121 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

And yes, most of the medium mech in this game are a joke, because their level of firepower is made moot by the way the cool down cycle is made. And whoopdie do, you saw some Javins, probably crutch boy MG ones, how many Pirhanas, Fleas, and MG VOF Crutch lights did you see? I bet more than you saw Javelins.

I dont care about the range of MG's, the mechs are fast enough to cover the distance, the average engagement range puts MG close enough to put 15 f'ing of them to use.

In tabletop, the randomness of shot placement, makes Pirhanas not a threat, and the regular Pirahna sprays all over the place, hitting mostly both legs and both arms, making them less than lethal.

The MGs and Micros in the game are abused in high vof lights, I don't care how much you want to rationalize it.

I am not spending another dollar on the game until things get fixed, or the game gets shut down, whichever is first. With the way that the game is bleeding players, and that the Dev's cant keep or hire staff, that wont be long.

Maybe a Dev team, that has actually played tabletop, and realize how stupid this Dev team is for its coldowns/rof BS can make a game that isnt run by cancerous light mech crutch-boy players.

Finis'

Yes you don't care about range or how easily piranhas are killed/disabled, maybe you should. It's called balancing... they are good at something and very weak at something.

Have you considered this is not MG is issue instead you issue?
Maybe some good old L2P or more specific L2Aim would make you better at killing piranhas. And yes legendary stat shaming when nothing else works you are not very good at this game https://leaderboard....ch?u=Whamhammer

[evil kerensky]

Curccu, on 28 October 2022 - 03:17 PM, said:

Yes you don't care about range or how easily piranhas are killed/disabled, maybe you should. It's called balancing... they are good at something and very weak at something.

Have you considered this is not MG is issue instead you issue?
Maybe some good old L2P or more specific L2Aim would make you better at killing piranhas. And yes legendary stat shaming when nothing else works you are not very good at this game https://leaderboard....ch?u=Whamhammer

Lol, stat shaming.

Bruh, it's basic math. Look at the dps of a piranha on mech db. Then look at the dps of literally any other build. Most of the time the piranha is going to have both a higher sustain and a higher max dps most of the time. Each machine gun is 1dps with negligible heat. Why do you think the crael was so feared during the heavies 1v1 event in September? It's because it boats high dps, low heat weapons.

And ya, perfect aim with a ppfld build stops the lights most of the time, when you see them coming. But if you don't see them coming, or you don't have perfect aim, or (and this is the big one) you don't have a ppfld build with <31dmg alpha then you are gonna lose. Because you don't get a second shot once theyre leg humping you (torso doesn't depress enough on most mechs).

So, you got a few mechs that do more sustained dps than any other mech, they are impossible to shoot once they hit their intended engagement range, and they are so small and fast that getting to that engagement range is a non issue unless they are facing a build that can 1 shot them AND the enemy player is exceptionally good. That's a problem in the game design. And that's before you take into account the fact that a good light pilot will never even be spotted until their in that OP engagement zone because cover exists.

This was never a problem in the old days because nothing under 100tons could mount more than 6 machine guns, so they got buffed to be somewhat usable in that quantity. But now that people can take 10+, there's a problem. Notice that pgi didn't launch the piranha until right before they gave up on mwo the first time? That's a hint. All the machine gun boats came out as a last ditch money grab from Russ, who thought he'd sell an op mech to get his yacht paid off, and no one fixed it after.

[Bulletsponge0]

Whamhammer, on 10 October 2022 - 03:04 PM, said:

I am curious as to what the mindset is for the dev's to build light mechs with 12-15 hardpoints, and allow them to have lightweight, low/no heat, extreme short cycle time, with high speed and extremely small hitboxes and surface area to hit.

I don't really see much of a downside to these mechs, especially the Pirahna, Mist Lynx, and Flea, and many of them not only have alphas has that beat out some heavies/assaults, but also have cyclic rates that are nonsensical. Having to get into close range is not an issue for these mechs, as LRM's were pretty much the best way to take them down, but all of the ECM and AMS has pretty much neutered individual and unsupported LRM build.

