121 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 03:59 PM, said:

What in the blue hell are you going on about saying my "profile proves this is click baiting"?

1) Who in the hell are you?

2) You know nothing about me

Hello I'm Darian DelFord Proud Forum Warrior since these forums have been up and running. You are the 184,605 person to register on July 10th, 2012. Meaning you have at least seen the game. However your Jarls List only goes back to November of 21, which is where the above stats came from someone quoted. This tells us a few things about your view point.

Such as you being regiested on these forums and at the time of this post had only posted twice. Add that to your Jarl stats, granted at least you play lights, and the conclusion is a click bait post with your OP.

Look below for further validation

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:03 PM, said:

Not only that but what Pirahna pilot isnt going to be the decider in the where/when/how engagement against a Boom Jager?

And what about the Dual Guass and Dual ER PPC builds that can one shot you at 600+ meters. Or in fact any of the PPC spam that is swarming the field. Also lets not forget about AC boats, or the Laser boats, all of which can easily blast a 50ish point alpha. One hit from that and ANY light is toast. However your example of a BOOM Jager, Max range on a boating Piranha as you have put out there is what 200ish meters with an alpha tops what 30ish if its a micro pulse laser build? Now pretty sure the Boom Jager is at least a 40 point alpha to what 300 meters? So my question is, whats your point?

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes, a person needs to build a particular build, just to counter lights; the question is why are people having to build heavies and assaults JUST to do that? The fact that one needs to do that, is an indication that there is a problem.

Ummmm hate to break this to you, but just about ANY build for a heavy or an assault is an anti light build. All you have to do is hit them once and they are all but wasted.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:12 PM, said:

No sure what your point is. I level up all of my mechs by earning the skill points, thats a bit of the reason why my score is fairly low.

Your score low honestly means nothing to me. I personally look at length of time playing the game, mech class, and lesser extent match score. Granted you at least play lights, according to Jarl's anyways. Your stats tell me, you have not mastered the game yet, and there is nothing wrong with that. Even dedicated light pilots have a tough time of it. I have never liked the way PGI has dumped 50% of your match score to be damage. That puts light mechs at a severe disadvantage.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:26 PM, said:

When the hitboxes are that small, at the speed the mech is moving, a great deal of time, the pirahna (or other very small target) won't get hit. The size, and speed, are an armor all its own, and THEN theres the problems with registering a hit. The problem is that its still a 20 ton vehicle, which isnt all that small but with the shrinkage they did on them, and how compact they are, the majority of the shots ARE going to miss but the lights MGs and lasers, arent, and they are sustaining it for many seconds on end, when even mechs with medium lasers are waiting an eternity to be able to shoot again.

I just see 15 guns with a damage rate typical ~ 1dmg/second with little or no recharge time, and no downsides (range isnt the downsides as the mechs speed, and the average engagement range are close enough to keep a light in the action almost all the time).

FFS machine guns are an anti-infantry gun in the Battletech, but a Pirahna or other mech with ~12 mg/micro lasers can rip off a leg in the time for a large laser to cycle? Its ridiculous!

You just have no idea how wrong you are on this statement. Now if this statement was made back in 2013 or even 14 yeah.... you might have a foundation, but now, in this current state, you are wrong on all accounts.

[Heavy Money]

YueFei, on 27 October 2022 - 05:18 PM, said:

Battletech "machine guns" are not anti-infantry. They are massive, not handheld or even crew-served weapons, with masses measured in tons, and are more equivalent to the real-life GAU-8 Avenger cannon, which is definitely an anti-armor weapon, not an anti-infantry weapon:

You'd think, but actually in BattleTech the machine gun is explicitly an anti infantry weapon. And the Piranha was specifically for anti infantry.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

MWO has made the decision to turn MGs into anti mech weapons too. Which is odd in some ways, but the alternative was for the weapon to be worthless. So they made the right call.

[YueFei]

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

You'd think, but actually in BattleTech the machine gun is explicitly an anti infantry weapon. And the Piranha was specifically for anti infantry.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

MWO has made the decision to turn MGs into anti mech weapons too. Which is odd in some ways, but the alternative was for the weapon to be worthless. So they made the right call.

