58 replies to this topic

[Light Rushing B]

As someone who plays the MLX quite often, I say MG's are fine, my only complaint is the lack of ammo when I'm running HMG's
And well the range issues with MG's unless your running LMG's


That being said I say MG's are fine, compared to a gauss rifle or AC/20 you gotta spend longer to dish out the same damage with a MG boat, anyone who can torso twist and has decent aim will screw anyone using MG's.

I've been playing my MLX as of late as a light or medium hunter, squishy mechs like urbies, fleas and piranha's get absolutely clapped by the hoard of MG's.

Anything with armor, I won't even bother since well it takes so damn long to do the damage, by that time your dead.

[Curccu]

Light Rushing B, on 09 April 2023 - 09:31 PM, said:

squishy mechs like urbies,

[Blood Rose]

feeWAIVER, on 09 April 2023 - 04:04 PM, said:

Well that makes sense because MGs are supposed to be used against infrantry.

And armour. If you actually played the tabletop game, or spent half as long as you do complaining looking into the lore, then maybe you would get this.

[evil kerensky]

they shouldnt be heat neutral. it made sense for them to be heat neutral when the most you could mount was 4-6. during that time, they were something you tacked on to a small/medium pulse vomit light, and even then they werent that impressive compared to just adding more lasers. but with 8-12, and their crit chances, the dps is still on the edge of not broken, but their dph is way skewed. the flamer and rocket launchers are way more useless, and even they have heat.

8-12dps is not inherently broken, but 8-12 dps that you can fire forever without overheating IS broken. especially when you put that 12dps for no heat on a light that can easily leg hump you and never get forced to stop. thats why you dont see leg humpers using any other weapons. if they overheat leg humping, they die, so why not use the weapon with no heat, so no fear of overheating, and that also does ridiculous amounts of dps.


tl:dr, machineguns should generate more heat, or they should have their damage nerfed, because 12dps for 3-6 tons (depending on your techbase) AND 0 heat is ridiculous. it cant have high dps relative to heavier weapon systems, AND be light enough that a 20 tonner does it no problem, AND be no heat. 3 for 3 is too much, there needs to be a sacrifice in one of those categories.

[Curccu]

evil kerensky, on 10 April 2023 - 09:20 PM, said:

they shouldnt be heat neutral. it made sense for them to be heat neutral when the most you could mount was 4-6. during that time, they were something you tacked on to a small/medium pulse vomit light, and even then they werent that impressive compared to just adding more lasers. but with 8-12, and their crit chances, the dps is still on the edge of not broken, but their dph is way skewed. the flamer and rocket launchers are way more useless, and even they have heat.

8-12dps is not inherently broken, but 8-12 dps that you can fire forever without overheating IS broken. especially when you put that 12dps for no heat on a light that can easily leg hump you and never get forced to stop. thats why you dont see leg humpers using any other weapons. if they overheat leg humping, they die, so why not use the weapon with no heat, so no fear of overheating, and that also does ridiculous amounts of dps.

tl:dr, machineguns should generate more heat, or they should have their damage nerfed, because 12dps for 3-6 tons (depending on your techbase) AND 0 heat is ridiculous. it cant have high dps relative to heavier weapon systems, AND be light enough that a 20 tonner does it no problem, AND be no heat. 3 for 3 is too much, there needs to be a sacrifice in one of those categories.

Bfft 1st your light mech experience is pretty limited in quick play at least, I would play some more of them and then call them broken or OP.

anh-1x OP? 15+ sustained DPS and this can one shot piranha far away before piranha can even scratch this mechs paint with those OP machineguns.
anh-1x 15+ sustained DPS again with easier to play weapons. no knife fighting light should defeat this mech unless pilot is totally incompetent.
whm-bw OP 10+ sustained DPS optimum range half click, can take Pir leg with 1 hit.
vtr-9a1 OP? 12+ sustained DPS and almost half click optimum range and agile enough that PIR cannot leg hump this one to death.
crd-6t OP? 12-13 sustained DPS and can one shot most lights.
mad-iic OP 9+ sustained DPS with almost half click optimum hitscan range can one shot most lights.
kdk-3 15-16+ sustained DPS can one shot any light in the game
And data special MG/LURMS OP Dire dwf-c OP? Probably 12 dps with skilltree and optimum range "only" 810 can one shot most lights.

pir-2/pir-2 FYI these are way better than MG Pir.

