Jump to content

No Hate No War?


33 replies to this topic

#21 Nightbird

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 7,518 posts

Posted 14 October 2022 - 08:14 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 14 October 2022 - 08:04 AM, said:

world powers are not the same as individuals. when getting nuked is a serious threat to your wealth and power you tend to be more restrained. these are not people who have nothing to lose.


World powers do not control the launch button, individuals do. Also, the less wealthy a country is, the less resources they can devote to preventing theft.

If Russia ever collapses, preventing generals from selling off nukes will be a huge nightmare.

#22 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 17,321 posts

Posted 14 October 2022 - 08:21 AM

View PostNightbird, on 14 October 2022 - 08:14 AM, said:

World powers do not control the launch button, individuals do. Also, the less wealthy a country is, the less resources they can devote to preventing theft.

If Russia ever collapses, preventing generals from selling off nukes will be a huge nightmare.


you steal a nuke what do you do with it? i mean you can enact a personal vendetta against your favorite whipping boy state, ramp up the violence against you and yours a thousand fold, or you can use that weapon as a deterrent to protect your own country from being exploited. the former has never happened, while the latter is why there are so many nuclear powers now.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 October 2022 - 08:22 AM.


#23 Nightbird

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 7,518 posts

Posted 14 October 2022 - 08:32 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 14 October 2022 - 08:21 AM, said:

you steal a nuke what do you do with it? i mean you can enact a personal vendetta against your favorite whipping boy state, or you can use that weapon as a deterrent to protect your own country from being exploited. the former has never happened, while the latter is why there are so many nuclear powers now.


Once it's available for a price, most entities can afford one. Excluding some belligerent state actors, this would also include private, religious, political, and special interests.

Avoiding most serious examples, what if Greenpeace got 2 nukes, detonated one in the middle of nowhere, and threatened to nuke the next whale ship in order to save the whales? Silly and serious cases like that will pop up all over.

#24 Duke Falcon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Trinary Nova Captain
  • Trinary Nova Captain
  • 962 posts
  • LocationHungary

Posted 14 October 2022 - 08:34 AM

View PostNightbird, on 14 October 2022 - 07:47 AM, said:

Given how much hate the OP has, peace is just a dream.


I have hate. You do. Everyone do. A human without hate never existed and would never exist.
But learn to controll and keep our hatred IS the key mankind yet need to learn. Trouble is that the time for that is short and get shorter every day.
Extinction of **** sapiens became a viable reality within a considerable timeframe. What we do and how however still a question up to debate spiced by smaller-or-larger conflicts only good to derail main attention from the main problems lurk beneath.

...

As for the need of more nuclear powers? Limited resources, limited budget overcared by delirious governments all around the world...

#25 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 17,321 posts

Posted 14 October 2022 - 08:46 AM

View PostNightbird, on 14 October 2022 - 08:32 AM, said:

Once it's available for a price, most entities can afford one. Excluding some belligerent state actors, this would also include private, religious, political, and special interests.

Avoiding most serious examples, what if Greenpeace got 2 nukes, detonated one in the middle of nowhere, and threatened to nuke the next whale ship in order to save the whales? Silly and serious cases like that will pop up all over.


im not really advocating the buying and selling of nukes. only plans for things like gas centrifuges and warhead designs being made available. uranium processing is still very expensive and not something the likes of greenpeace could afford (that would also be seriously ironic having an environmentalist organization deploy nuclear weapons on earth).

interestingly you would also have the spinoff of being able to deploy more nuclear energy globally. certainly a lot better for the environment than nuking the whales.

#26 Nightbird

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 7,518 posts

Posted 14 October 2022 - 09:57 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 14 October 2022 - 08:46 AM, said:


im not really advocating the buying and selling of nukes. only plans for things like gas centrifuges and warhead designs being made available.


The plans are available if you know where to look.

#27 Ekson Valdez

    Volunteer Moderator

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 729 posts

Posted 01 November 2022 - 10:46 PM



This thread has been moved to Off Topic Discussions



#28 simon1812

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 783 posts

Posted 24 November 2022 - 01:21 PM

We are humans...stop overthinking it. It isn't like people are bad or good, people are just people, they can be bad but they can also be good. Sadly, a myriad of factors (like a lot of factors internal and external) will conspire for folks to make a choice one way or the other.

