265 replies to this topic

[Blood Rose]

VeeOt Dragon, on 12 March 2023 - 05:44 AM, said:

yeah i consider anything outside of direct game mechanics cheating. a high end mouse is one thing but using macros is cheating in my personal opinion. (then again due to my low income and other factors i just use a cheap Logitech keyboard and mouse)

as for the gimbals in Lore yeah i know they exist (though often the mechs are so old or in ill repair that these systems don't always function properly). main reason i just said to straight up eliminate torso convergence is that i figure it would be easier on the programing side to implement.

Thing is, they did actually have convergence back in beta. Only it was removed because a certain type of very vocal player did not like the idea of being unable to peep-bang with pinpoint precision. And ever since we have had the PP damage meta and the devs frantically implementing one "fix" after another, none of which have ever actually solved the issue

[MrTBSC]

Blood Rose, on 11 March 2023 - 04:33 PM, said:

Lorewise, the torso weapons are not hardlocked but instead have gimbals and servos that allow them to adjust convergence.
What we need, and what I have been asking for for years, is to bring back timed convergence from closed beta. The heavier the weapon the longer it takes to adjust. You want your ERLL/Gauss/PPC sniper boat? Well sure, but you have to stand there and wait for those weapons to converge at the point you are aiming at or risk them not hitting where you want, and the further they have to adjust the longer it takes. EG, adjusting from 270 to 300 metres is fast. From 270 to 800 takes longer, and vice versa.
Targetting computers reduce this time, at the cost of the extra tonnage - they now follow TT rules and weigh more/take up more space the more weapons you have running through them.
Suddenly pinpoint sniping is a lot harder, you have to take time to aim instead of point and clicking. Brawling now has its own advantages as at short range the time matters less. Mechs last a lot longer too.
One change, and it fixes everything from the sniper dominance to the low mech survival time. All that needs to happen then is an LRM buff, and your good.

heavily disagree with this .. you wouldn´t make just sniping with this harder but also fire suppresion on AC2 and RAC builds that already are inacurate AND requiere facetime to beginn with ... we should not include mechanics that make general builds for casual or beginners even harder to use .. we should include/change content to make CQC builds viable or encourage their use ..

[AriCri]

Nerf LRM!!!

[sycocys]

MrTBSC, on 12 March 2023 - 10:35 AM, said:

heavily disagree with this .. you wouldn´t make just sniping with this harder but also fire suppresion on AC2 and RAC builds that already are inacurate AND requiere facetime to beginn with ... we should not include mechanics that make general builds for casual or beginners even harder to use .. we should include/change content to make CQC builds viable or encourage their use ..

To be fair what it would do is eliminate a large bunch of high alpha builds where the weapons are located in the generally much higher armored torsos. Shift the meta to arm mechs which could be further mitigated (from hyper effective use) by reducing most of the armor and structure bonuses that have piled up across the board.

Wouldn't stop people from shifting to double ac2/rac on one side and something larger on the other to shift between.

Not something that will/would happen again, but it would do a good deal for extending the ttk and limiting the alpha drills.

[Curccu]

Clint Taurus, on 11 March 2023 - 08:50 PM, said:

DATA says so in his videoes that he uses a high end mouse (which has on the fly adjustable dpi and macro programming). The kind of mouse a small fraction of the player base uses, and even fewer of whom use it to the extent that players like DATA do. I have the same mouse, but I don't use any of the extra features, which I consider exploitative. Put that thing on the lowest DPI and you pick components with ease. It's an unfair advantage over those who don't have it, so I don't use it. Just like how I never run LRMs in a coordinated group trolling the pug queue, because that's a **** move.

Nobody forces certain players to use every trick, exploit, min/max advantage they can find, and then go drop with casual pugs who are nowhere near the same skill level, seal club them and then post a video declaring that whatever mech or weapon that was used for the clubbing is a "cancer" on the game.

You don't need any "high end" gaming mouse to have adjustable DPI, it has been normal thing on every mouse that dares to be called gaming mouse for Years.

Here are few examples from amazon. I personally got the logitech G502 which is very good mouse and have had it for Years and it is not really expensive.

~50$ https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/B07GBZ4Q68
~30$ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P1HZHVM
~17$ https://www.amazon.c...r/dp/B0BK861338

And even this less than 11$ basic mouse (it says basic in the name) has adjustable DPI https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/B0787D6SGQ
so no you are not required to have expensive "high end" gaming mouse to have that feature and I would assume that MOST of the players can afford some of these examples.

