52 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

While I generally like the light mech changes the Cauldron initiative has produced especially for the locust and flea line I think they kinda passed the fle-20 by during the last pass. Near all of the fleas got a nice armor and weapon system boost or some other quirk to better fit their role like mg ammo boosts etc. However the fle-20 only got a few paltry structure boosts and barely anything useful other than the slight +5% boost to range.

This is the current fle-20 quirk list.

QUIRKS

OVERHEAT DAMAGE-20%
RANGE+5%
TARGET INFO GATHERING+25%
BASE ARMOR (RL)+6
BASE ARMOR (LL)+6
BASE STRUCTURE (CT)+6
BASE STRUCTURE (RT)+6
BASE STRUCTURE (LT)+6
BASE STRUCTURE (RA)+4
BASE STRUCTURE (LA)+4

Compare this to the pirates bane which is near identical in speed, loadout and size.


QUIRKS

HEAT DISSIPATION+10%
OVERHEAT DAMAGE-50%
MACHINE GUN ROF+50%
ENERGY COOLDOWN-10%
BASE ARMOR (CT)+8
BASE ARMOR (RT)+8
BASE ARMOR (LT)+8
BASE ARMOR (RA)+8
BASE ARMOR (LA)+8
BASE ARMOR (RL)+9
BASE ARMOR (LL)+9

AMMO QUIRKS

HMG AMMO+1800
LMG AMMO+3600
MACHINE GUN AMMO+2300

Yeah someone got the short end of the stick.

So I propose something like this to equal it out a bit since the goal of Cauldron is to make every mech viable.


QUIRKS

HEAT DISSIPATION+10%
IS ER/STD MEDIUM LASER RANGE+10%
ENERGY COOLDOWN-5%
CAPTURE ACCELERATOR+30%
BASE ARMOR (CT)+6
BASE ARMOR (RT)+4
BASE ARMOR (LT)+4
BASE ARMOR (RA)+6
BASE ARMOR (LA)+6
BASE ARMOR (RL)+8
BASE ARMOR (LL)+8
BASE STRUCTURE (CT)+4
BASE STRUCTURE (RT)+4
BASE STRUCTURE (LT)+4

Thoughts?

Edited by Meep Meep, 17 October 2022 - 03:52 PM.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Neither require any further work until the full range of quirk passes and balancing has been done across all the other mechs. All this does is accelerate the imbalance between these notoriously OP (in the right hands) chassis that have already been reworked and those still needing some love.

[Meep Meep]

Well good thing I'm not asking for a general quirk refresh of the flea and locust line. As to being op in the right players hands part thats always been a false argument on balance. Good players can perform well in nearly any mech and I've seen them stream in poopy mechs the general playerbase dies in a fire in and at least contribute if not get near the top score. Skill has and never will be op or else what is the point of a competitive pvp game?

As to the changes themselves I'm quite familiar with the entire flea and locust line and am generally satisfied with near all of them. But the fle-20 is still not on par with the rest(however op it might seem in a good players hands) and my proposal is based off thousands of games in it. Its basically a fast tin foil laser turret on legs skirmisher/harasser and its quirks should reflect that.

The paltry overheat damage bonus is useless as even boosted it has a tiny amount of structure to waste on burning it up just to get in that extra alpha and you need every point to survive laser wash as you evade. Paperdoll display time is somewhat useful but you should have cased your target earlier from the safety of ecm to get its weak spots. So that leaves the meager structure and range quirks as useful to a skirmishing laser turret. Not too impressive eh?

They have added single mechs to a quirk pass before so considering this one wouldn't cut out any other needed mechs chances I don't see the issue.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

isn't the fle-20 the one with ecm?
the one with stealth-armor?

..
and you ask why this wasn't buffed as much as the rest..?

[Knownswift]

Both of those mechs are savage noob defilers and they're fine.

[RickySpanish]

Ah I think I know why you are having trouble in the Flea 20, OP. You've not been equipping the ECM and MASC that it is capable of mounting. Bit of a silly mistake, but not as silly as knowing that the '20 can carry both of those and making this thread anyway

[LordNothing]

i feel like the flea has rendered the locust obsolete for me.