So explain to me again why are machineguns OP that can do 8 to12 sustained DPS, staring enemy all the time with suicidal range of 150 meters?

Edited by Curccu, 11 April 2023 - 03:31 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Any weapon system that is somewhat usable (i.e. worth exposing yourself to return fire to use) gets more powerful when boated, because the exposure time (i.e. the risk) stays the same but the damage (the reward) multiplies by the number of boated weapons.

This is limited by heat capacity / dissipation in the case of energy weapons, but that isnt enough for MWO, because (unlike TT) we can aim our weapons and dont have to randomize hit locations - this is why we have ghost heat, because its simply not possible to balance a PPC in a way that means 1 of them is worth using without making 6 overpowered.

For cooler running ballistic weapons, its generally less of a problem because they are incredibly heavy, making boating them in game breaking numbers unfeasible except on extremely slow assault mechs which come with their own drawbacks. But even then an additional limit was needed for Gauss Rifles, despite being 15 tons each, simply because of their effectively zero heat.

Given this, is anyone really surprised that MGs are impossible to balance? They arent limited by heat at all, so ghost heat cannot be used, and they arent really limited by tonnage either, due to being light and getting massive damage per ton of ammo. Any stats for them than means they arent completely broken with 12 will mean they are 100% useless unless you can bring at least 6.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

they're limited by how far they shoot and by what can carry them in usable amounts.

BOTH are then countered by AIM.
OR by brains.
when you can't hit a piranha yourself and you're not willing to aim, stick around your teammates.
if you're not willing to do that, either..

well, the problem certainly isn't the PIR, or the MGs he carries.



'nuff said here, as everything is circling again.
some well meant advice:

whoever thinks something is broken and/or too good: run it yourself, see for yourself.
then learn something from that.
grass is always greener on the other side.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 11 April 2023 - 06:23 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 11 April 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

they're limited by how far they shoot and by what can carry them in usable amounts.

BOTH are then countered by AIM.
OR by brains.
when you can't hit a piranha yourself and you're not willing to aim, stick around your teammates.
if you're not willing to do that, either..

well, the problem certainly isn't the PIR, or the MGs he carries.

Its not piranhas (or mist lynxes) that are the problem. They are annoying but, as you say, countered by aim (especially with PPFLD weapons). Its the Crael. Sure, its range limited, but Crusaders are tanky as hell and MGs weigh eff all to a 65 ton mech so it can run a large LFE or standard engine and 16 hitscan dps with zero heat output is brokenly good.

Short range ceases to be a negative once you're within that range - sure, on some maps (Alpine and Marik Colosseum) getting within that range is extremely difficult, but those are the exception, not the rule - on the vast majority of maps its relatively unproblematic to use cover to close.

I dont think its a game breaking problem, but i do think its far too strong compared to alternative (i.e. possible without 10 ballistic hardpoint) options with comparable range.

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 April 2023 - 07:18 AM, said:

Its not piranhas (or mist lynxes) that are the problem. They are annoying but, as you say, countered by aim (especially with PPFLD weapons). Its the Crael. Sure, its range limited, but Crusaders are tanky as hell and MGs weigh eff all to a 65 ton mech so it can run a large LFE or standard engine and 16 hitscan dps with zero heat output is brokenly good.

Short range ceases to be a negative once you're within that range - sure, on some maps (Alpine and Marik Colosseum) getting within that range is extremely difficult, but those are the exception, not the rule - on the vast majority of maps its relatively unproblematic to use cover to close.

I dont think its a game breaking problem, but i do think its far too strong compared to alternative (i.e. possible without 10 ballistic hardpoint) options with comparable range.

Craels are super tall, slow, and have the kind of cankles that only Bill Clinton could love.

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 11 April 2023 - 07:46 AM, said:

Craels are super tall, slow, and have the kind of cankles that only Bill Clinton could love.

Crusaders have great hitboxes (which is the only reason people shoot the legs), and i wouldnt call 80 kph especially slow for a 65 ton IS mech.

