58 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

In BattleTech, MG's were meant for infantry and light armor, aircraft, or softening up tanks.

I absolutely wish people would stop spreading this ill-informed lie.

In Battletech machine guns were supposed to be short range anti-mech weapons from the very beginning when the game didn't even have infantry, battle armor, aircraft or tanks. Even when those units were added (some of which receive additional damage from machine guns) the base damage of machine guns against mechs remained the exact same 2 points of damage per hit which is 100% identical to the damage an AC2 or a singular (S)SRM does to mech armor. Now compare the machine gun damage in MW:O against the damage of AC2s or a (S)SRMs and then just shut the f* up about what Battletech machine guns are "supposed" to do against mechs.

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

MG's were never meant to be a Battlemech's main armament, unless the mech was intended to be anti-infantry/anti-light armor.

Mechs like the Crael, Viper-F, Juggernaut, and Piranha are stupid and convey exactly what is wrong.

News flash "Mr. I know nothing about Battletech despite making claims to the contrary": The PIR-1 and the Viper-F are canon battlemechs from TROs of Battletech and machine guns were definitely meant to be the main armament of those Battlemechs. The Mist Lynx variant G is also a canon Battlemech version that is meant to have machine guns as main armament but normally has machine gun arrays for focussing machine gun damage into one singular mech target zone but isn't necessary in MW:O because the effect of machine gun arrays comes by default.

None of these three mech / omnimechs were intended to be just "anti-infantry" / "anti-light armor" mechs (where "light armor" isn't an actual thing in terms of gameplay stats to begin with because armor on battle armor, vehicles and tanks works exactly like standard mech armor).

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

With minor exception to the Piranha, as it has minimal armor and minimal range, and is actually doing what its supposed to.

Tell me more of you uninformed things so I can laugh even harder at your "expertise".

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 08 April 2023 - 12:59 PM.

[LordNothing]

mwll was subject to this kind of misinformation. many mechs had a couple just for splattering battle armor, they were totally useless against mechs. nothing in a boat config though. machine guns have always been there. and in most mw/battletech games they existed independent of any infantry. its simply bad game design to include useless token items. by that logic mwo has machine guns and not infantry therefore they are intended to be used against mechs.

despite it not being tt-accurate, i think the mwll team did the right thing because their game had a design niche to fill. you had battlearmor, and you needed a cheap counter otherwise they would have been op, and the machine guns were the obvious solution. mwo has no such niche and so use as an anti-mech is the only option. game design is full of these kind of tradeoffs.

and now that this is out of the way we got still got the hardpoint inflation problem. part of their marketing strategy was to periodically inflate the hard points, which was counter to their machine gun implementation. i think rather than inflate the hardpoints id have made mgas available, then use those on the boatier mechs. then the piranha may have only had 4 or so hardpoints full of mgas instead of a lot of single machine guns.

[Akamia Terizen]

Der Geisterbaer, on 08 April 2023 - 12:59 PM, said:

I absolutely wish people would stop spreading this ill-informed lie.

In Battletech machine guns were supposed to be short range anti-mech weapons from the very beginning when the game didn't even have infantry, battle armor, aircraft or tanks. Even when those units were added (some of which receive additional damage from machine guns) the base damage of machine guns against mechs remained the exact same 2 points of damage per hit which is 100% identical to the damage an AC2 or a singular (S)SRM does to mech armor. Now compare the machine gun damage in MW:O against the damage of AC2s or a (S)SRMs and then just shut the f* up about what Battletech machine guns are "supposed" to do against mechs.

Funny thing is, it isn't a lie. At least, not all of it.

MGs have a damage bonus against infantry that few other weapons have. Autocannons don't have it until you put flechette ammo in them, and at that point they stop being anti-BattleMech weapons too, despite doing more than 2 damage to them in most cases. You'd be a fool to bring flechettes to a BattleMech fight, because they do less damage to BattleMechs than standard munitions. A little less on the smaller autocannons, a lot less on the bigger ones.