Eh, it's not quite like that. The earliest edition of Battletech had no infantry in it at all, and yet already featured "machine guns" when there was no infantry to shoot at, only other mechs. Dealt 2 damage to mechs then, still does now. Even after all the changes over the years, that has still never changed. Does the same damage as an AC2, or an SRM missile.

Now yes, MGs are more effective against infantry than, say, trying to nail them with a Gauss rifle. Lots of little soft squishy targets that are dispersed means you want something with high rate-of-fire or a big boom, rather than massive pinpoint damage (that's complete overkill against 1 man) with a long reload time.

That doesn't mean MGs aren't intended for anti-armor work.

[martian]

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:26 PM, said:

When the hitboxes are that small, at the speed the mech is moving, a great deal of time, the pirahna (or other very small target) won't get hit. The size, and speed, are an armor all its own, and THEN theres the problems with registering a hit. The problem is that its still a 20 ton vehicle, which isnt all that small but with the shrinkage they did on them, and how compact they are, the majority of the shots ARE going to miss but the lights MGs and lasers, arent, and they are sustaining it for many seconds on end, when even mechs with medium lasers are waiting an eternity to be able to shoot again.

When you move to higher Tiers, you will see many players who can hit light 'Mechs quite reliably with all kinds of weapons - even with lasers.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:26 PM, said:

I just see 15 guns with a damage rate typical ~ 1dmg/second with little or no recharge time, and no downsides (range isnt the downsides as the mechs speed, and the average engagement range are close enough to keep a light in the action almost all the time).

As you will probably find out, the short range of MGs and ER Micro lasers can be a significant downside, if an average-skilled player can hit you on a few hundred metres, while you must close within 130-150 metres for your MGs or lasers to be effective.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:26 PM, said:

FFS machine guns are an anti-infantry gun in the Battletech, but a Pirahna or other mech with ~12 mg/micro lasers can rip off a leg in the time for a large laser to cycle? Its ridiculous!

1) Machine Guns in BattleTech are multipurpose weapons that can damage both infantry and other combat units.

They do 2 points of damage against BattleMechs and combat vehicles. Check the record sheet:


2) Your Large laser has the effective range of 480 metres and you are probably not carrying just one on your heavy or assault 'Mech. The Piranha's Clan ER Micro laser has the effective range of 150 metres, i.e. three times less than your Large laser.

Edited by martian, 27 October 2022 - 11:56 PM.

[LowBob2000]

There is a simple solution to this. If you cant fight them, join them.
I play lights more and more because they are very, very good. My best mech in the game is a f***ing KFX-PURIFIER with 6 ERMeds followed by the Javelin with 7 ERMeds. Your game experience is so much better because:
- you can play every map
- you can play every game mode
- nascar is not a problem for you
- you can play with or without your team
- you decide when and where to fight
- most of the time you live longer than your assaults/heavies
- you are not a priority target so long the enemy can farm your assaults/heavies
For me lights and lower mediums are the best mechs in the game. I dont want to play assaults anymore because they are no fun at all. Fast heavies are ok but i like KFX more. So in the end you have to deal with the lights and their weapons and from my perspective you have 3 options:
1. join them (as i did)
2. join Jgx Datas crusade to change/balance them (some links how you should play lights or why lights are op:


)
3. leave the game (as my colleague did)

PS: please don't use the table top rules in this discussion. Its a totally different system and you can't compare a turnbased ruleset with the rules in a FPShooter

Edited by LowBob2000, 28 October 2022 - 12:36 AM.

[evil kerensky]

im just gonna say, theres a reason that every comp team thats messing around in soup que enjoys running 4 mistlynx-g's/pirahnas/arcticcheetahs/vipers, and it isnt because they enjoy losing or using suboptimal builds. food for thought.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 01:09 AM, said:

im just gonna say, theres a reason that every comp team thats messing around in soup que enjoys running 4 mistlynx-g's/pirahnas/arcticcheetahs/vipers, and it isnt because they enjoy losing or using suboptimal builds. food for thought.

And your source for this "every comp team does..."? My own anecdotal evidence says quite the contrary.