It's pretty obvious that these sort of mechs are abused, as they tend to be in every match, in multitudes and overly easy to outscore mechs three times their weight.

Can we have some kneecapping on mega mass-MG's and small-micro lasers?

I've been playing this game a long time now. But I must have missed the era when LRMs were the best weapon to kill lights.

[Darian DelFord]

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 12:50 PM, said:

I don't care how long you have been posting, its obvious that you don't have the capacity to truly identify if someone has a valid point or not.

Hell, you are acting like every response in this thread that I have made was straight to you, not a good sign of competency. Proof of length of time in a forum not leading to competency. Maybe you can restructure the rest of your s statement around the responses that they were to, then you might be able to make some points. Other than your "intro" your making jibberish.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 03:15 PM, said:

Not going to be my problem anymore, the mental gymnastics being thrown to support the crutch-mech builds, alongside the crappy level of player teamwork out there, just reinforce the BS cancer that this game has become.

I played the game for a bit when it first came out, it was garbage, came back a year ago, and tried to make it work. Its crap, the meta is stupid, NASCAR fools are even worse.

I wanted to play a game in the Batteltech universe, not crippy-boy online.

I quit, and no, you can't haz my stuff.

ROFL and you just proved all our points

[martian]

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

Are you extremely dense? "Its not forbidden to use MG against mechs". So f'ing what? That doesnt make a MG a primary anti-armor/anti-mech weapon.

Total Warfare knows no "primary anti-armor/anti-mech weapon". This is your own idea.

Feel free to post the exact page and/or quote where Total Warfare mentions some "primary anti-armor/anti-mech weapons".

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

Yes, if someone is lucky enough, MGS can take out a mech in Battletech, if someone is lucky enough, an infantryman with a rifle, can take out a plane, in real life, if they are lucky enough too. So what? Its not a primary anit-mech weapon, no matter how much you dream about it.

Total Warfare knows no "primary anti-mech weapon". This is your own idea.

Feel free to post the exact page and/or quote where Total Warfare mentions some ""primary anti-mech weapons""

As I said in my previous post, players are free to use any weapon they have, against any target they see (unless specifically forbidden by the rules).

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

The TRO talks about a PACK of Pirhanas, not one.

1) I checked the original TRO and it really does not say that the Piranha must operate in packs every single time. This is your own idea.

It merely says that operating in groups would probably be better.

2) The original TRO then continues with "[As for using the pack tactics]... none have been sighted attacking in such a way."

The individual Piranha attacks are absolutely okay both in BattleTech and in MWO.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY GOD!!!!!!!!!!! You mean that people can shoot things at more than one kind of thing? WOW. We got a regular Rhodes Scholar here guys!

I merely told you how the things work in BattleTech, according to the Total Warfare ruleset.

Perhaps you should return when you are better.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

And yes, most of the medium mech in this game are a joke, because their level of firepower is made moot by the way the cool down cycle is made. And whoopdie do, you saw some Javins, probably crutch boy MG ones, how many Pirhanas, Fleas, and MG VOF Crutch lights did you see? I bet more than you saw Javelins.

Actually, I saw SRM Javelins and of course JVN-11A Javelin that PGI gave away a few months ago.

On the other hand, I did not see the "crutch boy MG ones".

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

I dont care about the range of MG's, the mechs are fast enough to cover the distance, the average engagement range puts MG close enough to put 15 f'ing of them to use.

This is why you must maintain good situational awareness and look around to spot enemy light 'Mechs, so you can use your big guns to kill them before they can get close enough.

By the way, how many MWO 'Mechs can carry 15 machine guns?

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

In tabletop, the randomness of shot placement, makes Pirhanas not a threat, and the regular Pirahna sprays all over the place, hitting mostly both legs and both arms, making them less than lethal.

If you think that a fast Clan 'Mech, that is capable of dishing out 43 damage, is not a threat in BattleTech ...

