44 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Meep Meep, on 20 April 2023 - 12:40 PM, said:

Ok, so give me an example fit of the ecm urby with an additional half ton of weight and one more spare slot that would push it into no no land?

The mech is already broken, but a half ton + a slot gives it the ability to add JJ to a 3 lppc + 2 ml combo, or a bap to mitigate some of its radar reduction in stealth.

And with it's already broken hit reg + medium level of armor quirks its not hard for it to shed 1.5 tons, keep stealth and run 2 snubs and ml and have as much alpha as a large amount of medium mechs that don't have the ability to even equip ecm.

Even if it's hit reg wasn't broken, the combination of stealth ecm + as much firepower and 80%+ of the armor (shaved) as a 50 ton medium mech with a 30 ton mech is not good. It already has a much smaller overall box, no piled on weapon pods (only tiny weapon arms) and short legs.

[Meep Meep]

So adding a jj to the ecm urby on one solitary niche fit is game breaking? Haha get a grip man. We get it, you hate ecm but dat bias is really showing.

[PocketYoda]

Anything that nerfs LRMs is a good thing.

[foamyesque]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 April 2023 - 01:36 PM, said:

Not disputing that ECM is powerful and an insta pick on any chassis that can run it, but i think you have that backwards. Its more powerful on smaller mechs because its main strength is that you dont get a red box advertising your presence to the enemies. Assault mechs are generally fat, slow and obvious so they get noticed more easily by MK1 Eyeball and are easier to keep track of because they cant reposition easily. Lighter mechs are usually much more mobile and harder to spot visually, plus have greater need to avoid being spotted as they have less armour.

That's true, but as a fixed-tonnage equipment it represents proportionately more cost for a light mech, so it actually kind of *is* already balanced!

Edit: Personally I think ECM -- while great on any mech, obviously -- is generally best on heavies overall, which have the firepower to leverage catching someone by surprise and the mobility to get around reasonably effectively.

Edited by foamyesque, 20 April 2023 - 07:09 PM.

[Runecarver]

Meep Meep, on 19 April 2023 - 04:45 PM, said:

Well they did nerf ecm effectiveness a few patches back so that you show up on radar from farther away. Plus radar dep got a slight nerf so you don't insta drop off radar if a pixel wide terrain object momentarily breaks los. That was a fun one to abuse on the maps with lots of pipes and other spikey stuff sticking up.

That nerf was a total nothingburger. It increased the range at which an ECM cloaked target can be spotted by a few percent. No actually discernible change.

ECM does not deserve a tonnage decrease. ECM is taken every single time its available, unlike active probe which is, despite the weird reduction in size and tonnage, not worth taking most of the time.

Edited by Runecarver, 20 April 2023 - 10:17 PM.

[Wraith 1]

Making changes to BAP is easy to do; any mech can take it, and its use cases are fairly niche. ECM is completely the opposite of this, being locked to specific mechs and being useful in nearly all situations. Making a sweeping change to IS ECM is ignoring the current state of quirk and weapon balance for different mechs and tech bases.

Furthermore, while I'm certainly not a Battletech purist, why not at least try to balance tech for its proper weight before messing with it? Some niche advantage such as a slight boost to ECM cancellation radius for IS BAP, or a slight reduction in how long IS ECM is disabled for after being hit by a PPC, are things which would add more variety to the game and probably be a less controversial way to bring parity between the two tech bases.

[Meep Meep]

So far all I have as a solid example of a negative for reducing IS ecm fittings by half a ton and one slot is the ecm urbie gets one more jj. Does anyone else have any specific examples of how this change would break balance or cause undue buffs to mechs or just more theory crafting of vague outcomes of doom n gloom?

[Runecarver]

Meep Meep, on 21 April 2023 - 12:30 AM, said:

So far all I have as a solid example of a negative for reducing IS ecm fittings by half a ton and one slot is the ecm urbie gets one more jj. Does anyone else have any specific examples of how this change would break balance or cause undue buffs to mechs or just more theory crafting of vague outcomes of doom n gloom?

Do you have any solid argument beyond "because I want the power creep to further min max my already strong ECM mechs"?

is ECM is just as strong as the clan one, despite the 1 slot and half ton extra cost. And for the added cost, its got more component health than the clan ECM. ECM in fact requires nerfs because of how strong it is.

[Meep Meep]

Runecarver, on 21 April 2023 - 02:16 AM, said:

Do you have any solid argument beyond "because I want the power creep to further min max my already strong ECM mechs"?

is ECM is just as strong as the clan one, despite the 1 slot and half ton extra cost. And for the added cost, its got more component health than the clan ECM. ECM in fact requires nerfs because of how strong it is.