[martian]

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 01:09 AM, said:

im just gonna say, theres a reason that every comp team thats messing around in soup que enjoys running 4 mistlynx-g's/pirahnas/arcticcheetahs/vipers, and it isnt because they enjoy losing or using suboptimal builds. food for thought.

I can not remember seeing "every comp team thats messing around in soup que enjoys running 4 mistlynx-g's/pirahnas/arcticcheetahs/vipers".

Perhaps you could post some screenshots showing such behaviour? I mean, surely you have many such screenshots, if those premades have been doing it as often as you say.

Edited by martian, 28 October 2022 - 04:13 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes, a person needs to build a particular build, just to counter lights; the question is why are people having to build heavies and assaults JUST to do that? The fact that one needs to do that, is an indication that there is a problem.

That is simply not true. Sure, some builds are less suited to kill lights...laser boats, LRM boats with no backup weapons etc.

And your question if lights have to choose a certain build to counter a mech class is a strawman. How many reasonable build options does a light mech have?
There are maps where a close-range light, and most of them are that, simply has to sit and wait till the lines break up. It also has to choose its engagements usually carefully

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:12 PM, said:

No sure what your point is. I level up all of my mechs by earning the skill points, thats a bit of the reason why my score is fairly low.

The point is that if lights are so op, your stats should be better, leveling or not



Regarding your argument with the size of certain 20t mechs...yes, I agree with you. On the other hand, though, the 35t mechs are large enough to rival medium mechs and are too easy to hit. I don't like it either but it seems a kind of trade-off. That and a 20t mech getting hit by one of those nasty pinpoint alphas is in real trouble

Edited by Weeny Machine, 28 October 2022 - 02:04 AM.

[Curccu]

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:03 PM, said:

Not only that but what Pirahna pilot isnt going to be the decider in the where/when/how engagement against a Boom Jager?

Sure it can...
...but when it does it can die with one or two push of a button easily.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:

Yes, a person needs to build a particular build, just to counter lights; the question is why are people having to build heavies and assaults JUST to do that? The fact that one needs to do that, is an indication that there is a problem.

No, a person does not need specialized build to kill lights, there are only FEW (read LRMs and ATMs) weapons that are unable to take down piranha if it has entered to MG range.
All ACs, Lasers, PPCs excluding heavy, Missiles (excluding those two mentioned above) are very capable to take down piranha. Piranha doesn't have masc or JJs which would actually make hitting it hard and has that required 100% facetime requirement, which usually makes it only matter of time when not if it gets blasted to smithereens.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:26 PM, said:

When the hitboxes are that small, at the speed the mech is moving, a great deal of time, the pirahna (or other very small target) won't get hit. The size, and speed, are an armor all its own, and THEN theres the problems with registering a hit. The problem is that its still a 20 ton vehicle, which isnt all that small but with the shrinkage they did on them, and how compact they are, the majority of the shots ARE going to miss but the lights MGs and lasers, arent, and they are sustaining it for many seconds on end, when even mechs with medium lasers are waiting an eternity to be able to shoot again.

Hitreg issues are usually just player aim issues, hard to believe that 2022 most of the players would have internet with bad packet loss which is usually only real reason for hit reg issues.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:03 PM, said:

I just see 15 guns with a damage rate typical ~ 1dmg/second with little or no recharge time, and no downsides (range isnt the downsides as the mechs speed, and the average engagement range are close enough to keep a light in the action almost all the time).

Range and Health are huge downsides.

Whamhammer, on 27 October 2022 - 04:03 PM, said:

FFS machine guns are an anti-infantry gun in the Battletech, but a Pirahna or other mech with ~12 mg/micro lasers can rip off a leg in the time for a large laser to cycle? Its ridiculous!

See my next reply to Heavy Money in this post

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

You'd think, but actually in BattleTech the machine gun is explicitly an anti infantry weapon. And the Piranha was specifically for anti infantry.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha
MWO has made the decision to turn MGs into anti mech weapons too. Which is odd in some ways, but the alternative was for the weapon to be worthless. So they made the right call.

