62 replies to this topic

[martian]

Quandoo, on 23 September 2022 - 02:49 PM, said:

this game is simply in bad hands. instead of providing a proper, modern successor they flood us with mech packs and events for amateurs without a slight challange.

it's turning more and more into a crappy mobile game

The PGI's MechWarrior licence will end in 2025 or 2026.

[Curccu]

Haipyng, on 23 September 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

How quickly we forget.

The Group Queue killed itself. There were 4 to 6, eight to twelve man pre-mades dominating it in prime time, coming up against two to four man pre-mades lumped together not much better than PUGs. I advocated for years for some way to let smaller groups play without nearly constantly playing against large premades with nearly constant 12 to 0-2 outcomes. Nothing was ever done. Then group queue wait times climbed into the 30 min mark for a match as people dropped out and then, it... died. Just as predicted. MWO player numbers plummeted to a ridiculously low number. It was only then that PGI felt the need to do something to stop the slide in player numbers and only months after Group queue died, they made the soup queue.

You haven't seen seal clubbing until you try to run PUGs against practiced 12 mans with complimentary builds.

The issue is not with small groups. The issue is with match-maker. It has always been with match-maker and the low population playing. It doesn't have enough players to build tiered levels before the safeties let go and it lumps tiers together so people are not waiting forever. It does not consider builds. It does not consider tonnage. That makes for some colossally lopsided matches from random chance.

Shot callers do more to help wins than anything else in this game. If you don't want to be a shot caller, don't whine in the match.

huge issue for matchmaker was that 60-70% of the games population was Tier1 at some point, now with bit smarter tier calculation some of those same T1 players are T4-5. Tonnage and other stuff you listed is pretty irrelevant compared to that issue.
And how could MM consider builds? I mean that is pretty much impossible are LRMs good? usually not but if you add 1 narcher who knows how to that job? well sure if you get old polar it's almost auto win but how about in Solaris city? lost by default unless rest of the group carries hard.

Haipyng, on 23 September 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

Except, FW was a complete dud. No one cares to play it.

FP was popular and functional at some point and loads of players cared to play it but bad decisions from PGI drove away most of the players from that game mode.

[Bud Crue]

Haipyng, on 23 September 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

How quickly we forget.

The Group Queue killed itself. There were 4 to 6, eight to twelve man pre-mades dominating it in prime time, coming up against two to four man pre-mades lumped together not much better than PUGs. I advocated for years for some way to let smaller groups play without nearly constantly playing against large premades with nearly constant 12 to 0-2 outcomes. Nothing was ever done. Then group queue wait times climbed into the 30 min mark for a match as people dropped out and then, it... died. Just as predicted. MWO player numbers plummeted to a ridiculously low number. It was only then that PGI felt the need to do something to stop the slide in player numbers and only months after Group queue died, they made the soup queue.

You haven't seen seal clubbing until you try to run PUGs against practiced 12 mans with complimentary builds.

The issue is not with small groups. The issue is with match-maker. It has always been with match-maker and the low population playing. It doesn't have enough players to build tiered levels before the safeties let go and it lumps tiers together so people are not waiting forever. It does not consider builds. It does not consider tonnage. That makes for some colossally lopsided matches from random chance.

Shot callers do more to help wins than anything else in this game. If you don't want to be a shot caller, don't whine in the match.



Except, FW was a complete dud. No one cares to play it.

This is some serious revisionist history that ignores...well, actual history.

[Novakaine]

Perhaps the OP is looking for a more single player experience?
Such as Candy Crush sheesh.

[martian]

Novakaine, on 24 September 2022 - 09:24 AM, said:

Perhaps the OP is looking for a more single player experience?
Such as Candy Crush sheesh.

There is always this possibility:



Not to talk about the previous MechWarrior installments.

[Catra Lanis]

When I see that the grouped up lights are out in force I just log off. No point in getting frustrated. I play to get away and relax.

[XenoWraith]

Curccu, on 23 September 2022 - 06:54 AM, said:

How many smurf accounts I have to make to stay @ T5 to prove that T5 is super easy compared to T1? As I fly out of T5 to T4 in few games with unskilled urbie or trial light mechs.

The fact you keep your smurf accounts at T5 instead of moving up them up the tiers tells me you haven’t done enough games to justify your research.