Precedent and QoL on fittings? The burden on refusing something is to prove a change is going to be adversely negative vs the gains. A half ton of ammo or a jj with an extra slot isn't going to make or break any IS ecm mech and if they can always reduce the health to match the new size. I can think of only a handful of times over thousands of games that I lost an ecm of either faction to crits before I popped.

So any more arguments?

[Runecarver]

Meep Meep, on 21 April 2023 - 02:27 AM, said:

Precedent and QoL on fittings? The burden on refusing something is to prove a change is going to be adversely negative vs the gains. A half ton of ammo or a jj with an extra slot isn't going to make or break any IS ecm mech and if they can always reduce the health to match the new size. I can think of only a handful of times over thousands of games that I lost an ecm of either faction to crits before I popped.

So any more arguments?

Precendent is a poor one, IS BAP shouldn't have gotten its tonnage and size changed because just reducing those won't incentivize people to take it more against ECM. BAP and C-AP should have gotten their ECM countering abilities improved if the idea was to incentivize their use. And "quality of life" for ECM mechs is already beyond good, so thats an even worse reason. That half ton and one slot can facilitate an extra heatsink, more engine rating, or more armor depending on mech and loadout.

ECM is already basically free stealth armor, with none of the drawbacks that stealth armor pays for. It requires a nerf because of how strong it is, and how prolific the amount of ECM variants have become.

[sycocys]

Meep Meep, on 20 April 2023 - 03:14 PM, said:

So adding a jj to the ecm urby on one solitary niche fit is game breaking? Haha get a grip man. We get it, you hate ecm but dat bias is really showing.

Adding JJ to a mech build combination that already has hit detection issues is a problem. In its current state that mech can already absorb as much damage as a 50 ton medium without the large amount of damage that it vanishes. So yeah buffing already broken mechs even a small amount is not good for the game.

And yes, I've state many times since they released ecm that their design of it is broken on its own, and with the design of the maps and poorly designed skill tree there really isn't any need for the ecm system at all.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

sycocys, on 21 April 2023 - 04:31 AM, said:

Adding JJ to a mech build combination that already has hit detection issues is a problem. In its current state that mech can already absorb as much damage as a 50 ton medium without the large amount of damage that it vanishes. So yeah buffing already broken mechs even a small amount is not good for the game.

And yes, I've state many times since they released ecm that their design of it is broken on its own, and with the design of the maps and poorly designed skill tree there really isn't any need for the ecm system at all.

ah.. now that must be the reason why we see the ecm-urbie top-performing on a regular basis; 1400+dmg, 9+kills etc.
man, you really seem to hate that little guy, eh?

personally, the ecm-urbie is/was my LEAST performing one, but ymmv.
pls, go and buy one yourself with some free-cbills. then show us some pics of overperforming matches.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 21 April 2023 - 07:06 AM.

[sycocys]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 21 April 2023 - 04:47 AM, said:

personally, the ecm-urbie is/was my LEAST performing one, but ymmv.
pls, go and buy one yourself with some free-cbills. then show us some pics of overperforming matches.

They are all broken, that one is just broken plus stealth.

[foamyesque]

I mean, an extra half ton and slot is categorically a buff to every single IS ECM machine, all of which have something they could do with that. And it's a buff that isn't needed, so why bother?

On the other hand, while I personally take BAP on a number of 'mechs and aren't going to turn down the benefits there, the benefits of BAP at 1.5t in this game have been always kind of borderline. The increased sensor range and faster paper doll data make it at least arguable on snipers over a larger TComp, and it's useful for lockon builds, but on the other hand you're giving up two slots to get it, which could be two tons of ammo, JJs, an AMS system, etc. It's overall a much weaker piece of gear and because it's equippable on every single IS mech a buff to it isn't a buff to any one chassis variant.

So I don't think the argument for parity between the ECM and AP gear holds. One's already in fact the single best investment in the game aside from the *Clan* ECM; the other... isn't. There's no reason to treat 'em in the same way.

Heck, if BAP is less of an ask to fit on a 'mech maybe we'll see more people using them and cut into the overwhelming amounts of ECM already out there. Man can hope.

[Meep Meep]

Runecarver, on 21 April 2023 - 03:00 AM, said:

Precendent is a poor one, IS BAP shouldn't have gotten its tonnage and size changed because just reducing those won't incentivize people to take it more against ECM. BAP and C-AP should have gotten their ECM countering abilities improved if the idea was to incentivize their use. And "quality of life" for ECM mechs is already beyond good, so thats an even worse reason. That half ton and one slot can facilitate an extra heatsink, more engine rating, or more armor depending on mech and loadout.

ECM is already basically free stealth armor, with none of the drawbacks that stealth armor pays for. It requires a nerf because of how strong it is, and how prolific the amount of ECM variants have become.

More theory crafting. Give me some examples of actual fits that would drive an IS mech into op territory by reducing ecm by half a ton and one slot.