There is slight Error in your alternate fact.
Original battletech had machineguns and mechs, but no infantry.
With that you can probably see that it cannot be explicitly anti-infantry weapon as there was no infantry in game rules.

If you check list of machineguns on sarna you can see 20mm_Gatling_Gun in there, yeah it is not gau-8 which is 30mm but instead M61_Vulcan which is only 20mm with insane ROF and one could say that it can mess up a lot of stuff easily but most likely infantry will take that extra damage as in BT because kewlars aren't doing anything against that kind of projectile.
PS. and it only weights less than half what clan LMG MG weights.

Edited by Curccu, 28 October 2022 - 04:18 AM.

[Whamhammer]

Darian DelFord, on 27 October 2022 - 06:06 PM, said:

Hello I'm Darian DelFord Proud Forum Warrior since these forums have been up and running. You are the 184,605 person to register on July 10th, 2012. Meaning you have at least seen the game. However your Jarls List only goes back to November of 21, which is where the above stats came from someone quoted. This tells us a few things about your view point.

Such as you being regiested on these forums and at the time of this post had only posted twice. Add that to your Jarl stats, granted at least you play lights, and the conclusion is a click bait post with your OP.

Look below for further validation






And what about the Dual Guass and Dual ER PPC builds that can one shot you at 600+ meters. Or in fact any of the PPC spam that is swarming the field. Also lets not forget about AC boats, or the Laser boats, all of which can easily blast a 50ish point alpha. One hit from that and ANY light is toast. However your example of a BOOM Jager, Max range on a boating Piranha as you have put out there is what 200ish meters with an alpha tops what 30ish if its a micro pulse laser build? Now pretty sure the Boom Jager is at least a 40 point alpha to what 300 meters? So my question is, whats your point?




Ummmm hate to break this to you, but just about ANY build for a heavy or an assault is an anti light build. All you have to do is hit them once and they are all but wasted.




Your score low honestly means nothing to me. I personally look at length of time playing the game, mech class, and lesser extent match score. Granted you at least play lights, according to Jarl's anyways. Your stats tell me, you have not mastered the game yet, and there is nothing wrong with that. Even dedicated light pilots have a tough time of it. I have never liked the way PGI has dumped 50% of your match score to be damage. That puts light mechs at a severe disadvantage.





You just have no idea how wrong you are on this statement. Now if this statement was made back in 2013 or even 14 yeah.... you might have a foundation, but now, in this current state, you are wrong on all accounts.

I don't care how long you have been posting, its obvious that you don't have the capacity to truly identify if someone has a valid point or not.

Hell, you are acting like every response in this thread that I have made was straight to you, not a good sign of competency. Proof of length of time in a forum not leading to competency. Maybe you can restructure the rest of your s statement around the responses that they were to, then you might be able to make some points. Other than your "intro" your making jibberish.

[Whamhammer]

YueFei, on 27 October 2022 - 05:18 PM, said:

Battletech "machine guns" are not anti-infantry. They are massive, not handheld or even crew-served weapons, with masses measured in tons, and are more equivalent to the real-life GAU-8 Avenger cannon, which is definitely an anti-armor weapon, not an anti-infantry weapon:

Batteltech has SPECIFICALLY pointed to machine guns having a primary purpose of anti-infantry; machine guns and flamers jobs are to take out infantry, and in a pinch, be added to anti-mech weapons against mechs and armor. The Pirahna's TRO SPECIFICALLY pointed the Pirahna's job as anti-infantry.Battletech machineguns are .5 tons (1/4 ton for Clan), for all of the equipment needed to mount and use them in a mech. Battletech only measured things in 1/2 tons until Clan Machine guns, and then later Proto-Mechs and their equipment.

The GAU8 is actually a CANNON, not a machine gun, the same as the M61. One leaves machinegun land, when going beyond the M2 .50 cal.

I have no idea what filled your head with what you posted, but its flat out wrong.

[Whamhammer]

Curccu, on 28 October 2022 - 04:16 AM, said:

Sure it can...
...but when it does it can die with one or two push of a button easily.