I think this is one of the reason I kinda like the clan's culture (though not a fan of the eugenic aspect), thier ritualized form of wagging war prevented the worst excesses brought for by military conflicts. the same didn't hold true with the succession wars in the innersphere, where casualties and destruction escalated to such levels that have to be toned down because it started to sound like a plot line right out of WH40K.

#29 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,530 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 24 November 2022 - 10:28 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 14 October 2022 - 08:46 AM, said:

im not really advocating the buying and selling of nukes. only plans for things like gas centrifuges and warhead designs being made available.


I don't see how there's much of a need for that. Nuclear weapons technology is over 75 years old, and ICBMs over 60. These technologies are closer in time to the Wright Flyer than they are to modern technology (nuclear weapons were first employed 42 years after the first powered flight of a heavier-than-air vehicle, and the ICBM 54 years after said flight).

If a nation as starved of material resources and technical expertise as North Korea can produce nukes and ICBMs, I have no doubt that other political or economic entities could. North Korea has a GDP of approximately $40 billion, Apple Inc.'s yearly profit is more than double that. So, yeah, it is entirely plausible that Apple could develop nuclear weapons if they wanted to. (A quick search finds there are at least 7 companies that turn yearly profits equal to or exceeding North Korea's GDP. Two of which are Chinese banks, four are US tech companies, and the biggest is Saudi Aramco.)

Most countries have little interest in developing nuclear weapons. They're money sinks, and don't provide much in the way of diplomatic, economic, or military benefit. India and Pakistan have had nukes for 30 to 40 years, yet it has done nothing to remedy their claims to Kashmir, nor have their nuclear arsenals done anything to elevate them in international influence. India's modern prominence is due largely to their investment in information technology and their poorly regulated, cheaply operated industrial sector. Meanwhile, Pakistan's lack of significant international standing can be laid squarely at the feet of their internal instability, something that possessing nukes has not helped them with. (In fact, it could be argued that the resources wasted on programs to produce weapons that even they aren't crazy or desperate enough to use would have been better used to bolster the nation's infrastructure and cultivate internal stability.)

The idea that nuclear proliferation could be a good thing because then nations could all threaten one another with them is farcical. It's primitive, SDE thinking that equates destruction with power.

#30 simon1812

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 783 posts

Posted 26 January 2023 - 08:46 AM

View PostDuke Falcon, on 14 October 2022 - 08:34 AM, said:


I have hate. You do. Everyone do. A human without hate never existed and would never exist.
But learn to controll and keep our hatred IS the key mankind yet need to learn. Trouble is that the time for that is short and get shorter every day.
Extinction of **** sapiens became a viable reality within a considerable timeframe. What we do and how however still a question up to debate spiced by smaller-or-larger conflicts only good to derail main attention from the main problems lurk beneath.

...

As for the need of more nuclear powers? Limited resources, limited budget overcared by delirious governments all around the world...


-No, that's a terrible way to look at it, the way of those uncultured, immature, the emotional, with poorly disciplined minds. If you felt compelled to start this thread you must be better than that.

Btw, the universe is not static, emotions are fleeting, no hater hates for ever, no lover loves for ever. I don't think we are simply defined by our emotions, but rather by what we do when those emotions surface.




#31 Thorqemada

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,390 posts

Posted 26 January 2023 - 02:23 PM

Gaddafi and Assad and Sadam would have wished for they were as safe as Kim Jon Un.

What is the difference between them?

2 are dead, 1 is at the mercy of russia/turkey and 1 has allegedly an atomic bomb.

Pakistan and India, China and India would have already fought fully fledged war if there was not the atomic treat...

#32 Duke Falcon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Trinary Nova Captain
  • Trinary Nova Captain
  • 962 posts
  • LocationHungary

Posted 28 January 2023 - 09:52 AM

View Postsimon1812, on 26 January 2023 - 08:46 AM, said:

-No, that's a terrible way to look at it, the way of those uncultured, immature, the emotional, with poorly disciplined minds. If you felt compelled to start this thread you must be better than that.

Btw, the universe is not static, emotions are fleeting, no hater hates for ever, no lover loves for ever. I don't think we are simply defined by our emotions, but rather by what we do when those emotions surface.


