22 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

So since Cauldron is in the mood for a fittings rework how about a little love for IS ppc?



Currents slots:

Heavy PPC 4

ER PPC 3

PPC 3

Snub Nose PPC 2

LPPC 2



Proposed slots:

Heavy PPC 4

ER PPC 3

PPC 2

Snub Nose PPC 2

LPPC 1(optionally -0.5 tons)


Clan keeps its slot and weight advantage which allows pretty much any clan mech with energy mounts to use them but now more medium and light IS mechs can mount ppc and lppc effectively which is what those class of ppc were meant to be run on.

Thoughts and examples of mechs it would push into op territory?

[foamyesque]

You're just trolling now.

[Meep Meep]

So how does this destroy the game oh foamy one? (btw its hilarious to read your posts in your voip voice)

[Heavy Money]

What for?

LPPCs are already excellent and shouldn't be buffed.

Vanilla PPCs aren't very good, but its because their heat efficiency is so bad. Slot size isn't the problem. And changing it won't really help them. It'll let you fit 1 more DHS on a triple PPC mech.

There's been a bunch of discussion in the Cauldron about overhauling regular PPCs and most of it has been about improved damage and heat at the cost of making their ghost heat limit 2 instead of 3. Nothing seems to be happening on that though.

[foamyesque]

Heavy Money, on 21 April 2023 - 05:35 PM, said:

What for?

LPPCs are already excellent and shouldn't be buffed.

Vanilla PPCs aren't very good, but its because their heat efficiency is so bad. Slot size isn't the problem. And changing it won't really help them. It'll let you fit 1 more DHS on a triple PPC mech.

There's been a bunch of discussion in the Cauldron about overhauling regular PPCs and most of it has been about improved damage and heat at the cost of making their ghost heat limit 2 instead of 3. Nothing seems to be happening on that though.

Why would someone want to reduce their HSL? It's the biggest thing keeping them even remotely competitive with the other sphere PPCs and heavies can already match the pinpoint of a triple standard PPC layout with one less ton and crit spent to boot.

Improved heat efficiency and maybe cycle time would be nice, though it might impinge a bit on the LPPC niche, but the HSL should be left alone.

[Heavy Money]

foamyesque, on 21 April 2023 - 06:53 PM, said:

Why would someone want to reduce their HSL? It's the biggest thing keeping them even remotely competitive with the other sphere PPCs and heavies can already match the pinpoint of a triple standard PPC layout with one less ton and crit spent to boot.

Improved heat efficiency and maybe cycle time would be nice, though it might impinge a bit on the LPPC niche, but the HSL should be left alone.

The HSL change would be in the context of increasing their damage, similar to how snubs ended up. But neither is likely to happen. Its been discussed for over a year but nothing has actually been done.

Edited by Heavy Money, 21 April 2023 - 06:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

i kind of wish clans had a lighter ppc option. be great with lerm/atm/streak boats.

other than that ppcs are fine.

[Bud Crue]

A bit of a vent related to this, I've tried to take advantage of Cauldron provided quirks on many less than ideal mechs to try and get a feel for where they were trying to go in terms of a build specific buff, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what the thinking was with the +1 HSL standard PPC quirk on the Highlander 733P, especially when the thing also has a +1 HSL for snubs.

Anyway, even on a mech like that, one tailored to accommodate a standard PPC build, space isn't the issue, it's the PPCS other many limitations that make a build based on them less than desirable/optimal/fun. To hot, to heavy, not enough damage compared to their counterparts, etc.

For my money, I would leave the space requirements the same as they are and then make them a hybrid of the snub/LPPc (remove the close range damage drop off, add a bit of splash (1.5 x2), maybe a tad less heat), alternatively, leave everything as is and add the splash damage (or PP of 12) so that three of them (at 21 tons and 9 crits) actually provide some benefit over 2 HPPCs (at 20 tons and 8 crits).

As it is, I can't see any reason to take standard PPCS on any mech and I am not afraid of playing goofy/substandard builds, but even then they need a reason to be played and PPCs builds fail to provide one/any, but that isn't because of their crit slot limitations.