No, a person does not need specialized build to kill lights, there are only FEW (read LRMs and ATMs) weapons that are unable to take down piranha if it has entered to MG range.
All ACs, Lasers, PPCs excluding heavy, Missiles (excluding those two mentioned above) are very capable to take down piranha. Piranha doesn't have masc or JJs which would actually make hitting it hard and has that required 100% facetime requirement, which usually makes it only matter of time when not if it gets blasted to smithereens.


Hitreg issues are usually just player aim issues, hard to believe that 2022 most of the players would have internet with bad packet loss which is usually only real reason for hit reg issues.


Range and Health are huge downsides.


See my next reply to Heavy Money in this post



There is slight Error in your alternate fact.
Original battletech had machineguns and mechs, but no infantry.
With that you can probably see that it cannot be explicitly anti-infantry weapon as there was no infantry in game rules.

If you check list of machineguns on sarna you can see 20mm_Gatling_Gun in there, yeah it is not gau-8 which is 30mm but instead M61_Vulcan which is only 20mm with insane ROF and one could say that it can mess up a lot of stuff easily but most likely infantry will take that extra damage as in BT because kewlars aren't doing anything against that kind of projectile.
PS. and it only weights less than half what clan LMG MG weights.

Actually, Battletech has ALWAYS had infantry, Battledroids didnt.

I dont need Sarna, I have the original game books, from before there was an internet. They pointed towars .30 and .50 cal's for machine guns.

Alternate facts my A$$. Remember flamers? They only did 2 damage, no heat to mechs (until alternate rules), what pretell were there purpose, when they had no advantage over Small Lasers?


And range and size are not a downside when one is doing 15 dps, the speed to do it, the size to minimize the amount of incoming fire to hit, most of the guns in the torso's, arms to throw away, no heat or jamming penalties of holding down the trigger and spam fire. This is especially considering their maneuverability. They dont even need to aim.

Most of the lights played in the matches are Fleas, Pirhanas, and one or two hgih quantity machine gun focused mechs, and the others are a rarity? Why is that? Because they are a crutch setup because they are broken/

Edited by Whamhammer, 28 October 2022 - 01:17 PM.

[Whamhammer]

martian, on 27 October 2022 - 11:49 PM, said:

When you move to higher Tiers, you will see many players who can hit light 'Mechs quite reliably with all kinds of weapons - even with lasers.



As you will probably find out, the short range of MGs and ER Micro lasers can be a significant downside, if an average-skilled player can hit you on a few hundred metres, while you must close within 130-150 metres for your MGs or lasers to be effective.



1) Machine Guns in BattleTech are multipurpose weapons that can damage both infantry and other combat units.

They do 2 points of damage against BattleMechs and combat vehicles. Check the record sheet:


2) Your Large laser has the effective range of 480 metres and you are probably not carrying just one on your heavy or assault 'Mech. The Piranha's Clan ER Micro laser has the effective range of 150 metres, i.e. three times less than your Large laser.

Yes, machine guns do 2 points of damage, but they are still an anti-infantry weapon, the game actually points it out, both in mech TRO's and the rules sets, just as the flamer, which also does two points of damage (imagine that).

The large laser does 8 points of damage, and requires the ability to dissipate 8 heat (between 4 to 8 tons of heat sink), every times it fires. Except that in MWO, the machine gun is doing more than 4 damage in the time the large laser can fire again, so is doing half the damage for less than a tenth of the weight, and its probable that the laser is hitting two spots instead of one. How many half tons of ammo is needed to support a 12-15 MG mech, especially with the buffs given to many of them?

Data has said it many times, the mechanics on this game have been skewed to make lights far more effective on the field than they should, to the points where most mediums are a joke, and the moronic NASCARing bones over all but the fastest mechs.

If they slowed the ROF or DPS to reflect the tabletop damage capacity, I could see an argument for the heavy use of machine guns and lighter weapons but the ROF and the way they have to heat working in the game is utter BS.

The cooldowns and DPS need to be heavily fixed. Then, maybe mechs like the Javelin, and Panther would actually be fielded more than once in a blue moon.

ANd the fact that someone has to worry about a Pirhana getting into MG range is the point about the whole thing, it is more dangearous than it should be, and best handled by LRMing it do death.