MGs have some niche utility against BattleMechs, but more often than not, they are a subpar option. Yes, even on the BattleMechs boating them in canon, for reasons that don't apply to MWO. To become more useful in that regard, they need to be attached to an array. (Which MWO does for free, in effect)

They aren't at all a good choice for fighting aircraft, as the person you responded to here claims, but that's when you bring flak ammo and autocannons; you don't want to be shooting that stuff at BattleMechs either, if you can help it, for the exact same reason you want to avoid bringing flechettes to the same situation.

Der Geisterbaer, on 08 April 2023 - 12:59 PM, said:

News flash "Mr. I know nothing about Battletech despite making claims to the contrary": The PIR-1 and the Viper-F are canon battlemechs from TROs of Battletech and machine guns were definitely meant to be the main armament of those Battlemechs. The Mist Lynx variant G is also a canon Battlemech version that is meant to have machine guns as main armament but normally has machine gun arrays for focussing machine gun damage into one singular mech target zone but isn't necessary in MW:O because the effect of machine gun arrays comes by default.

None of these three mech / omnimechs were intended to be just "anti-infantry" / "anti-light armor" mechs (where "light armor" isn't an actual thing in terms of gameplay stats to begin with because armor on battle armor, vehicles and tanks works exactly like standard mech armor).

The Piranha was literally developed by Clan Diamond Shark to combat infantry and light vehicles shortly before the Battle of Tukayyid. The Mist Lynx G was also developed to fight infantry, though unlike the Piranha, the surrounding context for its design is more nebulous.

Are they "just" anti-infantry? I mean, they can't exclusively damage infantry, but that is definitely what they are best at and purpose-built for.

Now, I actually think MGs are doing pretty okay in the current state of the game. Indeed, they should always be at least somewhat useful, or they shouldn't be in the game – and you won't hear me argue the latter is in any way desirable. But you are incorrect about current BattleTech lore. Your understanding is decades out-of-date.

When we've hit a situation where I can pull up Sarna or even a current book that addresses the matter, and it disagrees with you, I think that's the point where you should abandon this argument of yours. It's completely and utterly unconvincing. I agree with your conclusion where MG should be in MWO in principle, but the reasoning you're using to get there does not hold up. Please bury this line and get a better one.

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 08 April 2023 - 08:08 PM.

[Akamia Terizen]

So here's my issue with this...

I disagree with the changes put forward in this post, but where the lore is concerned...

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

In BattleTech, MG's were meant for infantry and light armor, aircraft, or softening up tanks.

Yes and no. Aircraft, definitely not. Bring autocannons with flak rounds for those.

But while they are certainly best at fighting infantry, they are definitely not useless against BattleMechs, especially in large numbers. Sooner or later, quantity has a quality all its own, and all that... But this does not imply that one should never bring machine guns to a BattleMech fight, especially if you're operating the lightest BattleMechs around who have next to no other options available to them.

As others have pointed out, MGs existed in the tabletop game before any non-BattleMech assets did, and they still have a place in that kind of fight, for better or for worse. In effect, this game is a lot like those early years of the tabletop. No non-BattleMech assets to contend with, at least none that can be shot and killed. That's one reason we don't even have those alternative ammo types for ACs that specialize in killing infantry and aircraft. The funny thing about MGs, though, is that they legally don't have alternative ammo available to them. What they've got is what they've got. Use it well.

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

MG's were never meant to be a Battlemech's main armament, unless the mech was intended to be anti-infantry/anti-light armor.

I don't disagree, but at the same time, there are no infantry or "light armor" in MWO, and even if there were, that wouldn't change the fact that they can punch holes in BattleMechs just fine, even on tabletop. Actually, it's even easier on tabletop considering MWO's armor/structure values are doubled in comparison. In either case, though, it's death-of-a-thousand-cuts.