Clint Taurus, on 11 March 2023 - 08:50 PM, said:

The only cancer I see in this game are the comp/streamer types seal clubbing pugs and then complaining that the pugs don't like it. I guess the disrespect for the rest of the player base will continue by the game's seal clubbers until morale improves.

You do realize that "comps" are comps because they want to challenge themselves playing comp against other good skilled players instead of seal club, sure there might be some who also like to seal club.

Blood Rose, on 12 March 2023 - 09:29 AM, said:

Thing is, they did actually have convergence back in beta. Only it was removed because a certain type of very vocal player did not like the idea of being unable to peep-bang with pinpoint precision.

It was removed because it didn't work well (from technical point of view) aka PGI couldn't code it properly.

[Novakaine]

JediPanther, on 11 March 2023 - 09:24 AM, said:

All of you who think IS lrms are SO OP and MUST NERF are idiots. Before I began this long *** post that took an hour to pull the data from the game's mouse-over tool tips lets use three universal numbers before I get to the hard specific numbers. Tell me later how clans don't have a serious advantage over is lrms...Fat Chance.


Universal number 1: Range tree skill adds 15% range.

Universal number 2: Most mechs have a most common quirk of range +10 range hence I specifically used my mechs that have it. Most us us can add 15 % range skill and 10% range quirk to get 25% range total.
Universal number 3: Velocity Skill tree +15% speed.

UAVS: You get one slot for it FREE and it's dirt cheap with auto-fill USE IT!


Mechs used for data:

Jenner IIc-3 max range/velocity skills

Jenner IIc-Fury max range /velocity tree skills

Griffin GRF-1N(P) max range/velocity skills


Many posts about lrms balance are along the lines of "omg so fast too much damage so much range I can't get to cover waah waah must nerf" from people who mostly play the slowest mech class in the game going roughly 40-50kph. So lets compare all that range (lack of) velocity (lol what velocity) and tonnage (oooh **** i should go meta clanker ez win) required to use them against the dreaded IS lrms. Guess what is lrms velocity are on the griffin?

IS lrm indirect: 210 (+52 quirk/skills)
IS lrm DIRECT: 294 (+73 quirk/skills)


Artemis has NO EFFECT on velocity. It does add one ton to the weight of the missile launcher. Tag for both clan and IS is 750m range. IS bap is one and a half tons. Clan bap is one ton. Clan light bap is a puny half ton. IS tag is one ton. Assuming you're using IS and smart enough to use and stack it with bap that is 2.5 tons just to aim your is lrms directly and get a lock. All for that just to fire a weapon with under 300m/s speed unless your mech has quirks which grf does.


You lose 3 tons (tag+bap) for IS just to get your own locks if and only if you take and use the equipment. Yes I rounded up since it makes the math ez for me with my match disability but it is 2.5 tons for the nerds. You could just be a lazy a-hole and try going sensor skills only for locks. Good luck with all the ecm out there. I hate you if this is how you lrm.
Since the meta is er ll,gauss and er ppc lets see how clans works. Including all those fancy numbers above for our 25% range and 15% velocity.

Clan ER PPC
minimal range 0
max 1620m + (405m quirk)= 2,025m
optimal 810m+ (202m quirk)=1,012m
velocity 1650m/s (+247m/s quirk)= 1897 m/s
6 tons no ammo

Clan GAUSS
minimal range 0
max 2050m (+717m quirk)= 2,757m
optimal 810m (+ 283m quirk)=1,093m
velocity 2200m/s (+330 m/s quirk)= 2,530 m/s
12 tons plus ammo

Clan ER lls have no speed so nothing there to compare it to IS lrms.

Hey look. All that velocity is ultra mega super sonic fast compared to IS lrms velocity of only 294 m/s. So clans velocity is 2,236 m/s and 1,603 m/s FASTER. So now we know IS lrms have crap for speed. Whic one is easier to doge I wonder? Range next since they are "long" and all these post always try can claim they can't get to cover.