Put a Pirhana in front of most mechs on the tabletop, and no one is going to be worried about it, its not a mech killer.

Edited by Whamhammer, 28 October 2022 - 01:36 PM.

[martian]

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

You'd think, but actually in BattleTech the machine gun is explicitly an anti infantry weapon.

You can check Total Warfare, if you wish, but there is nothing forbidding you from using your 'Mech's machine gun to attack enemy 'Mechs, tanks, etc.

Machine gun is a weapon just like any other, albeit with the added anti-infantry bonus.

The offical record sheets specifically show that Machine Gun does 2 points of damage against 'Mechs, combat vehicles, etc.

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

And the Piranha was specifically for anti infantry.

The original Technical Readout: 3058 specifically says that "Such a large array of machine guns can be deadly to units twice the Piranha's size, especially if the small 'Mech can run behind the enemy." and I am quite certain that they do not mean some 40-ton infantryman.

I would like to mention that this is the first thing mentioned in that section of the TRO.

The Upgraded edition of the same Technical Readout then mentions the Piranha 2's victory over Clan 85-ton Assault 'Mech.

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

Sarna is not the "actual" BattleTech. Sarna is just a fan page that every random passerby can edit.

Materials published by FASA, FanPro and CGL are the "actual" BattleTech.

Heavy Money, on 27 October 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

MWO has made the decision to turn MGs into anti mech weapons too. Which is odd in some ways, but the alternative was for the weapon to be worthless. So they made the right call.

The decision has been made long before that. The previous MechWarrior games had anti-Mech machine guns too. I remember one fan-designed loadout from MechWarrior 2 that consisted of nothing but Machine Guns. Lots of damage, zero heat.

[martian]

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Yes, machine guns do 2 points of damage, but they are still an anti-infantry weapon, the game actually points it out, both in mech TRO's and the rules sets, just as the flamer, which also does two points of damage (imagine that).

Total Warfare lets the player use machine guns and flamers against any target, unless specifically forbidden.

In BattleTech, MGs and flamers are just like any other BattleMech weapon, albeit with specific anti-infantry bonuses.

They are perfectly valid weapons for anti-BattleMech and anti-vehicle use.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

The large laser does 8 points of damage, and requires the ability to dissipate 8 heat (between 4 to 8 tons of heat sink), every times it fires. Except that in MWO, the machine gun is doing more than 4 damage in the time the large laser can fire again, so is doing half the damage for less than a tenth of the weight, and its probable that the laser is hitting two spots instead of one. How many half tons of ammo is needed to support a 12-15 MG mech, especially with the buffs given to many of them?

I guess that you missed that part of my post where I mentioned that the effective range of your Large lasers is 480 m, while enemy light 'Mech must close to 130 m. LPLs, ER Large lasers, PPCs, Autocannons, missiles ... they all can kill, cripple or deterr enemy light 'Mech before it can get close enough to scratch your 'Mech's paint.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Data has said it many times, the mechanics on this game have been skewed to make lights far more effective on the field than they should, to the points where most mediums are a joke, and the moronic NASCARing bones over all but the fastest mechs.

Medium 'Mech class includes both strong and weak 'Mechs, but I do not think that most mediums are a joke.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

If they slowed the ROF or DPS to reflect the tabletop damage capacity, I could see an argument for the heavy use of machine guns and lighter weapons but the ROF and the way they have to heat working in the game is utter BS.

You are forgetting to mention the tiny effective range of machine guns. What use are machine guns, if a light 'Mech pilot can not get close enough (from one reason or another) to effectively use them? Compare it with large guns that can threaten enemy 'Mechs of all sizes (light 'Mech included) in the wide area.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

The cooldowns and DPS need to be heavily fixed. Then, maybe mechs like the Javelin, and Panther would actually be fielded more than once in a blue moon.

Actually, I have seen a number of Javelins since the morning.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

ANd the fact that someone has to worry about a Pirhana getting into MG range is the point about the whole thing, it is more dangearous than it should be, and best handled by LRMing it do death.