Cyborne Elemental, on 07 April 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

Mechs like the Crael, Viper-F, Juggernaut, and Piranha are stupid and convey exactly what is wrong.

With minor exception to the Piranha, as it has minimal armor and minimal range, and is actually doing what its supposed to.

Hard disagree. They are doing exactly what you should be doing if you brought mass-MGs to a BattleMech fight, in tabletop/canon and in MWO.

(Putting aside the fact Crael only has the loadout it does here because it's supposed to have melee weapons in canon and that's not a thing in MWO.)

And there's nothing wrong with that. Getting into knife-fighting range, which is a perfectly valid tactic if the battlefield conditions permit, there are few better options than mass-MG, or some other similarly small, fast rate-of-fire weapon.

If MGs need a pass, it's because they aren't doing enough.

Edited by Akamia Terizen, 08 April 2023 - 09:23 PM.

[Hunka Junk]

Yay! Let's make them useless again.

(insert ubiquitous comment about an m-16 shooting a tank)

Hint: The highest KDR players in this game are not brawlers.

Brawling barely even exists in the current meta; it's a bunch of people firing from far out whining about dying when a brawler reaches them and their ubiquitous gauss rifles/LRMs/ERLLs don't work so well vs someone with machine guns and neither do the ubiquitous two backup small lasers they have to fill extra hardpoints.

[Rondoe]

ARMOR PIERCING ROUNDS. They exist in this day and age.

While it would take a whole platoon to shoot a hole in the turret of a tank with pinpoint precision, Battlemechs don't rely on several inches of SOLID STEEL for protection. Read up on it, the whole idea of thier armor is on futuristic concepts that are nigh impossible on this day and age.

Who's to say the ARMOR PIERCING ROUND isn't also improved up on as well with better characteristics.

This is a futuristic game, set many of thousands of years later after what is modern warfare to us now.

Suspend your disbelief, as they say when playing dungeons and dragons.

Maybe gun barrels can handle more heat than your average twin 50. Cal can now? ya know mettalurgic advancements and ferro, endo, etc...

Lets consider body armor in the present day as to BATTLETECH. We have no wearable suits that give us superhuman abilities to lift weight and withstand massive assualts of superior weapons. Show me any modern day bulletproof vest that can withstand a single shot a 50. Cal sniper rifle or machince gun or hell an AK-47. They can only shield against small arms fire and not at point blank range, and even from a distance they can still punch a hole in you with a lucky shot (crit) I also remember a rule in the battlemech manual about crit's through armor.

Suspend your disbelief.

I actually play tabletop. Yes machine guns will decimate infantry and do damage to battlemechs. It's make believe technology on all fronts.

Get over the whole wah wah this and that are OP because you got your rear end kicked by this that and everything else you don't like....That is poor planning.

Adapt and survive or die.....

Edit: This all reminds me of when I went to my kids' soccerball games long ago and there is that ONE kid who throws a tantrum and has a total meltdown because they didn't get to kick the ball and the coach still gives them all a participation trophy and a pizza party after the game just to make them all feel better about getting thier arses handed to them by superior players.

Edited by Rondoe, 09 April 2023 - 02:38 AM.

[Blood Rose]

For the mentally unwell, terminally tunnel visioned and incredibly butthurt, here is (roughly) what a Battletech mech/vehicle scale MG looks like: https://en.wikipedia...i/GAU-8_Avenger
Or this: https://en.wikipedia...omatic_Gun_L/70
Imagine something like this firing a mix of HEAP (High Explosive Armour Piercing) or PFF (Proximity Fused Flechette) at you, shredding external sensors and blowing off chunks of armour (remember all armour in battletech is ablative, its not like modern tank armour). There is a reason these damage mechs and vees, there is a reason one can pretty much delete a platoon of infantry in a 10 second turn.
Likewise there are plenty of canon mechs (Piranha, Meth Lynx, Viper, a bunch of others I cant be bothered to pull up) that mount these as their primary battery. In BT they are a weapon to be feared, if used correctly, where as in MWO they are kind of meh.
I propose a change to make MG's what they should be, being them in line with the other weapons. Give them the same DPS as an AC2. and standard damage vs armour.