[JediPanther]

LordNothing, on 17 October 2022 - 11:43 AM, said:

i feel like the flea has rendered the locust obsolete for me.

I feel the same about the flea. It just does every thing the lct does but slightly slower if you don't bother with masc for some thing else like extra hs or a tc mk1. I think I have one flea while I have nearly all the lcts. PB is defiantly the lct to get out of all of them and it is dirt cheap when bought during a half off sale.

Fleas are just there to me.

[Meep Meep]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 17 October 2022 - 09:34 AM, said:

isn't the fle-20 the one with ecm?
the one with stealth-armor?

..
and you ask why this wasn't buffed as much as the rest..?

Umm I compared the apples to apples fle-20 and pirates bane. Two effectively identical mechs in usage.

RickySpanish, on 17 October 2022 - 09:59 AM, said:

Ah I think I know why you are having trouble in the Flea 20, OP. You've not been equipping the ECM and MASC that it is capable of mounting. Bit of a silly mistake, but not as silly as knowing that the '20 can carry both of those and making this thread anyway

I understand if you missed this thread. Not many go there.

https://mwomercs.com...eep-meeps-ride/

JediPanther, on 17 October 2022 - 01:03 PM, said:

I feel the same about the flea. It just does every thing the lct does but slightly slower if you don't bother with masc for some thing else like extra hs or a tc mk1. I think I have one flea while I have nearly all the lcts. PB is defiantly the lct to get out of all of them and it is dirt cheap when bought during a half off sale.

Fleas are just there to me.

I find the fleas to be slightly worse than the locust line for what they do and the locust line overall got the better buffs. I prefer the 20 over the pb due to the range and extra laser as I tend to play the outriding flanker and need it. When I want to run with the lights or stick to the murderball I like the locusts higher dps and machine guns.

Knownswift, on 17 October 2022 - 09:51 AM, said:

Both of those mechs are savage noob defilers and they're fine.

ANY mech is a noob defiler if someone rolls an alt and tears through the lower tiers on their way up. Good thing with the psr changes that alt will only have a relative handful of matches in the lower tiers before they jet into tier 3 and beyond. You can typically blast out of tier 5 in like 3~5 games.

[LordNothing]

you dont even need an alt anymore. its not uncommon to have all tiers in the same match. ignore what the mm says on the tin.

[LordNothing]

JediPanther, on 17 October 2022 - 01:03 PM, said:

I feel the same about the flea. It just does every thing the lct does but slightly slower if you don't bother with masc for some thing else like extra hs or a tc mk1. I think I have one flea while I have nearly all the lcts. PB is defiantly the lct to get out of all of them and it is dirt cheap when bought during a half off sale.

Fleas are just there to me.

yea but the superior firepower of fleas more than makes up for it. locusts tend to be hardpoint starved.

[Meep Meep]

By lower tiers I mean 5 and 4. Tier 3 is when the two upper tiers start getting mixed in. The two lower tiers only ever get tier 3 max added to a match which is why the low end and high end of the tiers have longer queue times. If you are good enough to be a threat in the upper tiers in a solo flea or locust then you will be blasting out of the lower tiers probably well under a hundred games probably closer to 70ish.

[feeWAIVER]

The flea has masc, that's why it gets less buffs.
Also target info gathering on is always welcome, especially when you want to quickly know where the weak spot is.

[Meep Meep]

feeWAIVER, on 17 October 2022 - 02:38 PM, said:

The flea has masc, that's why it gets less buffs.
Also target info gathering on is always welcome, especially when you want to quickly know where the weak spot is.

165kph all the time with built in agility vs 148kph all the time with a very short 177kph masc burst isn't exactly a game changer.

At to targeting if you are running an ecm backstabber you should have cased your target long before you actually engaged it.

Again this is an apples to apples comparison between two near identical mechs not an exposition on lights or the flea and locust line in general.