Related, I don't think IS-ERPPCs are in a much better place either. Honestly the more I think about it overall, ERPPCs are the purview of my clan mechs, while snubs, LPPCs and HPPCs are used on the IS side here and there. But I play zero PPC builds regularly, and unless an IS mech is specifically and heavily quirked for ERPPCS I don't even consider them either (salute to the guy last night taking advantage of the +1HSL quirk of the Grasshopper 2N). But that's for a different thread I suppose.

Edited by Bud Crue, 22 April 2023 - 05:55 AM.

[JediPanther]

I'd rather have half the heat so I could fire more than maybe six times with the k2. With all the power creep a meager 20-30 dmg from two is ppc is a joke. Screw the hppc when three lppc work so much better for the heat with higher dps.

[Verilligo]

The problem to me seems to be that there are too many PPCs on the IS side all trying to sit in roughly the same region while carving out their own niches. There's no room to breathe for all of them to sit in roughly the same region to do roughly the same things. Sure, they each have small features that benefit them and match up better with certain weapons depending on range and quirks, but by and large if you bump the stats of one you step on the toes of another.

[LordNothing]

Bud Crue, on 22 April 2023 - 05:54 AM, said:

A bit of a vent related to this, I've tried to take advantage of Cauldron provided quirks on many less than ideal mechs to try and get a feel for where they were trying to go in terms of a build specific buff, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what the thinking was with the +1 HSL standard PPC quirk on the Highlander 733P, especially when the thing also has a +1 HSL for snubs.

Anyway, even on a mech like that, one tailored to accommodate a standard PPC build, space isn't the issue, it's the PPCS other many limitations that make a build based on them less than desirable/optimal/fun. To hot, to heavy, not enough damage compared to their counterparts, etc.

For my money, I would leave the space requirements the same as they are and then make them a hybrid of the snub/LPPc (remove the close range damage drop off, add a bit of splash (1.5 x2), maybe a tad less heat), alternatively, leave everything as is and add the splash damage (or PP of 12) so that three of them (at 21 tons and 9 crits) actually provide some benefit over 2 HPPCs (at 20 tons and 8 crits).

As it is, I can't see any reason to take standard PPCS on any mech and I am not afraid of playing goofy/substandard builds, but even then they need a reason to be played and PPCs builds fail to provide one/any, but that isn't because of their crit slot limitations.

Related, I don't think IS-ERPPCs are in a much better place either. Honestly the more I think about it overall, ERPPCs are the purview of my clan mechs, while snubs, LPPCs and HPPCs are used on the IS side here and there. But I play zero PPC builds regularly, and unless an IS mech is specifically and heavily quirked for ERPPCS I don't even consider them either (salute to the guy last night taking advantage of the +1HSL quirk of the Grasshopper 2N). But that's for a different thread I suppose.

while i like to see hsl quirks. i cant help but not like what they represent. intentionally placed loopholes in the ghost heat rules. i think the reasoning with the hgn-733p here is so you cant boat 3 hppcs without gh. of course i dont understand why that doesnt apply to erppc or lppc. standard, snub, and nothing else doesnt make any sense. i dont see why you wouldnt give lppcs the quirk. excluding hppcs, and to a lesser degree erppc makes sense.

hppc is definately the one i use the least, i have more std ppc builds than hppc builds. std peeps used to be the ones i thought didnt have a role. i find im using a lot of lights and snubs, and the mighty cerppc, mostly. erppc i use specifically in range boats (a playstyle i generally find boring). i figure a big reason for my lack of use of the hppc is its min range. ive also seen hppc mechs where i can use its 5s cooldown and get inside its min range and completely invalidate their loadout. at least give it a soft min range like the std, and maybe some extra splash.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 April 2023 - 01:06 PM.

[MrTBSC]

<<<< prefers IS standart PPCs over ER ...
i run them within an autocannonbuild on heavys or assaults if i don´t go for HPPCs

ERPPC be it IS or Clan i just find TOO hot, though i do run them every now and then ...

IS standart i don´t find problematic really ... sure compared to standart large lasers 2 tons may be quite a factor for your weaponbuild with a meager 1 point more damage
but for being able to fire and twist away better i take them over LLs and LPLs were you have to keep your sights on target for the duration ...

i don´t think the ammount of IS PPC options is a problem, to me it´s more a matter of how many energyhardpoints do i have access to and do i really want to go for DoT or PPFLD .. i don´t think standart PPCs need any damageadjustment compared to light PPCs .. MAYBE a slight rangeextention .. heatwise i find both cold enough ... each and any of them imho couples nicely in combination of AC builds be it AC 20+snub, AC10+hppc/standart or LPPCs on lighter mechs, or AC5+LPPC (even with a different rangebracket) ... the only other thing i could think of is maybe giving standart and HPPCs the snub/clan ER PPC treatment with damage to adjacent components .. but that would be really it ...