[LordNothing]

t1s playing in t5 is probibly why this game cant keep new players. that likely does more damage that groups in quickplay. just play the game and let your tier settle where it may.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 September 2022 - 06:08 PM.

[Curccu]

XenoWraith, on 24 September 2022 - 11:42 AM, said:

The fact you keep your smurf accounts at T5 instead of moving up them up the tiers tells me you haven’t done enough games to justify your research.

I won't be making more smurf accounts, the only one that got out of T5 in 3-4 games is enough. Not that I'm going to play it more because there is no point in seal clubbing even in name of research.

But humor me and tell me how many times I should repeat that getting out of T5 in 3-4 games with new account that it would prove to YOU that T5 is easier than T1.

LordNothing, on 24 September 2022 - 06:04 PM, said:

t1s playing in t5 is probibly why this game cant keep new players. that likely does more damage that groups in quickplay. just play the game and let your tier settle where it may.

T1s won't stay @ T5 more than 2-5 games unless they tank their games on purpose.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 25 September 2022 - 01:44 AM, said:

T1s won't stay @ T5 more than 2-5 games unless they tank their games on purpose.

they can do that or create additional alts. or let their kids play on that account. you have people who openly admit to doing it. there are no rules against it. so it stands to reason that it does happen. it would help to quantify how much this happens. regardless of how good the mm can reduce the instances or make it more difficult to pull off, its still a lame thing to do. it hurts the new player experience and reduces new player retention. which will help to reduce the profitability and thus the longevity of the game. a few cheap wins is not worth it.

[Haipyng]

Bud Crue, on 24 September 2022 - 03:27 AM, said:

This is some serious revisionist history that ignores...well, actual history.

I am sure you have a scientific study refuting that and tying 4 mans neatly to MWO's decline. Feel free to push that data out for all to see. I am merely relating my experience. MWO struggles along when it allows coop play with friends and solo play together. It fails when it abandons any coop play with friends. I gave up trying to point that out to knuckleheads that want their solo experience right up until the point they sit on the searching screen for 30+ minutes for a match in solo queue.

[Prowling Hunter]

Expfighter, on 17 September 2022 - 07:47 PM, said:

Can we PLEASE do something about TEAMS in matches? tired of being matched up against 3 and 4 man teams all running lights. they are well coordinated via outside commo and they make a team of solos just QUIT the game after being devastated 12-0.

If they want to team up like that, make them wait until a match of full teams is available

full support !!! tired of this onsided stomps !!!!!!!!!!!!

[ScrapIron Prime]

Prowling Hunter, on 25 September 2022 - 09:12 AM, said:

full support !!! tired of this onsided stomps !!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you what... I'll support this if you'll go recruit 10,000 more people for the game so that we have the population to support a group queue again. Half hour waits to drop kinda suck, which is why we have the system we do now.

[Haipyng]

Curccu, on 24 September 2022 - 03:15 AM, said:

huge issue for matchmaker was that 60-70% of the games population was Tier1 at some point, now with bit smarter tier calculation some of those same T1 players are T4-5. Tonnage and other stuff you listed is pretty irrelevant compared to that issue.
And how could MM consider builds? I mean that is pretty much impossible are LRMs good? usually not but if you add 1 narcher who knows how to that job? well sure if you get old polar it's almost auto win but how about in Solaris city? lost by default unless rest of the group carries hard.



FP was popular and functional at some point and loads of players cared to play it but bad decisions from PGI drove away most of the players from that game mode.

Tiers still get blown off by MM when the timer safeties kick in and it will lump tier 1s into lower tiers to prevent long wait times. The Population is not there to prevent it.

Tonnage is absolutely relevant. More tonnage generally means more armor to chew through. Teams dropping with 6 assaults vs one or two on the other team could have a real advantage (if they are not playing assault sniper mechs and hiding in the rear).

Builds also matter. Long range builds vs short range builds have an advantage. Stacking LRM/ATMs on one side vs the other can be an advantage. Placing all the ECM/AMS mechs on one side could be another. MM doesn't need to consider the nuance of the build, just if it is mostly short range vs long range vs balanced and spread them our between two teams after it picks 24 players. Split ATM/LRMs between teams. Split ECM/AMS between teams so they don't stack. It's only best effort and won't be perfect, but it is better that the outlier games with stacked assaults, heavies, LRMS, etc on one side resulting in stomps.