Additionally, all whiners should first try out the thing they are whining about. Take out an MG Viper of Piranha, you will soon realise how bad they are.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I didn't say make MG's useless.

I said boated MG's need a control.
Ghost heat isn't the answer, neither is a hard limit on how many can fire at a time.

And btw, Maxim were liquid cooled, and still prone to jams because of the crap magazine and sub-par powder fouling.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

Funny thing is, it isn't a lie.

Claiming that a weapon is "meant to be" something in context of things that did not exist when the weapon was introduced in a game is an "uninformed desinformation" at best and to me it remains a plain an simple "lie".

So yes, to me it is a lie, because machine guns in Battletech were and still are not "meant to be anti-infantry weapons" in any absolute manner.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

At least, not all of it.

No, "all of it" was a crapload of misinformation and ill-informed conclusions.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

MGs have a damage bonus against infantry that few other weapons have.

Let's ignore your superficial reading of what you quoted and let's remind "ourselves" that small pulse lasers, flamers and lthe later introduced micro pulse lasers do in fact share those bonus damage values against infantry despite also - at least in part - predating the existance of infantry as part of the Battletech table top game. If those damage bonuses suddenly turn machine guns into weapons "meant to be" anti-infantry weapons then the aforementioned engery/fire based weapons should be considered "anti-infantry" weapons as well and thus get "nerfed" accordingly as well - ignoring the fact that flamers already do abyssmal damage in MW:O.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

Autocannons don't have it until you put flechette ammo in them, and at that point they stop being anti-BattleMech weapons too, despite doing more than 2 damage to them in most cases. You'd be a fool to bring flechettes to a BattleMech fight, because they do less damage to BattleMechs than standard munitions. A little less on the smaller autocannons, a lot less on the bigger ones.

Literally irrelevant to the topic of machine guns allegedly not being anti-mech weapons.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

MGs have some niche utility against BattleMechs, but more often than not, they are a subpar option.

Which is usually more related to the dangers they pose to the carrying unit via their ammo.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

Yes, even on the BattleMechs boating them in canon, for reasons that don't apply to MWO. To become more useful in that regard, they need to be attached to an array. (Which MWO does for free, in effect)

I guess I alluded to or rather mentioned that in another section that you also read in your superficial manner aswell

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

They aren't at all a good choice for fighting aircraft, as the person you responded to here claims, but that's when you bring flak ammo and autocannons;

Fun fact: I didn't respond to that particular falsehood because that one was irrelevant with regards to machine guns allegedly not being anti-mech weapons.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

you don't want to be shooting that stuff at BattleMechs either, if you can help it, for the exact same reason you want to avoid bringing flechettes to the same situation.

More irrelevant stuff ... but thanks.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

The Piranha was literally developed by Clan Diamond Shark to combat infantry and light vehicles shortly before the Battle of Tukayyid.

Instead of almost verbatim quoting Sarna.net you might want read the original TRO-text to find that there's nuance there as well: While it was originally a "safe assumption" that the PIR-1 was built in response to the existance of unarmored infantry as part of Inner Sphere troops and definitely proved to be effective in ushering those units out from under vegetation there's no claim that its "literal" purpose was to fight infantry and light vehicles or that its machine guns were "meant" for doing that exclusively.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

The Mist Lynx G was also developed to fight infantry, though unlike the Piranha, the surrounding context for its design is more nebulous.

The information on the Mist Lynx provides zero information regarding a particular development with regards to "fighting infantry". Given the two machine gun arrays it's actually doubtful that this was actually its main purpose.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

Are they "just" anti-infantry? I mean, they can't exclusively damage infantry, but that is definitely what they are best at and purpose-built for.