I wonde how successful you are in BattleTech.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

The MGs and Micros in the game are abused in high vof lights, I don't care how much you want to rationalize it.

If those "high vof lights" are so good, why do they often end the game with the low Match Score?

If those "high vof lights" are so good, why is not the queue full of "high vof lights", "exploiting" their advantage?

If those "high vof lights" are so good, why are both teams often composed of assault, heavy and medium 'Mechs, with one or two token light 'Mechs on both sides (and those light 'Mechs are often not your "high vof lights")?

If those "high vof lights" are so good, why am I seeing top players in Blood Asp, Mad Cat Mk. II or Night Gyr and not in MG-boating Piranha or MG-boating Flea?

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

I am not spending another dollar on the game until things get fixed, or the game gets shut down, whichever is first. With the way that the game is bleeding players, and that the Dev's cant keep or hire staff, that wont be long.

With "until things get fixed", do you actually mean "until the game is changed to suit my personal needs"? This could be a long waiting. And if it really happens, the players will just switch to a different 'Mech/weapon combo.

Whamhammer, on 28 October 2022 - 02:50 PM, said:

Maybe a Dev team, that has actually played tabletop, and realize how stupid this Dev team is for its coldowns/rof BS can make a game that isnt run by cancerous light mech crutch-boy players.

Finis'

Just buy PIR-1 Piranha and run it exclusively for a month. Make screenshot of every game - of course, you can record videos too, so we have something to talk about. I guess that you will return as T1 player in a month, if the Piranha is so OP and easy to play as you said.

Edited by martian, 28 October 2022 - 11:01 PM.

[Curccu]

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 05:23 PM, said:

Lol, stat shaming.

Bruh, it's basic math. Look at the dps of a piranha on mech db. Then look at the dps of literally any other build. Most of the time the piranha is going to have both a higher sustain and a higher max dps most of the time. Each machine gun is 1dps with negligible heat. Why do you think the crael was so feared during the heavies 1v1 event in September? It's because it boats high dps, low heat weapons.

And ya, perfect aim with a ppfld build stops the lights most of the time, when you see them coming. But if you don't see them coming, or you don't have perfect aim, or (and this is the big one) you don't have a ppfld build with <31dmg alpha then you are gonna lose. Because you don't get a second shot once theyre leg humping you (torso doesn't depress enough on most mechs).

So, you got a few mechs that do more sustained dps than any other mech, they are impossible to shoot once they hit their intended engagement range, and they are so small and fast that getting to that engagement range is a non issue unless they are facing a build that can 1 shot them AND the enemy player is exceptionally good. That's a problem in the game design. And that's before you take into account the fact that a good light pilot will never even be spotted until their in that OP engagement zone because cover exists.

This was never a problem in the old days because nothing under 100tons could mount more than 6 machine guns, so they got buffed to be somewhat usable in that quantity. But now that people can take 10+, there's a problem. Notice that pgi didn't launch the piranha until right before they gave up on mwo the first time? That's a hint. All the machine gun boats came out as a last ditch money grab from Russ, who thought he'd sell an op mech to get his yacht paid off, and no one fixed it after.

Yes basic math why do you not see every tier flooded with them and everything getting owned if they are that op? Yes they have extremely good dps and sustained dps but require that face time, range and are fragile... balance.

If some of those humps your legs and you are just waiting 10 seconds to die there you can ask why are you alone in an assault mech? If you are not alone even **** player can hit that piranha when its humping legs because it does not have that speed anymore, BLAM dead.
So silly players doing silly things get eradicated because of their own foolishness.

PS. like I said, like many said including Martian up there take piranha to spin for a month and see how godly machine it is, post your results.

[martian]

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 05:23 PM, said:

Bruh, it's basic math. Look at the dps of a piranha on mech db. Then look at the dps of literally any other build. Most of the time the piranha is going to have both a higher sustain and a higher max dps most of the time. Each machine gun is 1dps with negligible heat.

DPS is not everything. Open the game client again and check the range of MGs. Mere 130 metres.