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 April 2023 - 09:48 AM, said:

Crusaders have great hitboxes (which is the only reason people shoot the legs), and i wouldnt call 80 kph especially slow for a 65 ton IS mech.

They shoot the legs because they are giant targets and filled with ammo.
The Crael is incredibly slow if you're trying to get close, and the fact that it's as tall as an Atlas isn't helping it sneak up on anyone.

How fast does the 6T go? I forget, somewhere between 95 and 105, and it gets jump jets.

[RickySpanish]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 April 2023 - 07:18 AM, said:

Its not piranhas (or mist lynxes) that are the problem. They are annoying but, as you say, countered by aim (especially with PPFLD weapons). Its the Crael. Sure, its range limited, but Crusaders are tanky as hell and MGs weigh eff all to a 65 ton mech so it can run a large LFE or standard engine and 16 hitscan dps with zero heat output is brokenly good.

Short range ceases to be a negative once you're within that range - sure, on some maps (Alpine and Marik Colosseum) getting within that range is extremely difficult, but those are the exception, not the rule - on the vast majority of maps its relatively unproblematic to use cover to close.

I dont think its a game breaking problem, but i do think its far too strong compared to alternative (i.e. possible without 10 ballistic hardpoint) options with comparable range.

Honestly was not expecting you to name the Crael as that one reason machine guns are OP.

Are you guys in this thread like that dude in Austin Powers who sees a steam roller coming at him and just screams, frozen in place?

[evil kerensky]

Curccu, on 11 April 2023 - 03:24 AM, said:

Bfft 1st your light mech experience is pretty limited in quick play at least, I would play some more of them and then call them broken or OP.

anh-1x OP? 15+ sustained DPS and this can one shot piranha far away before piranha can even scratch this mechs paint with those OP machineguns.

i stopped reading after the first build. your clearly not that bright. your saying that something that weighs 48 tons is balanced because it it also weighs the same 3-6 tons that boated machine guns weigh, and is heat neutral, AND it one shots before machine guns can even scratch the paint (machine guns and hgauss have the same range, genius). and for all that extra weight you get... 2 WHOLE SUSTAINED DPS MORE, YAY.

clearly i have been defeated by your superior..... something. definitely not wit, but something.

Edited by evil kerensky, 11 April 2023 - 02:10 PM.

[An6ryMan69]

Machine-guns were already nerfed recently and some of the best MG based mechs had their MG specifc perks rolled back.

MG's are good as they are.

[Curccu]

evil kerensky, on 11 April 2023 - 02:08 PM, said:

i stopped reading after the first build. your clearly not that bright. your saying that something that weighs 48 tons is balanced because it it also weighs the same 3-6 tons that boated machine guns weigh, and is heat neutral, AND it one shots before machine guns can even scratch the paint (machine guns and hgauss have the same range, genius). and for all that extra weight you get... 2 WHOLE SUSTAINED DPS MORE, YAY.

clearly i have been defeated by your superior..... something. definitely not wit, but something.

And this is where your brains fail you so hard that you cannot even understand it. Or machinegun balance.

PS. 130meters != 220 meters

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

see above:
buy that "OP" crael.
take your crael to a game with at least decent people on the other side and look how far you'll get with it.

I'm sure it's fun, but I'm also sure that it's NOT the mech you'll get your next ace of spades in.

[Nomad5926]

An6ryMan69, on 11 April 2023 - 07:32 PM, said:

Machine-guns were already nerfed recently and some of the best MG based mechs had their MG specifc perks rolled back.

MG's are good as they are.

That is why my MG build feels off right now. I just thought it was because I haven't played in a while.

[PocketYoda]

Minor Necro?

And yes machine guns got nerfed.

[Athom83]

Nomad5926, on 01 November 2023 - 06:28 PM, said:

That is why my MG build feels off right now. I just thought it was because I haven't played in a while.

Base MGs have no point in existing. LMGs have a dramatic increase in range for the same weight and almost no drop in DPS, meanwhile HMGs have dramatically more damage with basically the same range only paying with weight of 0.5/0.25 (IS/Clan) tons each. So either your MG build needs to be the range archetype with LMGs and Medium lasers of some sort, or you go full in with HMGs and Small/Micro laser spam for the face/butt hug archetype.

Edited by Athom83, 02 November 2023 - 11:56 PM.