I really do not think that LRMs are the best weapon for fighting light 'Mechs in general and Piranhas in particular. But if you truly think so, I will not stop you.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Put a Pirhana in front of most mechs on the tabletop, and no one is going to be worried about it, its not a mech killer.

LOL

Not really.

Fast 'Mech that can dish out 43 point of damage into the enemy 'Mech's back .... and with the acceptable heat. I would deploy it any day as a part of my force, since Piranha is effective against all kinds of targets - 'Mechs, tanks, Battle Armor, infantry, etc.

[Whamhammer]

martian, on 28 October 2022 - 02:21 PM, said:

Total Warfare lets the player use machine guns and flamers against any target, unless specifically forbidden.

In BattleTech, MGs and flamers are just like any other BattleMech weapon, albeit with specific anti-infantry bonuses.

They are perfectly valid weapons for anti-BattleMech and anti-vehicle use.



I guess that you missed that part of my post where I mentioned that the effective range of your Large lasers is 480 m, while enemy light 'Mech must close to 130 m. LPLs, ER Large lasers, PPCs, Autocannons, missiles ... they all can kill, cripple or deterr enemy light 'Mech before it can get close enough to scratch your 'Mech's paint.



Medium 'Mech class includes both strong and weak 'Mechs, but I do not think that most mediums are a joke.



You are forgetting to mention the tiny effective range of machine guns. What use are machine guns, if a light 'Mech pilot can not get close enough (from one reason or another) to effectively use them? Compare it with large guns that can threaten enemy 'Mechs of all sizes (light 'Mech included) in the wide area.



Actually, I have seen a number of Javelins since the morning.



I really do not think that LRMs are the best weapon for fighting light 'Mechs in general and Piranhas in particular. But if you truly think so, I will not stop you.



LOL

Not really.

Fast 'Mech that can dish out 43 point of damage into the enemy 'Mech's back .... and with the acceptable heat. I would deploy it any day as a part of my force, since Piranha is effective against all kinds of targets - 'Mechs, tanks, Battle Armor, infantry, etc.

Are you extremely dense? "Its not forbidden to use MG against mechs". So f'ing what? That doesnt make a MG a primary anti-armor/anti-mech weapon.

Yes, if someone is lucky enough, MGS can take out a mech in Battletech, if someone is lucky enough, an infantryman with a rifle, can take out a plane, in real life, if they are lucky enough too. So what? Its not a primary anit-mech weapon, no matter how much you dream about it.

The TRO talks about a PACK of Pirhanas, not one.

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY GOD!!!!!!!!!!! You mean that people can shoot things at more than one kind of thing? WOW. We got a regular Rhodes Scholar here guys!


And yes, most of the medium mech in this game are a joke, because their level of firepower is made moot by the way the cool down cycle is made. And whoopdie do, you saw some Javins, probably crutch boy MG ones, how many Pirhanas, Fleas, and MG VOF Crutch lights did you see? I bet more than you saw Javelins.

I dont care about the range of MG's, the mechs are fast enough to cover the distance, the average engagement range puts MG close enough to put 15 f'ing of them to use.


In tabletop, the randomness of shot placement, makes Pirhanas not a threat, and the regular Pirahna sprays all over the place, hitting mostly both legs and both arms, making them less than lethal.

The MGs and Micros in the game are abused in high vof lights, I don't care how much you want to rationalize it.

I am not spending another dollar on the game until things get fixed, or the game gets shut down, whichever is first. With the way that the game is bleeding players, and that the Dev's cant keep or hire staff, that wont be long.

Maybe a Dev team, that has actually played tabletop, and realize how stupid this Dev team is for its coldowns/rof BS can make a game that isnt run by cancerous light mech crutch-boy players.

Finis'

[ScrapIron Prime]

As has been stated before, this isn’t tabletop. A random die roll to hit a random hit location and every weapon fires exactly once every ten seconds? No one would play a First Person Shooter like that.

In tabletop, the piranha is death incarnate to infantry, but against a mech it is merely a threat. At BEST the piranha hits with 50% of its machine guns to random hit locations, and that requires it to close to a range of 1 hex, where the enemy can react by turning around and kicking the piranha… resulting in an automatic leg lost for a kick from any mech 50 tons or heavier. (Maybe 1 time in 4, counting initiative order and hit roll…)

MWO is just based on that game. And yes, massed machine guns can be troublesome, but 30 points of pinpoint damage takes a piranha apart in just a couple hits.

