120 replies to this topic

[TG Xarbala]

light487, on 29 July 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Yes ok.. but I hope it doesn't turn the game into Gundam....

Sir, if I may be so blunt:

Gundam ain't half as metal as Battletech.

Also suck it Clanners.

[Syllogy]

Wo0m3rA, on 27 July 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

The tabletop rules/settings from Battletech are the very foundation of anything MechWarrior, and as anyone who knows the miniatures game rules will point out - Melee is covered under advanced rules.

So in other words "yes" melee combat should be implemented into any current PC based incarnation of the BT universe, it's a feature that's been lacking from prior versions of MechWarrior.

Other tabletop game features which require consideration for the PC version are the abilities for 'mechs to kneel or go prone and make full use of terrain for cover - once again covered under Battletechs advanced rules, and like melee, used by players of the TT version for near on 25 years.

What you, and everyone else that wants hardcore TT rules melee in the game is this:

Integrating any satisfactory melee system into MWO would be like trying to blend combat from Assassin's Creed, FPS combat from COD, with the machines from Chrome Hounds.

The absolute best you can hope for is a Skyrim-like First Person Melee Combat System.

Battletech Mechs going Prone, Rolling, or doing Backflips is pretty ridiculous. If you want that junk, you can played Armored Corps.

[Kuro Ryu]

It would be extremely hard to balance melee combat. Now don't get me wrong I think it would be great to see it and yes its a part of BT universe but I don't think it has a place in the game in it's current build.

[Scorpioneldar]

Wo0m3rA, on 27 July 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

The tabletop rules/settings from Battletech are the very foundation of anything MechWarrior, and as anyone who knows the miniatures game rules will point out - Melee is covered under advanced rules.

So in other words "yes" melee combat should be implemented into any current PC based incarnation of the BT universe, it's a feature that's been lacking from prior versions of MechWarrior.

Other tabletop game features which require consideration for the PC version are the abilities for 'mechs to kneel or go prone and make full use of terrain for cover - once again covered under Battletechs advanced rules, and like melee, used by players of the TT version for near on 25 years.

in 4 you had the ability to crouch but only a few mechs could do it and it was pretty bad for you overall

[Scorpioneldar]

TheTrice, on 28 July 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Well in other Mech games and franchises melee is a main part of it , I am talking about armored core , front mission evolved and the infamous Gundam , but sadly from MW1 to 4 the melee wepons are not a prat of the game , and since this game is biased on the franchise I wont think it would be implemented , But i Hope they try to add it as an evolution to the game style , since it makes since

as previously stated this game is based on the battle tech franchise that eventually spawned the mechwarrior games in which(both books and tabletop) melee was a huge part of survival for anyone who ran out of ammo. was the whole point of mechs like the ax-man and allowed the construction and logger and mining mechs to be used to help defend a world in a pinch
heck one book i read recently started off with the main character in a logger logging in a forest when a battle came to him
that chainsaw helped change the course of a battle

[Scorpioneldar]

Syllogy, on 29 July 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

What you, and everyone else that wants hardcore TT rules melee in the game is this:

Integrating any satisfactory melee system into MWO would be like trying to blend combat from Assassin's Creed, FPS combat from COD, with the machines from Chrome Hounds.

The absolute best you can hope for is a Skyrim-like First Person Melee Combat System.

Battletech Mechs going Prone, Rolling, or doing Backflips is pretty ridiculous. If you want that junk, you can played Armored Corps.

yet as far as going prone crouching and ( involuntary) rolling down a hill all exist in the battle tech universe the old rule books have rules for the first 2 and i admit i only found the third in a book and no it is not something the mech can do itself (except for rolling over and getting back up)
yeah one of the reasons the inner-sphere held off the clans and eventually stalled them (untill the traitor gave up the jade falcons home world) was because we did things like ram hit them with broken off arms stab with a logger mech chainsaw build the ax-man fight "dishonorably" as in use melee gang up on targets sneak attacks/ambush and basicaly be willing to throw everything and the kitchen sink so to speak at them till they were hurt then go and hit them some more

[Scorpioneldar]

BDU SKINLESS, on 29 July 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

...or a Lacrosse stick for the Atlas so I can launch Jenners like a Trebuchet into other enemy mechs.

from a varsity Lacrosse defender i have to say this would make me very happy i would lol and then use this so much it would cease to be funny
seriously though i doubt it though.... maybe a buy-able skin for a pole-arm type weapon?