I understand why do you wish to feel and think that way. I learned much from many fields during my life on different universities. Knowledge bring fear, that is true! With knowledge one may notice how uncivilised remained our race and still how eager and ready to kill each others directly or indirectly. We are sentient, like many other animals on Earth, yet despite all those centuries our civilisation "developed" we could not make that single step to became intelligent. Only a few of us - and I deny being one such persone by default - made that step but they are to few.
Huge bulk of mankind still cling upon dark emotions and try to fullfill those. War is a natural thing? We near to that, sadly.
But if we were intelligent as a race not just sentient we drop away our feelings and emotion when make decisions affect things globally. Like forfeit wars, petty economical games and such. Not necessary we need an 'equally good for everyone' stuff but make some f**king steps toward that would not hurt! Realise that we have only ONE Earth is among those steps.
I read the studies that we could have a population of 12billions approximately. Sure. But on a world looks like Giedi Prime (a vastly polluted planet, literally no natural habitats on it's surface). Earth, with a healthy ecosystem (hahaha, that IS ALREADY A PAST!!!) could upkeep a population of ~3-4billions. A more habitable and healthy world what we already denied from our children and from their children. If they would brand as lunatic, psichos or criminal they would right. We did this! And we still doing this! War is but a tool to hasten things.

Ah yes. Universe is not static but constantly heading toward the entropy. Could be kept statically in a homeostatic state but the sheer amount of work and energy to do so... Possibilities are exists. Even for us, even hope...
The reality is that we know it but not do anything for real to achieve it! Hope remains but hope if noone try to make it come true. Watching idle and hope would not help.
I accept your positive ways of thinking. It is your right even. I just have knowledge and experience what made me more realistic. And when you start to examine reality closely things become real f**ked up.
Went through cancer and corresponding stuffs (hope not need to do it again any soon) also not helped. It taught me that life is meaningless if we stick to those rules we learned to follow. It made me ran blind and ran far. It made me pass a certain border what darkened my hopes whenever I look upon our world. I had my revelations and I dreaded by the things it revealed me. It made me sour for sure, even more chaotic and careless than ever. But it taught me ah-so-much better not learned by anyone ever...

Not wanted to offend anyone. Not always wants so despite my agressive and jerk nature. I try at least being more polite and acceptable time after time. Not always success but try.
When you said I could be better than that... I try. I at least do try. But I fear and see more and more often it just not helps at all, sorry!

#33 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,530 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 04 February 2023 - 10:32 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 26 January 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

Gaddafi and Assad and Sadam would have wished for they were as safe as Kim Jon Un.

What is the difference between them?

2 are dead, 1 is at the mercy of russia/turkey and 1 has allegedly an atomic bomb.

Pakistan and India, China and India would have already fought fully fledged war if there was not the atomic treat...


Ghaddafi was brought down from within by a revolution/civil war, Assad has been dealing with an insurrection/civil war for 10+ years now, caused years of instability that came to head after a massive climate change triggered crop failure. Saddam was taken down by the US military, which no conventional force on Earth has ever been able to stand up against.

Do you think nuclear weapons keep Kim Jon Un safe from a coup? Because they most certainly do not. Do you think Russia's nukes have helped them in the war in Ukraine? Because if so, I haven't seen any evidence of it (so far that war has only been a money sink for everyone involved and a damned meat grinder for Russian soldiers).

Would you want Mexico to have nukes? Do you think nukes would improve their economy? Their standard of living? Because the only things that have done that are trade and industrialization (both of which heavily reliant upon education), not nukes.

So far, the only country on Earth that has been dumb enough to use nukes is the US, and that was before we fully understood what the long term effects were. Nukes are a useless money sink.

#34 simon1812

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 783 posts

Posted 05 February 2023 - 10:21 AM

Ha! You are much too kind Duke Falcon, may I suggest? If you are bothered by an issue out there, trade to become part of the solution, even if it is in a small measure, work you way up in the late run. If you can't do that do reflect on why that is.

"But if we were intelligent as a race not just sentient we drop away our feelings and emotion when make decisions affect things globally. Like forfeit wars, petty economical games and such. Not necessary we need an 'equally good for everyone' stuff but make some f**king steps toward that would not hurt! Realise that we have only ONE Earth is among those steps."

- it's a double edge sword? Feelings is what make us care about others, work in favor of other's well being, lack of feeling makes us cold and uncaring, which is dangerous. Josep Stalin got some tenths of millions killed, starved to death, you think he hated any of them? Evidence suggests he just didn't give two f#$&s about them, it was just numbers in a report, not human lives he would bother to relate in anyway. I think some people call it indifference:

"Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.” -John Stuart Mill

Obscure quotes from old intellectuals is the only thing that stuck with me after college sorry.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users