As I pointed out: Being "purpose-built" for that is a bold but largely unproven claim with regards to the MLX-G and even with the favourable interpretation concerning the PIR-1 the fact remains that machine guns in Battltech still stem from a time where no infantry even existed and do comparable damage to AC2s and singular (S)SRM against mechs.

So I guess: Thanks for a whole lot of "trying to educate me on something I didn't need education on" and then comming to the outright insulting insinuation of the next two claims of yours:

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

But you are incorrect about current BattleTech lore.

Show me how and where I'm actually incorrect about BattleTech "lore".

Side note: Do note that I mainly spoke from a mechanical standpoint (which represent my actual "argument") which makes the next few sentences of yours even funnier.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

Your understanding is decades out-of-date.

Would you like to share more crystall ball insights into my "understanding"?

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

When we've hit a situation where I can pull up Sarna or even a current book that addresses the matter, and it disagrees with you, I think that's the point where you should abandon this argument of yours.

The feel free to actually do that. First look up Sarna and then preferably actually quote current rule books ... I would particularly like to see the part where machine guns do no longer deal damage against mechs in the exact same way that they always did. Once you've shown that I'll gladly refer you back to the fact that machine guns in MW:O are already weaker than they are in Batteltech ... roughly by factor 2.78 when compared against its direct AC2 cousin.

Then and just maybe then I'll actually consider "abandoning this argument of mine" that we'll have to analyse further - given your superficial reading / lack of reading comprehension and excursions into irrelevant parts, because ...

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

It's completely and utterly unconvincing.

... which part of my alleged "argument" was supposed to "convince" anyone of what exactly?

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

I agree with your conclusion where MG should be in MWO in principle, but the reasoning you're using to get there does not hold up.

My actual reasoning holds up just fine and interestingly enough you yourself kept building upon it in your next answer towards the person I responded to.

Akamia Terizen, on 08 April 2023 - 05:23 PM, said:

Please bury this line and get a better one.

I'll rather "bury" your lines .. deal?

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 09 April 2023 - 05:38 AM.

[Curccu]

JediPanther, on 08 April 2023 - 07:53 AM, said:

Mgs sucks. Not due to op dps critical hits any more. Four mgs or less are just noise makers no matter how big that mg rof quirk gets on a light. I do more damage with a laser than an mg. I got bored and ran a single mg only lct 1v vs a single spl lct1v. The spl did a lot more damage and got a few kills. The mg version just was a distraction hoping a team mate would shoot out the enemy and kill it for me.

Single SPL DPS 2,9
Singe MG DPS 1,5
in Lct-1V, that is before adding skilltree DPS boost which only affects SPL.

Cyborne Elemental, on 09 April 2023 - 05:17 AM, said:

I didn't say make MG's useless.

I said boated MG's need a control.
Ghost heat isn't the answer, neither is a hard limit on how many can fire at a time.

So what do you propose to balance them? Not to nerf them to uselessness...

Cyborne Elemental, on 09 April 2023 - 05:17 AM, said:

And btw, Maxim were liquid cooled, and still prone to jams because of the crap magazine and sub-par powder fouling.

Yes and all mechs are scifi cooled by 10 heatsinks minimum, that will easily cool down little barrel heat from MGs.

Fun story about how unreliable maxims later versions were:
"In 1963 in Yorkshire, a class of British Army armorers put one Vickers gun through probably the most strenuous test ever given to an individual gun. The base had a stockpile of approximately 5 million rounds of Mk VII ammunition which was no longer approved for military use. They took a newly rebuilt Vickers gun, and proceeded to fire the entire stock of ammo through it over the course of seven days. They worked in pairs, switching off at 30 minute intervals, with a third man shoveling away spent brass. The gun was fired in 250-round solid bursts, and the worn out barrels were changed every hour and a half. At the end of the five million rounds, the gun was taken back into the shop for inspection. It was found to be within service spec in every dimension."