[TG Xarbala]

Scorpioneldar, on 29 July 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

in 4 you had the ability to crouch but only a few mechs could do it and it was pretty bad for you overall

Scorpioneldar, on 29 July 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

as previously stated this game is based on the battle tech franchise that eventually spawned the mechwarrior games in which(both books and tabletop) melee was a huge part of survival for anyone who ran out of ammo. was the whole point of mechs like the ax-man and allowed the construction and logger and mining mechs to be used to help defend a world in a pinch
heck one book i read recently started off with the main character in a logger logging in a forest when a battle came to him
that chainsaw helped change the course of a battle

Scorpioneldar, on 29 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

yet as far as going prone crouching and ( involuntary) rolling down a hill all exist in the battle tech universe the old rule books have rules for the first 2 and i admit i only found the third in a book and no it is not something the mech can do itself (except for rolling over and getting back up)
yeah one of the reasons the inner-sphere held off the clans and eventually stalled them (untill the traitor gave up the jade falcons home world) was because we did things like ram hit them with broken off arms stab with a logger mech chainsaw build the ax-man fight "dishonorably" as in use melee gang up on targets sneak attacks/ambush and basicaly be willing to throw everything and the kitchen sink so to speak at them till they were hurt then go and hit them some more

Scorpioneldar, on 29 July 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

from a varsity Lacrosse defender i have to say this would make me very happy i would lol and then use this so much it would cease to be funny
seriously though i doubt it though.... maybe a buy-able skin for a pole-arm type weapon?

While I agree with you, I felt the need to point out that you can use the MultiQuote button next to the Quote button to quote multiple posts in a single reply.

I still think it'd be really funny if you could pick up a destroyed limb and club someone with it, but alas, this sort of thing isn't modelled.

[Deceptor]

Melee is fine, as a last ditch effort. Ramming and DFA have always had their places. Even some physics that allowed for pushing a mech around or over (or over a cliff) seems within reason. Maybe the little guy can trip a big guy if he rams the legs.

But super importantly, I really think any sort of buyable equippable melee weapons is just ridiculous. And if they can't incorporate this melee system into the way mechs are piloted presently (torso swinging and targeting the arms) it will probably add an unneccesary amount of complication to the already steep learning curve of the controls.

[Tyzh]

Deceptor, on 29 July 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I really think any sort of buyable equippable melee weapons is just ridiculous.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hatchet

Ridiculous.

[Deathz Jester]

I'm pretty much going to assume that anyone opposed to melee has a serious lack of faith in PGI's skills.

Yes its not going to be in the initial release, but they haven't said that it will not be in the game at all. So I'm assuming after the game has a firm standing, they'll start looking at ways to implement it.




and yes I'm aware that it could completely suck, but I also think if PGI happens to think it might suck and there'd be no safe way to do it then they'd probably say so.

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 29 July 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[Deceptor]

Tyzh, on 29 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hatchet

Ridiculous.

You know, I'll assume you're not implying the need to develop and balance an entire new class of weapons, and incorporate it into the hardpoint system, on this premise.

[Insidious Johnson]

I do believe the "Ayes" have it. I'm sure those hating melee will make another poll and expect a different result than the forest of other melee polls(HA!). With it becoming this hot of a topic with every new iteration and combined with the fact it has existed only in TT, we can rest assured that the expansion, in which they announce its release, will likely outsell all others besides the Clan Invasion. Even then, it might just out sell a Clan expansion.

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 29 July 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[SakuranoSenshi]

Well, we'll have to see but so far PGI have done a very good job of getting tabletop ideas into the game (can't discuss details, obviously but suffice to say that I like what I have seen) and I don't think this one is beyond them, necessarily, either. I also think that if they feel they can't do it justice, they won't add a broken version of it to the release build.

[Lege]

It's all about the collision detection.
If they can get their servers/connections in sync, by all means add it in.
Many games have problems with this and makes melee almost impossible for me to play in pvp.
I'll probably never play a melee mech, or at least not regularly.
I want to see them added to the game, they are in the TT rules.
They are impractical and would take some balancing to make useful in MWO.

[OriontheHunter]

Deceptor, on 29 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

You know, I'll assume you're not implying the need to develop and balance an entire new class of weapons, and incorporate it into the hardpoint system, on this premise.

There's nothing new about them, they're actually older than the video games and have been missing from them for too long. The TT is where the entire BT Universe came from including this video game.

[James Searcy]

OriontheHunter, on 29 July 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

It should be just as 'useful' as the TT, by what you've outlined. You could avoid melee range in the TT as well, unless terrain or battle conditions prevented you from doing it, granted you can now avoid melee at far closer ranges, but not as easily as your making it sound, a mech can't back up as fast as it can move forward, so to move as your opponent you have to 'turn your back' to them, which generally means not being able to fire at them. Then you have mechs of different speeds to consider, so it should be able to be used, just not always and not against every opponent on the battle field, unless they're willing to engage in it as well.