Then compare it with range of "big guns":

• Large laser - 480 m
  
• Large pulse laser - 400 m
  
• Extended-range Large laser - 740 m
  
• PPC - 540 m
  
• Heavy PPC - 540 m
  
• Extended-range PPC - 810 m
  
• AC-10 - 450 m
  
• etc.

Light 'Mechs do not like being hit from those weapons.

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 05:23 PM, said:

Why do you think the crael was so feared during the heavies 1v1 event in September? It's because it boats high dps, low heat weapons.

The Event Queue is opened from time to time. It uses specific rules and it takes the place on selected maps. The Event Queue is not a typical case of the MWO gameplay.

The most played MWO game mode - Quick Play - is not 1v1, but 12v12.

I wonder why the Quick Play is not flooded with "Craels". People, who preordered it, have it. Now everybody can buy it for in the Store. And yet, I do not meet them in every game.
Could it be because "Crael" is not as great in the Quick Play queue as you are making it out?

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 05:23 PM, said:

And ya, perfect aim with a ppfld build stops the lights most of the time, when you see them coming. But if you don't see them coming, or you don't have perfect aim, or (and this is the big one) you don't have a ppfld build with <31dmg alpha then you are gonna lose. Because you don't get a second shot once theyre leg humping you (torso doesn't depress enough on most mechs).

1) If you do not see them coming, you can always use your Seismic sensor or launch UAV.

2) You do not always need PPFLD build. Light 'Mechs do not like being scorched from lasers, they do not like being sandblasted from LBX Autocannons, etc.

3) Of course, you can use Streak SRMs.

4) The choice of a 'Mech in the Quick Play queue is yours and only yours. You can always take a 'Mech with arm-mounted weapons, if you wish.

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 05:23 PM, said:

So, you got a few mechs that do more sustained dps than any other mech, they are impossible to shoot once they hit their intended engagement range, and they are so small and fast that getting to that engagement range is a non issue unless they are facing a build that can 1 shot them AND the enemy player is exceptionally good. That's a problem in the game design. And that's before you take into account the fact that a good light pilot will never even be spotted until their in that OP engagement zone because cover exists.

MG-armed Flea and MG-armed Piranha can not be equipped with ECM. Thus, they can be seen on radar, especially if we consider that many MWO maps either lack cover or the cover is not when a light 'Mech pilot would need it.

There is one rule:
"Do not wander around the map alone, unless you really know what you are doing and unless you are really sure that you can defend yourself against enemy light 'Mech(s)!"

evil kerensky, on 28 October 2022 - 05:23 PM, said:

This was never a problem in the old days because nothing under 100tons could mount more than 6 machine guns, so they got buffed to be somewhat usable in that quantity. But now that people can take 10+, there's a problem. Notice that pgi didn't launch the piranha until right before they gave up on mwo the first time? That's a hint. All the machine gun boats came out as a last ditch money grab from Russ, who thought he'd sell an op mech to get his yacht paid off, and no one fixed it after.

And PGI launched two premiere assault 'Mechs - the Blood Asp and the Fafnir - "after" the Piranha.

By the way, if light 'Mechs in general and the Piranha in particular are so OP and easy to play as you say ...

How often have you played the Piranha (or any light 'Mechs in general)? What is your experience when piloting light 'Mechs and the Piranha?

[Seelenlos]

Whamhammer, on 12 October 2022 - 02:45 PM, said:

The Pirahna, on tabletop, is nowhere near as dangerous as it is in this game; machine guns and the lighter lasers have been boosted to an insane level. High quantity, high rate of fire/cyclic weapons have become far more dangerous than a pair of AC20's, high speed and small chassis and insanely smaller hitboxes, alongside weaker hit logic/sampling amplifies it even more so.