All IS lrm are limited to a range meager 900m regardless of size. Add on the range number and you get only 1,035m. Some mechs with missile range quirks can get a small number farther but none hit 1,175m.
Well now minus that 1035m we can add that clanker laser in after we find its stats:
Clan ER LL
minimal range 0
max 1620m + 405m=2,025m
optimal 810m+ 202m=1,012m
velocity none
4 tons no ammo

Clans out range IS lrms period. Clan ER PPC has 990m over. Clan er ll has 990m over. Clan Gauss has 1,722m over. So Clans have VELOCITY and RANGE over IS lrm. Maybe IS lrm have some thing over clans to make them such OP must Nerf weapons of fear. Weight! That's it! IS LRMS surely have that over clans!? Well...NO and NO and F. U. N O! But here's the numbers in case you know how to math that out.

is lrm 5 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
minimal range 180m
max 900m/1035 skill tree+225m=
optimal 900m/+225m=
velocity indirect 210+52=
velocity direct 294+73=
2 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap
3 tons artemis plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap

is lrm 10 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
minimal range 180m
max 900m(1035m skill tree)+225m
optimal 900+225m
velocity indirect 210+52
velocity direct 294+73
5 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap
6 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap

is lrm 15 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
max 900m+225m
optimal 900+225m
velocity indirect 210+52
velocity direct 294+73
7 tons plus ammo plus 2.5 tag/bap
8 pluss ammo artemis plus 2.5 tag/bap

is lrm 20 standard
0-179m=NO DAMAGE
max 900m (1035m skill tree)+225m
optimal 900+225m
velocity indirect 210+52
velocity direct 294+73
10 tons plus ammo Plus 2.5 tons tag/bap
11 tons plus ammo artemis Plus 2.5 tag/bap

This Period.

[Vellron2005]

D A T A, on 03 March 2023 - 10:28 AM, said:

I'd like to hear what people think about the topic.


1) LRMs have very low skill requirements, they are very close to an aimbot, which is the negation itself of the concept of PvP: they just should not be nearly as good as the other weapons, because they require no aim to be used.

2) Due to their easy nature, tier 3-4-5 are INFESTED by LRM rains, and at times these filthy aimbots bring cancer even in comp, which is laughable per se.

3) The overabundance of LRMs causes the ECM spam as a reaction, because all the other countermeasures got nerfed directly or indirectly into the dust.

4) LRM rains invalidate many slow mechs without ecm, reducing game diversity, because they are just too big to use many objects as covers and LRMs now travel too fast to even let them go to cover, due to the stupidity of the LRM velocity buffs delivered by Chris, pre cauldron.

5) AMS/LAMS are useless, you get rained regardless

6) LRMs can not be balanced on AMS solely, because many clan omnis can not effectively mount it.

7) LRMS got buffed repeatedly in a direct or indirect way in the last 4 years (velocity buff, velocity tree, velocity quirks, missile HP boost, ECM nerf, Radar Deprivation nerf)


PROBLEM

I am sick of a situation where you get hit by missiles so quick that Betty can't even finish saying "warning incoming missile" anymore.
I am sick of seeing most 70-100 tonners without ecm behave just like LRM landing platforms.

PROPOSAL

Nerf LRM velocity so that slower mechs have more time to travel to their cover, and so that AMS has more time to shoot down incoming missiles.

Again with this crap?! REALLY?!

OMG LRMs have been down in the dumps and nerfed to oblivion. Any further nerfs will make them non-viable. Here are my answers to each point:

1) Definitely NOT no-skill weapons.Yes, using them is easy in theory. But being effective with them and doing well with them is bloody hard. An excessive ammount of counters, hard to earn/easy to lose locks, spread damage.. You need skillz boy, trust me.

2) This whole thing is just bloody offensive to every lurmer, everywhere. Not deserving of a comment.

3) ECM spam is a constant for as long as there has been ECM. Especially since power creep gave every mech and their mom an ECM slot.. All other counters did not get nerfed into dust. THEY nerfed LRMs into dust, and then those nerfes were only slightly softened, and the LRM haters got their panties in a bunch.

4) If anything, they bring MORE diversity to the table, because you have to account for them. You have to counter them, or suffer their damage. That's more diversity, not less. The velocity buffs only gave LRMs a fighting chance.

5) So you, what, want to equip a piece of equipment weight 3-5 tons with ammo/heat sinks that completely neuters full assault-class mechs? Have you taken your meds today guys? That would be game-breakingly OP. And just so you know, yes, even if, and especially if, you bring a dedicated AMS mech, you WILL get not only rained on, but called out as a primary target, and every LRM tube we got will be heading your way simultaneously, because that's the only way to take you down and enjoy the rest of the game. AMS is not, and should never be a "no more LRMs ever" solution.