[feeWAIVER]

Meep Meep, on 17 October 2022 - 02:44 PM, said:

165kph all the time with built in agility vs 148kph all the time with a very short 177kph masc burst isn't exactly a game changer.

At to targeting if you are running an ecm backstabber you should have cased your target long before you actually engaged it.

Again this is an apples to apples comparison between two near identical mechs not an exposition on lights or the flea and locust line in general.

These aren't apples to apples tho.
One has masc, and +1 laser
The other has +2 machine guns.

If anything, the flea could be helped with more heat dissipation, I don't think it needs more range or.cooldown.
Most of the PB quirks are just to support it's 2 machine guns.

[Meep Meep]

feeWAIVER, on 17 October 2022 - 02:58 PM, said:

These aren't apples to apples tho.
One has masc, and +1 laser
The other has +2 machine guns.

If anything, the flea could be helped with more heat dissipation, I don't think it needs more range or.cooldown.
Most of the PB quirks are just to support it's 2 machine guns.

The lmg buffs more than compensate for the one less energy hardpoint and the pb has superior but more importantly sustainable dps at effectively the same ranges.

Again the masc only slightly gives the flea a mobility edge and its only in short bursts not an all the time boost like in the pb.

As to my proposed changes its so the fle-20 can more closely fill the role of skirmisher and hardly makes it op.

[feeWAIVER]

Meep Meep, on 17 October 2022 - 03:04 PM, said:

The lmg buffs more than compensate for the one less energy hardpoint and the pb has superior but more importantly sustainable dps at effectively the same ranges.

Again the masc only slightly gives the flea a mobility edge and its only in short bursts not an all the time boost like in the pb.

As to my proposed changes its so the fle-20 can more closely fill the role of skirmisher and hardly makes it op.

I can agree it could use heat disapation, or just a flat heat reduction.
I don't agree it needs more range or cooldown.

Masc is more than a short burst. Masc makes it the fastest mech in the game, for long bursts.
And keep in mind, these are not apples to apples, and we don't want them to be homogeneous.

[Meep Meep]

feeWAIVER, on 17 October 2022 - 03:20 PM, said:

I can agree it could use heat disapation, or just a flat heat reduction.
I don't agree it needs more range or cooldown.

Masc is more than a short burst. Masc makes it the fastest mech in the game, for long bursts.
And keep in mind, these are not apples to apples, and we don't want them to be homogeneous.

But the entire point of Cauldron is to make the mechs as homogenous as possible so that the largest pool is viable to use.

Also try to outrun a 165kph locust in a masc flea. You will lose every time because even though you gain a bit of top end its not enough to lose them before you redline your masc.

Still not understanding opposition to a cooldown quirk. Again it has poor dps unless you stick on red lasers and then its just another xp pinata as close range knife fighting in tinfoil light mechs ain't what it used to be. Also how is another +5% range over what it has now pushing it into op territory? Clan er meds would still outrange it by default and clan pulses can be boosted to near is er med range at this point.

I know that light mechs are unliked now because they can actually do damage and influence a fight but these proposed changes are still going to leave it short of the other flea and locust buffs. I even split the armor and structure boosts to not infringe on the more armored locust line.

Maybe instead of global quirks change them to specific so that the main buffs go to er or standard meds leaving smalls and pulses untouched so you don't get a 5 small pulse stealth flea with too much range. Changed the op to reflect that.

Edited by Meep Meep, 17 October 2022 - 03:49 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Meep Meep, on 17 October 2022 - 03:34 PM, said:

Still not understanding opposition to a cooldown quirk.

Because cooldown quirks are given to other mechs, fleas even, who have less weapons, and therefore need the cooldown quirk to increase their dps. The more you spread cooldown quirks around, generally, the more you make them insignificant for the mechs that actually need them.

The Flea-20 has 5 energy, masc, and the option to go stealth. If it *needs* anything, it's heat management buffs.
All cooldown buffs will do is make you get too hot faster.

[Meep Meep]

Have you perused the revamped quirks I edited in response to your concerns? I'm certainly open to criticism as long as it make sense.