Source: https://www.forgotte...he-vickers-gun/

Edited by Curccu, 09 April 2023 - 09:41 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

It would be really cool if we could get npc infantry units in a mechwarrior title, because MGs are really meant to be used on infantry.

[RickySpanish]

OP got farmed for bad positioning, brings frustration to forums in a thinly veiled 'nerf it into oblivion' thread. Why not just be honest that you want to delete a strategy and build you cannot counter, instead of hiding behind 'they need a rebalance guys!'.

Like that other guy said - just shoot the Piranha.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

RickySpanish, on 09 April 2023 - 10:06 AM, said:

OP got farmed for bad positioning, brings frustration to forums in a thinly veiled 'nerf it into oblivion' thread. Why not just be honest that you want to delete a strategy and build you cannot counter, instead of hiding behind 'they need a rebalance guys!'.

Like that other guy said - just shoot the Piranha.

but that's exactly the thing; he just can't. probably packed ALL the lurms and is busy SUPPORTING his teammates.. from behind his teammates. very much behind them. and behind the next hill, just to be safe abletosupportevenmore.
along comes a lightmech with MGs and..

and the problem in that train of thought is clearly the lightmech with MGs. so you see: SOMETHING needs to be done here.
also: smells like an Alt-account, trolling.
unrelated to lurms, but: DATA, is it one of your alts?

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 09 April 2023 - 12:49 PM.

[Vonbach]

Heavy Money, on 06 April 2023 - 08:25 PM, said:

Just shoot the Piranha.

Yeah and how many of the shots will actually register.

[Blood Rose]

feeWAIVER, on 09 April 2023 - 09:46 AM, said:

It would be really cool if we could get npc infantry units in a mechwarrior title, because MGs are really meant to be used on infantry.

It would be even cooler if seething secondaries would just accept that 35mm HEAP/PFF/AP is very much capable of degrading their mechs ablative armour rather than sobbing over how le dread MG boat light killed them.
Pulse/micro boat lights are way better at actually getting kills BTW.

[feeWAIVER]

Blood Rose, on 09 April 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

It would be even cooler if seething secondaries would just accept that 35mm HEAP/PFF/AP is very much capable of degrading their mechs ablative armour rather than sobbing over how le dread MG boat light killed them.
Pulse/micro boat lights are way better at actually getting kills BTW.

Well that makes sense because MGs are supposed to be used against infrantry.

[RickySpanish]

Vonbach, on 09 April 2023 - 01:17 PM, said:

Yeah and how many of the shots will actually register.

A near miss is good enough to halve it.

[PocketYoda]

Get an Arrow.. It send fish running..

[RickySpanish]

PocketYoda, on 09 April 2023 - 05:09 PM, said:

Get an Arrow.. It send fish running..

Arrow is really silly amounts of fun with the legit long poke on LMGs, put 3 LL on there too and make every Piranha jealous of the range on your machinegun laser combo.

Edited by RickySpanish, 09 April 2023 - 07:07 PM.

[LordNothing]

Vonbach, on 09 April 2023 - 01:17 PM, said:

Yeah and how many of the shots will actually register.

lead your targets when using non-hitscan weapons. for some reason projectile weapons arrive with a bit more lag than you would expect, even at short ranges (where the ppc or whatever would arrive before the next frame). about one or two mech-widths. if your crosshair does not turn red, you are doing it wrong.

its weird really, an is erppc should travel about 63.3 meters a frame per game tick. the fastest mech can move 5.18 meters in s tick. if i did my trig right that's 4.68 degrees of lead at single frame ranges. it seems i have to lead more than that at those ranges. game physics is quantized at either the current frame or the next, and i think it might be rounding out to the latter. the angle is the same but the travel time is longer so a shot can fall short.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 April 2023 - 09:53 PM.