6) LRMs are "balanced" on over 10+ hard counters in this game. AMS is just one of them. How many things are ballisctics balanced on? Or Lasers? How is that fair?

7) LRMs got nerfed repeatedly since day one of Closed Beta. If you remember, or were there, they used to be way, waaaaay more fun. I remember bending LRMs around hard cover, giving you zero chance to shoot me at all, and hitting you with impunity. Trust me, LRMs are nerfed sooo much it's not even funny.

Your problem's solution: Get into cover. Account for LRMs when setting up your mech. Know that your betty isn't warning you of just LRMs but also ATMs, which travel even faster and get shot at you from way closer. Ofterntimes, it's ATMs hitting you, not LRMs. Also, you guys nerfed LRMs so that they're mostly only effective in medium to short range anyway, now when I'm shooting them at you from 300m away so they actually have a chance to hit you, it's still not good for you. When have you ever dodged SRMs? Why are they not too fast for you?
Also, 70-100 tonners without ECM should get with the program, find an ECM buddy, and get into cover, move with their team. Not get left behind or rush over open ground expecting to not get pummled. That's like rushing over open ground and expecting to not get sniped. Not gonna happen. Learn to play an assault.

As for your proposal: Hell no. Velocity is fine, it gives LRMs a fighting chance. If you nerf velocity, then make loosing locks very very hard, and bring back the noble art of LRM-bending. Otherwise, it's a dead weapon system.

[LordNothing]

been advocating for a second "cover my mech only" ecm, and a bigger, heavier, cover the team ecm. this is what mwll does with gecm and aecm respectively. the current ecm gets nerfs and becomes the gecm module. no protection bubble (counter bubble only), covers your mech but not others. can be directly and completely countered by bap reguardless of number in range. then you get a new module, aecm, which gives you the full bubble (buffed back to 180m), full team protection and can fully counter any ecm in its bubble, and can only be soft countered by bap, only difference is its maybe 3 tons and 3 slots. stealth works with either though you dont get the full protection bubble with the aecm.

most players i think will take the gecm, and this will not block lerm boats from engaging nearby non-ecmed mechs. some teamwork oriented players may take the aecm, but i suspect they will be rare.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 March 2023 - 02:09 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 14 March 2023 - 06:50 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Fun fact, lurmers make up only 13% of the population, but are responsible for 52% of team damage.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

feeWAIVER, on 14 March 2023 - 06:46 AM, said:

Fun fact, lurmers make up only 13% of the population, but are responsible for 52% of team damage.

fun fact: when you're teamed up either with Lurmers or your favourite mapedge-sniper, that AC20-triggerfinger of yours starts to itch in both cases

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 14 March 2023 - 07:10 AM.

[Blood Rose]

MrTBSC, on 12 March 2023 - 10:35 AM, said:

heavily disagree with this .. you wouldn´t make just sniping with this harder but also fire suppresion on AC2 and RAC builds that already are inacurate AND requiere facetime to beginn with ... we should not include mechanics that make general builds for casual or beginners even harder to use .. we should include/change content to make CQC builds viable or encourage their use ..

Not really, the weapons would still hit, and arguably these would be better for it as the higher rate of fire would let them fire as they converge without the downside of firing your load too early and having to wait for the weapons to cycle before you could fire again.
The builds that would be hurt most would be the long range pinpoint massive alpha sniper builds - aka the current dominant meta - as they would have to stand and wait for their weapons convergence to adjust from 20 metres, or whatever they were looking at before poking, to the usual 800+ metres they engage at.
As a caveat, you could have it that the mechs weapons will converge to the range of a target that you have locked on to, and do their best to maintain that convergence until the lock is dropped or lost.

[sycocys]

Blood Rose, on 14 March 2023 - 11:01 AM, said:

Not really, the weapons would still hit, and arguably these would be better for it as the higher rate of fire would let them fire as they converge without the downside of firing your load too early and having to wait for the weapons to cycle before you could fire again.
The builds that would be hurt most would be the long range pinpoint massive alpha sniper builds - aka the current dominant meta - as they would have to stand and wait for their weapons convergence to adjust from 20 metres, or whatever they were looking at before poking, to the usual 800+ metres they engage at.
As a caveat, you could have it that the mechs weapons will converge to the range of a target that you have locked on to, and do their best to maintain that convergence until the lock is dropped or lost.