... i would indeed agree that lack of options hurts Clan a bit ... their weapons may be more "efficient" (despite the greater heatgeneration) over their IS counterparts but lack some variety to allow a broader range of interesting builds ...
while i found use for example with heavy medium lasers imho they are still one of the more difficult weapons to combine with other weapons mostly SRMs, ATMs and LBX 20 ... so i would like to see a bit of a heatadjustment there ... but thing is heavy lasers HAVE at least size variants ... there is nothing else for Clan PPCs or CLAN Gauss at the moment ..
lorewise Clan develope the HAG but still nothing noteworthy on PPC variety or variants ... ... maybe some sort of burst ppc similar to UACs? or rotary ppc?

Edited by MrTBSC, 22 April 2023 - 01:29 PM.

[Bud Crue]

LordNothing, on 22 April 2023 - 12:54 PM, said:

while i like to see hsl quirks. i cant help but not like what they represent. intentionally placed loopholes in the ghost heat rules. i think the reasoning with the hgn-733p here is so you cant boat 3 hppcs without gh. of course i dont understand why that doesnt apply to erppc or lppc. standard, snub, and nothing else doesnt make any sense. i dont see why you wouldnt give lppcs the quirk. excluding hppcs, and to a lesser degree erppc makes sense.

hppc is definately the one i use the least, i have more std ppc builds than hppc builds. std peeps used to be the ones i thought didnt have a role. i find im using a lot of lights and snubs, and the mighty cerppc, mostly. erppc i use specifically in range boats (a playstyle i generally find boring). i figure a big reason for my lack of use of the hppc is its min range. ive also seen hppc mechs where i can use its 5s cooldown and get inside its min range and completely invalidate their loadout. at least give it a soft min range like the std, and maybe some extra splash.

The +1HSL quirks on the 733-P only apply to standard PPCs and Snubs true, but 3 HPPCs (which other mechs due better certainly) would still be superior even with GH, but why bother with either when you can do 3 Snubs and a bunch of missles with no drawbacks? Its the only mech in the game with a standard PPC HSL quirk and yet it does nothing to give the mech a unique flavor as 4 PPCs is just weak sauce even with the HSL quirk. But the bigger point, in accordance with the point of the OP, is that PPCs 3 crit requirement is not what makes such a build relatively weak or limited, but rather the other elements of standard PPCs (middling range, middling damage and for 7 tons, damage drop off at minimum range, heat, cool-down, etc.) which make them less than desirable even with the HSL quirk.

BTW if you haven't tried 3 HPPCs or even 4 on a Awesome 8Q, you really need to. Yes, a light can kill you if it gets inside, but what else is new if you screw your positioning, etc.

[LordNothing]

pretty sure i have an awesome configured thusly.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 April 2023 - 07:54 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bud Crue, on 22 April 2023 - 01:33 PM, said:

The +1HSL quirks on the 733-P only apply to standard PPCs and Snubs true, but 3 HPPCs (which other mechs due better certainly) would still be superior even with GH, but why bother with either when you can do 3 Snubs and a bunch of missles with no drawbacks? Its the only mech in the game with a standard PPC HSL quirk and yet it does nothing to give the mech a unique flavor as 4 PPCs is just weak sauce even with the HSL quirk. But the bigger point, in accordance with the point of the OP, is that PPCs 3 crit requirement is not what makes such a build relatively weak or limited, but rather the other elements of standard PPCs (middling range, middling damage and for 7 tons, damage drop off at minimum range, heat, cool-down, etc.) which make them less than desirable even with the HSL quirk.

BTW if you haven't tried 3 HPPCs or even 4 on a Awesome 8Q, you really need to. Yes, a light can kill you if it gets inside, but what else is new if you screw your positioning, etc.

