomercs.com...ty-formula-v10/

The final version of the current net zero at the drop level.
https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/
https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/

Ah. So when I returned back a few months ago I was set to T3? I thought it was T5 quite honestly. But my question then would be if I am at, say T3, and my bar is over halfway across, how many match points do I need to reach T2?

[Tarl Cabot]

CrustyMech, on 27 January 2024 - 07:25 PM, said:

Ah. So when I returned back a few months ago I was set to T3? I thought it was T5 quite honestly. But my question then would be if I am at, say T3, and my bar is over halfway across, how many match points do I need to reach T2?

Originally the initial reset had everyone in T3 THEN a few months later PGI changed it back to Tier 5, but only those players who didnt play during the initial reset were moved to Tier 5, as well as new players now start in T5. If you didnt play during the initial reset, then when came back you would have started in Tier 5.

As mentioned, each Tier is 1000 PSR points. If you are at Tier 3.5 then approximately (edited That 2. where did it go!! ) 2500 PSR points. This thread shows the PSR formulary and graph. Most players will earn/lost at most 10 PSR pts or lower, with the Top dog earning 25-30 PSR pts. As mentioned everyone is rated against the other 23 players in that match with the winning side having a small percentage boost in that final calculation. There is an online excel sheet which one can punch the numbers in for each match. I do it sometimes, sometimes when I get an UP arrow or Down arrow, shoot, even an Equal sign, when I think I shouldn't off, ie based on the game results that green/red/yellow sign looked off!! When I have checked at those times, besides the equal sign, the others I had either went up 1 PSR pt or down 1 PSR pt On one UP arrow I had a 145 MS (edited) and earned 2 PSR pts, iirc, and 14 players moved up and 1 broke even. Reds base rushed They won the game but I still moved up with that measly 145 MS pt.


https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/


https://mwomercs.com...65#entry6523065

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 29 January 2024 - 04:19 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Meep Meep, on 27 January 2024 - 06:25 PM, said:

Hate to break it to you but the exact same shizz happens in tippy top max bar t1 matches. The difference is that the handful of gud players in any given match will dominate by exploiting that brownian motion. T1 has just as many bad players as the lower tiers but since they are less bad they eventually made it to the top of the psr ladder via two steps forward one step back play. Statistically there is only a very small portion of the playerbase anyone would call Gud. Everyone else is various shades of average.

That's the problem.


This is not the easiest thing to figure out when you are in the midst of the fire.