The Light Mechs are choosing when and just about where to engage, and when to disengage

I could see it if the cyclic rate/effective DPS was throttled down for the smaller/lighter weapons. In 9 seconds of fire, a Large IS) is capable of doing 18 damage, and 4 Small Lasers(IS) are capable of doing 45 damage, even if a mech missed a volley, the Small Lasers do 30 damage/ Five Clan MG's (plus .5T ammo) does 5 DPS for 45 damage as well, it keeps adding up, and getting worse, when 12-15 small weapons are introduced. The lack of heat penalties make it to shooting outside of optimal is rewarding as well and let's not talk about volume of fire benefits with critting.

Let's face it, the way things are set up, the incentive is to run faster, smaller, mechs with hit ROF smaller weapons.

All I want is to balance things out more, it will even make other lights, and mediums viable as well. It would also bring in more of the aspect of scouting for lighter mechs, and minimize faster murderballs that bleed off the slowest of the herd.

I tell it since they implemented it and are get banned and harrased.

This exactly is what makes it IMBA.

[Seelenlos]

martian, on 13 October 2022 - 10:34 AM, said:

The hitreg situation - especially when it comes to light 'Mechs - has improved significantly since 2012.

It is possible that some players - either consciously or subconsciously - have problems to admit that they could have missed that Piranha.

And of course, you do not have to focus a single component. The majority of light 'Mechs in MWO is so fragile that practically it does not matter too much what location exactly you hit:

• Leg? Legged light 'Mech is practically dead and many light 'Mech will die in the next 10 seconds or so.
  
• Side torso? IS light 'Mech usually dies and Clan light 'Mech is crippled.
  
• Center torso? Assault 'Mechs have often such alphas that if a light 'Mech does not die instantly, it will often end up with cherry red CT internals.
  
• Headshot? The usual location that light 'Mech remove armor from as to find some spare tonnage.
  
• If you are lucky when piloting a light 'Mech, you just lose your arm, often with some weapons or important equipment (such as the Kit Fox ECM / AMS arm)

This would be physically impossible on some 'Mechs. I mean, Catapult with its blocky arms can hardly do that.

That is absolutely not true!
You must record and see it, you leg a light Mech and it move and you only can kill it if you have high alpha, esle std hits are still not registered!

[Darian DelFord]

Seelenlos, on 29 October 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

That is absolutely not true!
You must record and see it, you leg a light Mech and it move and you only can kill it if you have high alpha, esle std hits are still not registered!

Ummmm I am sorry but if you can not kill a legged light mech with one alpha, well, now we know what the problem really is.

CASE IN POINT granted the video is old, but the one I go to.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 29 October 2022 - 05:55 AM.

[Seelenlos]

Darian DelFord, on 29 October 2022 - 05:52 AM, said:

Ummmm I am sorry but if you can not kill a legged light mech with one alpha, well, now we know what the problem really is.

CASE IN POINT granted the video is old, but the one I go to.

We had a Flea legged, and shooting its torso too k3 man with 3x ML, LL etc to take it out! Because of hit-delay and hit-box, and he moving!

So you see even though it should be as like the ML goes in 2 sides, it was distributed around his entire torso !

[Darian DelFord]

Seelenlos, on 29 October 2022 - 06:01 AM, said:

We had a Flea legged, and shooting its torso too k3 man with 3x ML, LL etc to take it out! Because of hit-delay and hit-box, and he moving!

So you see even though it should be as like the ML goes in 2 sides, it was distributed around his entire torso !

You are not doing yourself any favors.........

Shoot the other leg.

[Seelenlos]

Darian DelFord, on 29 October 2022 - 06:59 AM, said:

You are not doing yourself any favors.........

Shoot the other leg.

As always - like hinted in DATAs Video - always saying something around the problem, instead of pointing to it, still is not a wise approach, supremely vice versa.

[Weeny Machine]

To be fair: hitreg is not perfect. I put 5x3 LPPCs into an afk Javelin's BACK CT and it still stood.

[Darian DelFord]

Seelenlos, on 29 October 2022 - 07:02 AM, said:

As always - like hinted in DATAs Video - always saying something around the problem, instead of pointing to it, still is not a wise approach, supremely vice versa.