It's much more satisfying to have a match that is within 5 or less of each other, than a 12-2 stomp.

[RickySpanish]

Didn't Tarogato do an analysis of games played and determine that the likelihood of winning was not down to tonnage, but the average win/loss ratio of a particular team? I.e. tonnage imbalance is less often the determinent of which side wins, it's just that one team may be stacked with better players. Sorry not sure if that's something anybody wanted to hear, so I'll just head to bed now...

Edited by RickySpanish, 25 September 2022 - 08:48 PM.

[Curccu]

Haipyng, on 25 September 2022 - 05:53 PM, said:

Tiers still get blown off by MM when the timer safeties kick in and it will lump tier 1s into lower tiers to prevent long wait times. The Population is not there to prevent it.

Tonnage is absolutely relevant. More tonnage generally means more armor to chew through. Teams dropping with 6 assaults vs one or two on the other team could have a real advantage (if they are not playing assault sniper mechs and hiding in the rear).

Builds also matter. Long range builds vs short range builds have an advantage. Stacking LRM/ATMs on one side vs the other can be an advantage. Placing all the ECM/AMS mechs on one side could be another. MM doesn't need to consider the nuance of the build, just if it is mostly short range vs long range vs balanced and spread them our between two teams after it picks 24 players. Split ATM/LRMs between teams. Split ECM/AMS between teams so they don't stack. It's only best effort and won't be perfect, but it is better that the outlier games with stacked assaults, heavies, LRMS, etc on one side resulting in stomps.

It's much more satisfying to have a match that is within 5 or less of each other, than a 12-2 stomp.

What RiskySpanish said https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6472688 .
1 light can chew multiple assaults easily if skill difference is there or build that just happens to be good against those builds.

Builds CAN affect if they are stacked to other side but they can swing both ways, loads of fast brawlers vs ranged mechs on other side on map that you cannot easily get long range superiority (mining, brawlers most likely win. Solaris City & Mining Collective for example) Lurms on other side can be advantage and sometimes is not.

Sure this thing could affect some games you suggested but I argue that most of the stomps happen because of skill difference on sides and possible team play.

[SFC174]

Haipyng, on 25 September 2022 - 05:55 AM, said:

I am sure you have a scientific study refuting that and tying 4 mans neatly to MWO's decline. Feel free to push that data out for all to see. I am merely relating my experience. MWO struggles along when it allows coop play with friends and solo play together. It fails when it abandons any coop play with friends. I gave up trying to point that out to knuckleheads that want their solo experience right up until the point they sit on the searching screen for 30+ minutes for a match in solo queue.

Just look at what happened to population after soup queue was implemented. It grew the first month it was tried, and then population dropped 20% over the next 4 months. Started growing again when PGI hired Daeron and said they'd put some resources back into the game (buy the rumor). Kept growing until Cauldron changes started being implemented, then dropped off again by about 20% to current levels (sell the reality, but still higher than pre-Daeron).

You can argue that post soup queue drops were due to other factors, but its pretty hard to argue in favor of soup helping grow population. The pandemic probably saved the game, and restarting development for a short while at least, seems to have boosted population to a somewhat sustainable level.

I'll sign off again for another year or so. I just check in periodically to see if its worth coming back. So far, no joy.

[Haipyng]

Curccu, on 25 September 2022 - 08:57 PM, said:

What RiskySpanish said https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6472688 .
1 light can chew multiple assaults easily if skill difference is there or build that just happens to be good against those builds.

Builds CAN affect if they are stacked to other side but they can swing both ways, loads of fast brawlers vs ranged mechs on other side on map that you cannot easily get long range superiority (mining, brawlers most likely win. Solaris City & Mining Collective for example) Lurms on other side can be advantage and sometimes is not.

Sure this thing could affect some games you suggested but I argue that most of the stomps happen because of skill difference on sides and possible team play.

Problem is the system cannot balance skill sets any further than what they have done. Several people have hashed out and even done the math on the forums trying to help them but it seems those ideas were discarded for one reason or another.

If they can't balance the skill sets further, they should attempt to balance other aspects that can have an affect on match outcomes. No one factor is a fix all. All they can do is minimize it with what they have. A balancing pass made on a match after players were selected is only going to help.

Edited by Haipyng, 26 September 2022 - 11:09 AM.

[pbiggz]

lol this again

[Mighty Spike]

yea the same ol story again and again