Again we get it you don't like ecm and want its ~effectiveness~ reduced. Thats a completely different balance thread than this which is simply a QoL change for fittings. Nothing about the ~effectiveness~ of ecm would change past maybe reducing its health to be in line with the clan ecm.

Just to be fair I was going through ecm fits on mechlab and the only IS mech that got any real benefit was the pirates bane as it allowed for a full ton of lmg ammo with full ferro and it regained a bit of shaved arm armor(8 to 11). Hardly game breaking on a mech that isn't seen all that much because the fle20 outclasses it in every way for a sneaky backstabbing ankle biter. Oh and it does nothing for the fle20 other than getting back some head armor since the slot savings doesn't allow for a full ferro fit.

There are not many IS ecm mechs so go to the mechlab and gin up some of these supposed op fits.

foamyesque, on 21 April 2023 - 11:04 AM, said:

I mean, an extra half ton and slot is categorically a buff to every single IS ECM machine, all of which have something they could do with that. And it's a buff that isn't needed, so why bother?

Categorically yes. But effectively? Will need to see specific IS ecm fits that meaningfully push said mech into higher performance.

Edited by Meep Meep, 21 April 2023 - 11:16 AM.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 21 April 2023 - 11:13 AM, said:

Categorically yes. But effectively? Will need to see specific IS ecm fits that meaningfully push said mech into higher performance.

I mean, literally any buff to 'already best thing you can mount' is, you know, too much.

The practical effect would probably be relatively minor in most cases -- maybe it buys you a JJ, more ammo, more leg armour, or gets you to the next bit of engine -- but on some mechs it might be buying you stealth armour or LFF or make certain torso weapon fits work where they couldn't before (e.g. the twin gauss Thanatos would be able to carry stealth armour and a LFE). Even where this is only a small improvement and not 'previously impossible build now doable', it'll be noticeable.

I think it would also be particularly relevant for sphere lights, which are very constricted on tonnage to begin with. An extra half ton on a Pirate's Bane is something like 10% of its free tonnage, you know?

Edited by foamyesque, 21 April 2023 - 11:35 AM.

[Meep Meep]

foamyesque, on 21 April 2023 - 11:26 AM, said:

I mean, literally any buff to 'already best thing you can mount' is, you know, too much.

But thats a biased opinion because you hate ecm. Thats your right but it has nothing to do with balance or fittings. So no examples of fits that would drive an IS mech into op land? You argument seems to be revolving around do you want to get punched by superman or superman with brass knuckles? Yes supes with the brass knuckles is ~technically~ stronger but really does it matter?

Edited by Meep Meep, 21 April 2023 - 11:35 AM.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 21 April 2023 - 11:33 AM, said:

But thats a biased opinion because you hate ecm.

I don't hate ECM at all. I run lots of ECM machines and I carry tools to deal with other people's ECM. But it is nevertheless the case that it is, far and away, the single most effective use of tonnage you can apply to a mech, which is why basically every mech capable of it carries it and why most mechs that can carry it have to trade off hardpoints for it.

As such, it requires no buff at all, and certainly not for what amounts to an aesthetic 'symmetry with BAP' reason.

Edited by foamyesque, 21 April 2023 - 11:42 AM.

[Meep Meep]

foamyesque, on 21 April 2023 - 11:41 AM, said:

I don't hate ECM at all. I run lots of ECM machines and I carry tools to deal with other people's ECM. But it is nevertheless the case that it is, far and away, the single most effective use of tonnage you can apply to a mech, which is why basically every mech capable of it carries it and why most mechs that can carry it have to trade off hardpoints for it.

As such, it requires no buff at all, and certainly not for what amounts to an aesthetic 'symmetry with BAP' reason.

But its not a buff. Ecm effectiveness and mechanics would be unchanged? Its a very slight buff to fittings yes but that was the reasoning for the bap change as QoL. No one is going to be using it more now that wasn't using it before and the same would apply here. How does a half ton more ammo or a bit of shaved armor have anything to do with ecm? Its back to the supes or supes with brass knuckles line again.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 21 April 2023 - 11:50 AM, said:

But its not a buff. Ecm effectiveness and mechanics would be unchanged? Its a very slight buff to fittings yes but that was the reasoning for the bap change as QoL. No one is going to be using it more now that wasn't using it before and the same would apply here. How does a half ton more ammo or a bit of shaved armor have anything to do with ecm? Its back to the supes or supes with brass knuckles line again.

A mech is an entire system you goof. You're asking 'how would a mech that can now carry more stuff be more effective', like come *on*.

Making mechs with BAP more effective is fine because at 1.5t and 2 slots you over-pay for a BAP.

Making mechs with ECM more effective is not, because at 1.5t and 2 slots *and hardpoints* you're still *underpaying* for ECM.

Edited by foamyesque, 21 April 2023 - 11:56 AM.