I am waiting for you to realize what the problem really is.

Weeny Machine, on 29 October 2022 - 07:03 AM, said:

To be fair: hitreg is not perfect. I put 5x3 LPPCs into an afk Javelin's BACK CT and it still stood.

once in a blue moon yes Hit Reg is a problem. Hit Reg is not a problem on a legged light mech.

[Hunka Junk]

Whamhammer, on 10 October 2022 - 03:04 PM, said:

I am curious as to what the mindset is for the dev's to build light mechs with 12-15 hardpoints, and allow them to have lightweight, low/no heat, extreme short cycle time, with high speed and extremely small hitboxes and surface area to hit.

I don't really see much of a downside to these mechs, especially the Pirahna, Mist Lynx, and Flea, and many of them not only have alphas has that beat out some heavies/assaults, but also have cyclic rates that are nonsensical. Having to get into close range is not an issue for these mechs, as LRM's were pretty much the best way to take them down, but all of the ECM and AMS has pretty much neutered individual and unsupported LRM build.

It's pretty obvious that these sort of mechs are abused, as they tend to be in every match, in multitudes and overly easy to outscore mechs three times their weight.

Can we have some kneecapping on mega mass-MG's and small-micro lasers?

So that means you can play them and reap fantastic rewards, right?

Or is it that, when you get in one, you die instantly.

That's why most people are mad about lights.

It's because they can't play them.

The only reason lights appear OP is because you have to be seriously good to not die in the first 5 minutes of the game in one.

[Darian DelFord]

Darian DelFord, on 29 October 2022 - 07:20 AM, said:

I am waiting for you to realize what the problem really is.

Ding Toast is Ready, on 29 October 2022 - 07:36 AM, said:

The problem is you are not shooting the other leg. You are dancing around an operator error issue claiming the product is defective as you proceed to ignore the instruction manual. My experience playing lights has been that when someone takes sufficient exception to my presence my mech gets removed regardless of how I feel about the matter. They are far from invincible even if they can be difficult to hit at times. You are a T1, get with the program. I absolutely do not CARE what DATA says, if people at MY LEVEL OF PLAY can shoot the ******* light so can you.

Hunka Junk, on 29 October 2022 - 07:44 AM, said:

So that means you can play them and reap fantastic rewards, right?

Or is it that, when you get in one, you die instantly.

That's why most people are mad about lights.

It's because they can't play them.

The only reason lights appear OP is because you have to be seriously good to not die in the first 5 minutes of the game in one.

Hint Hint, they just identified the problem for you.

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 29 October 2022 - 07:03 AM, said:

To be fair: hitreg is not perfect. I put 5x3 LPPCs into an afk Javelin's BACK CT and it still stood.

Afk or DC? it's known issue that disconnected mechs are sometimes not where they visually appear but hey those also do not shoot back and you can find out where that mech really locates, usually really close to visual appearance.

Seelenlos, on 29 October 2022 - 04:26 AM, said:

That is absolutely not true!
You must record and see it, you leg a light Mech and it move and you only can kill it if you have high alpha, esle std hits are still not registered!

Issue must be your bad internet connection then. I have never seen damage not registering well on legged light mech.

Darian DelFord, on 29 October 2022 - 06:59 AM, said:

Shoot the other leg.

But you gotta know difference of left and right to do that.... for some people it doesn't seem to be that easy.
Personally If I have high alpha mech (assault or heavy laser vomits for example) I just dump next alpha into head that they cannot twist behind that broken leg and they die by CT.

[Novakaine]

Learn to shoot at the hip sections of lights.
And circle the damn wagons like the old wild west days.
Worked then works now.
But when you are CODing it you can expect to get got.

[JediPanther]

You know which light mech sucks the most? The one you play when you get a team that isn't a team. I know i'm the best dam light mech player in the game but even 1 dmg can not be op in any mech. I went through fifty of my current screenshots and pulled a small sample of what light mech play end score really is.

What really is op is when you ****** up and the light out played you.