Most of them will just stand there aiming at the ground right where they saw a target so changing convergence won't help there, and at close range it won't change anything unless it's very fast to move out of the reticule - just keep your aim deep and it will still be mostly pinpoint.
Zero or reduced ability on torsos (arms would work as well) would be more able to break out of most of the alpha meta, at least force to alternating fire combined with accurate small adjusting, and it really just splits out the 4(5 w/head) reticules that are already layered there (if my memory from beta serves me correctly this is probably still the case).

[Vsolid]

LordNothing, on 13 March 2023 - 02:08 PM, said:

been advocating for a second "cover my mech only" ecm, and a bigger, heavier, cover the team ecm. this is what mwll does with gecm and aecm respectively. the current ecm gets nerfs and becomes the gecm module. no protection bubble (counter bubble only), covers your mech but not others. can be directly and completely countered by bap reguardless of number in range. then you get a new module, aecm, which gives you the full bubble (buffed back to 180m), full team protection and can fully counter any ecm in its bubble, and can only be soft countered by bap, only difference is its maybe 3 tons and 3 slots. stealth works with either though you dont get the full protection bubble with the aecm.

most players i think will take the gecm, and this will not block lerm boats from engaging nearby non-ecmed mechs. some teamwork oriented players may take the aecm, but i suspect they will be rare.

Interesting, this would mean quirking mechs like the Urbanmech R80 (which already have ECM area buffs) to be specifically quirked for AECM. That could cause its own problems though, how do you make both of them equally worth taking? One will almost always be better than the other at the highest level of play.

[LordNothing]

Vsolid, on 15 March 2023 - 01:02 AM, said:

Interesting, this would mean quirking mechs like the Urbanmech R80 (which already have ECM area buffs) to be specifically quirked for AECM. That could cause its own problems though, how do you make both of them equally worth taking? One will almost always be better than the other at the highest level of play.

pretty much you have to pay the full tonnage for the better version. on most mechs you mount ecm because its light and doesnt take a lot of space. if it starts eating into your build then the weaker module can be used. look narc for example, its big, heavy, and almost never used because of it. you only use it when you want to help your support assets do their job. its also nice to have tradeoffs.

requirks for ecm may need to be done, perhaps specifying one module or the other.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 March 2023 - 02:22 AM.

[Curccu]

Blood Rose, on 14 March 2023 - 11:01 AM, said:

Not really, the weapons would still hit, and arguably these would be better for it as the higher rate of fire would let them fire as they converge without the downside of firing your load too early and having to wait for the weapons to cycle before you could fire again.
The builds that would be hurt most would be the long range pinpoint massive alpha sniper builds - aka the current dominant meta - as they would have to stand and wait for their weapons convergence to adjust from 20 metres, or whatever they were looking at before poking, to the usual 800+ metres they engage at.
As a caveat, you could have it that the mechs weapons will converge to the range of a target that you have locked on to, and do their best to maintain that convergence until the lock is dropped or lost.

Wouldn't this just benefit long range weapons? I'm assuming non-converge status is straight forward? Longer range you shoot less degrees your weapons have to converge? so brawlers would be in most disadvantage here because short range weapons have most convergence to do from that directly forward + holding target is harder in brawl specially with slow velocity weapons like SRMs.... In fact you cannot keep your reticle on fast'ish sideways moving target instead you have to lead it and that ***** up convergence totally.

[LordNothing]

he has a point, more range less traversal required. also the reason they had to break this feature was to make hsr work. that feature probibly gives mwo the best hit detection of any of the mechwarrior games.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

LordNothing, on 15 March 2023 - 06:18 PM, said:

he has a point, more range less traversal required. also the reason they had to break this feature was to make hsr work. that feature probibly gives mwo the best hit detection of any of the mechwarrior games.

well, you could just reverse that ingame. screw physics, go quality of game.
but srsly, it's a moot point anyway: won't happen in mwo.

[LordNothing]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 16 March 2023 - 06:25 AM, said:

well, you could just reverse that ingame. screw physics, go quality of game.
but srsly, it's a moot point anyway: won't happen in mwo.

i think id rather have ghost duration.

[evil kerensky]

i think its good that lower teirs have a weapon system that gives instant gratification. i remember when i was in teir 5, the first time i saw a lurm spammer (maddog with 6 lrm10s on chain fire, just killing it. so i bought a maddog, and learned lrms as my first weapon system. that was exciting and fun, and pushed me to go on to learn how to play splat, vomit, gauss/ppc, gauss vomit, dakka... etc.

lrms are like a gateway drug to higher teirs of gameplay.