[Curccu]

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

And range and size are not a downside when one is doing 15 dps, the speed to do it, the size to minimize the amount of incoming fire to hit, most of the guns in the torso's, arms to throw away, no heat or jamming penalties of holding down the trigger and spam fire. This is especially considering their maneuverability. They dont even need to aim.

Of course they are downsides if they wouldn't be my piranha would have 100% win ratio.
If you don't aim you don't do killing stuff just spread damage all over the mech and surrounding terrain and quickly realize you are out of ammo.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Most of the lights played in the matches are Fleas, Pirhanas, and one or two hgih quantity machine gun focused mechs, and the others are a rarity? Why is that? Because they are a crutch setup because they are broken/

Why don't you play Piranha for a month and tell us after that month after your stats have skyrocketed to 99 percentile that Piranha and every other MG light is OP.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Yes, machine guns do 2 points of damage, but they are still an anti-infantry weapon, the game actually points it out, both in mech TRO's and the rules sets, just as the flamer, which also does two points of damage (imagine that).

Why do you think they are anti-infantry weapons if they do damage against armored targets? Does your AR/AK/SAW/PKM(something else we call anti-infantry weapons) do damage to MBTs?

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

The large laser does 8 points of damage, and requires the ability to dissipate 8 heat (between 4 to 8 tons of heat sink), every times it fires. Except that in MWO, the machine gun is doing more than 4 damage in the time the large laser can fire again, so is doing half the damage for less than a tenth of the weight, and its probable that the laser is hitting two spots instead of one. How many half tons of ammo is needed to support a 12-15 MG mech, especially with the buffs given to many of them?

Large laser can shoot multiple times before piranha even gets into range and as Martian said you usually don't have just one of those... maybe 5? aim that alpha to legs and oh your poor piranha will never get to shoot once because it has only one leg and is 500m away from enemy.

How many half tons? I would prefer 8 or more half tons but piranha cannot really fit that many and most of the games runs out of ammo. Would you like to point out any mech with more than 8 ballistic slots that has ammo quirk for MGs?
what 13-15MG mechs are you talking about?

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Data has said it many times, the mechanics on this game have been skewed to make lights far more effective on the field than they should, to the points where most mediums are a joke, and the moronic NASCARing bones over all but the fastest mechs.

Data has said lot of s***, hes good player but his opinions are heavily biased towards his beloved assault mechs.
And yes most battletech mech designs are total **** but that is not really PGIs fault is it?

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

The cooldowns and DPS need to be heavily fixed. Then, maybe mechs like the Javelin, and Panther would actually be fielded more than once in a blue moon.

Brawl javelin will mess you up as easily except it has JJs and doesn't require constant facetime.
Katana Kat is awesome light mech.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

ANd the fact that someone has to worry about a Pirhana getting into MG range is the point about the whole thing, it is more dangearous than it should be, and best handled by LRMing it do death.

Fact that you need to worry any brawl range mech getting into range because all of those have pretty damn good DPS and or burst damage.
FYI laser piranha is way easier to play and survive.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 01:03 PM, said:

The GAU8 is actually a CANNON, not a machine gun, the same as the M61. One leaves machinegun land, when going beyond the M2 .50 cal. I have no idea what filled your head with what you posted, but its flat out wrong.

Take down MBT with .50 cal, with BT MG you can. So it is not some teeny-weeny our standard MG, heck it does weight half a ton.

[Whamhammer]

Not going to be my problem anymore, the mental gymnastics being thrown to support the crutch-mech builds, alongside the crappy level of player teamwork out there, just reinforce the BS cancer that this game has become.

I played the game for a bit when it first came out, it was garbage, came back a year ago, and tried to make it work. Its crap, the meta is stupid, NASCAR fools are even worse.

I wanted to play a game in the Batteltech universe, not crippy-boy online.

I quit, and no, you can't haz my stuff.