On the contrary, you don't have to turn away at all. You just have to parallel or move in any direction you like except at them. 'Mechs can torso-twist, remember? Evasion is not so limited as you make it out to be, and once you force your opponent to turn to continue closing, it's not hard to end up with a turning fight unable to close at about 100 meters or so. I saw it happen a lot in the last two MechWarrior games and if anything the videos we've seen of MWO (the Jenner vid provides some good evidence, watch the other 'Mechs) suggest that 'Mechs have gotten more responsive, not less, making it easier to avoid the sort of ten-meter range at which melee becomes viable.

Also, keep in mind the timeframe and the 'Mechs involved. 4/6 is pretty much normal for anything at 50 tons or more. And everyone out there citing the use of melee for self-defense of their CPLT or AWS is doing so against something at least 6/9 or 7/11. Even by straight backing up, which is the least-likely and least-rational maneuver, it will work to keep them out of melee range.

So while I am in theory in favor of the eventual addition of melee attacks, I think they're really not worth the effort at this point in time. I'd prefer to see the coding and animation guy's time spent getting more 'Mechs into the game.

Edited by James Searcy, 29 July 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Deceptor]

OriontheHunter, on 29 July 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

There's nothing new about them, they're actually older than the video games and have been missing from them for too long. The TT is where the entire BT Universe came from including this video game.

I know that. I admit I don't know the age of the hardpoint system either but it didn't appear in MW until the 2000's. It still boils down to the fact that if you're going to incorporate their hardpoints you'll be forcing them to become a much larger part of the attack strategy than what it sounds like the TT was even aiming to achieve, let alone handing a melee mech to a newbie who just loves anime.

[OriontheHunter]

James Searcy, on 29 July 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

On the contrary, you don't have to turn away at all. You just have to parallel or move in any direction you like except at them. 'Mechs can torso-twist, remember? Evasion is not so limited as you make it out to be, and once you force your opponent to turn to continue closing, it's not hard to end up with a turning fight unable to close at about 100 meters or so. I saw it happen a lot in the last two MechWarrior games and if anything the videos we've seen of MWO (the Jenner vid provides some good evidence, watch the other 'Mechs) suggest that 'Mechs have gotten more responsive, not less, making it easier to avoid the sort of ten-meter range at which melee becomes viable.

Yes I remember Torso twisting the TT limits it to 60 degrees either way but the video games limits it by individual mechs, so some mechs will do it better than others, and you missed the point of my post. You can evade it in the TT as well, unless the terrain forces it, something about the battle makes it more inviting, or the mech is faster than you. So it's worth is going to be similar. It can most times be evaded if your carefull, but there are times it can't. I'm not saying it should be in at launch, but I definately think it should be in.

Deceptor, on 29 July 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I know that. I admit I don't know the age of the hardpoint system either but it didn't appear in MW until the 2000's. It still boils down to the fact that if you're going to incorporate their hardpoints you'll be forcing them to become a much larger part of the attack strategy than what it sounds like the TT was even aiming to achieve, let alone handing a melee mech to a newbie who just loves anime.

Actually the hardpoint system is an invention of the video games, to fix balance problems it made it's appearance in MW4, I believe. Mech construction by the TT is strickly about weight and critical slots, but once constructed it's not easy to make changes, ie you can't do it between successive battles, that's the perview of omni mechs. I believe the hardpoints appearence was most directly related to people over using LRM's, but the reason they over used them was they made them far more effective than they ever were in the TT. LRM's in the TT don't do splash damage. LRM's that actually hit, which is average 60% after a succesful to hit roll, or 12 of an LRM 20 rack, are broken into 5 point clusters, so the 12 would be two 5 point and one 2 point cluster, each with it's own random hit location. Damage is generally lower than the video games and tends to be more spread out across the mech. They are shotguns, and from what I've seen of this game it seems they are trying to return them to that role, but I won't know for sure till I play it.

As for being part of the attack strategy, melee style mechs are not as numerous as other types, so if you take one it's certainly part of your attack strategy, as well if you don't but someone else does, you keep it in mind, it's not like you can miss the big weapon perma-stuck in it's hand, So if you saw one coming, you know to evade if you don't want to get into a melee with it. As for newbs I dont' see what the problem is and what does their love for anime have to do with anything.

Edited by OriontheHunter, 29 July 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Deceptor]

Probably based on your targeting ability. Anyway how do you think they should be implemented as far as hardpoints? I never used a mech for melee (unless you count Kamikaze).