3x HPPC: 30 tons, 12 slots, 45 dmg, 5s CD, 39 heat, 9.0 DPS, hard 90m min range

4x PPC: 28 tons, 12 slots, 40 dmg 4s CD, 36 heat, 10.0 DPS, scaling 90m min range)

Id argue the 4xPPC would be a better build on the 733P even if it did have an HSL quirk applicable to 3xHPPC. The HPPC is higher alpha by 5 points, but the PPCs are 2 tons lighter, fire 20% more frequently and, importantly for a slow mech like a highlander, the minimum range is much more forgiving.

i do agree that 3 snubs + SRMs is the obvious build choice, but 4 PPCs + MRMs is a reasonable alternative.

[KursedVixen]

Meep Meep, on 21 April 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

So since Cauldron is in the mood for a fittings rework how about a little love for IS ppc?



Currents slots:

Heavy PPC 4

ER PPC 3

PPC 3

Snub Nose PPC 2

LPPC 2



Proposed slots:

Heavy PPC 4

ER PPC 3

PPC 2

Snub Nose PPC 2

LPPC 1(optionally -0.5 tons)


Clan keeps its slot and weight advantage which allows pretty much any clan mech with energy mounts to use them but now more medium and light IS mechs can mount ppc and lppc effectively which is what those class of ppc were meant to be run on.

Thoughts and examples of mechs it would push into op territory?

NO! If you want clan tech in your IS mech just ask for clan tech... I'm tired of is getting smaller stuff just cus PGI and the cauldron are a bunch of IS fan boys who think Clans should always lose.

How about this instead lower the heat of C ERPPC? as far as i know it's the only PPC that does use most of it's tabeltop stats... say 12.5 or 13 heat instead of what it is?

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 April 2023 - 04:52 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

KursedVixen, on 24 April 2023 - 04:26 AM, said:

NO! If you want clan tech in your IS mech just ask for clan tech... I'm tired of is getting smaller stuff just cus PGI and the cauldron are a bunch of IS fan boys who think Clans should always lose.

How about this instead lower the heat of C ERPPC? as far as i know it's the only PPC that doesn't use it's tabeltop stats...

How about not changing the topic? If you want to discuss Clan equipment, make a new discussion and we can all have a good laugh.

On topic, I don't think that a slot reduction is the right way to change IS PPC weapons. I'd rather see linear damage fall-off for HPPC and a slight heat reduction for both HPPC and PPC.

[KursedVixen]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 24 April 2023 - 04:48 AM, said:

How about not changing the topic? If you want to discuss Clan equipment, make a new discussion and we can all have a good laugh. On topic, I don't think that a slot reduction is the right way to change IS PPC weapons. I'd rather see linear damage fall-off for HPPC and a slight heat reduction for both HPPC and PPC.

How about you drop any more ways to make Inner sphere any more OP than it is?

you already got the minimium range removed from the ppc you don't need to be gifted more for being on PGI's favorite faction.


P.S. Why make a topic nobody will reply to? this is completely on topic of PPC.

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 April 2023 - 04:55 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

if any side is OP in the current meta is Clan (then again clan do have better equipment.)

as for PPC no, they are find the way they are as far as slot size and weight. oh i'm sure bot clan and IS could use some small tweaks. i know the reason for all these threads lately about lightening IS equipment. its because they lightened Beagle Probe. (reality check BP is something that people almost never take and even with the changes i doubt that will change much)

IS gets more love on balance passes because they are trying to balance for QP where you have mixed units. yeah IS tend to be tankier but Clan do more damage and have longer range not to mention lighter equipment at the slight cost of greater heat.

(hell you know how much clan players would scream if we went with Lore unit sizes for FP instead of even numbers. if we followed Lore Clans would drop with fewer mechs)

[KursedVixen]

more range? Barely look at the actual stats any range diffrence has been nerfed to almost nothing.... 20 meters is like 0 in this game.


let me pull up an example

ER large laser

IS Opt 740
MAx 1480

Clan: Opt 810
Max 1620

Diffrence optimum range:70
Max difference 140

ER medium laser

IS Opt 360
Max 720

Clan Opt 400
Max 800

Opt diff 40
Max diff 80


Actually if we stuck with lore for FP clans would have more mechs clans go in stars of 5 IS in lances of 4.


And there's the problem of in quick play that your not just facing IS your also facing clan so you can't just balance Is vs clan... you have to aslo balance for clan vs clan and IS vs IS

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 April 2023 - 02:38 PM.