109 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

The feet need to be much flatter with a slightly smaller surface area. I understand a mech doesn't want to sink into soft ground, but that is overkill. They look to be 40 tons by themselves. Also, it doesn't look like the Longtom can pitch up very high which without moving the torso, and I imagine that would overload the gyro and make it fall over.

But a cool design regardless! I'm surprised something like this isn't in BTech.

[Bishop Steiner]

EDMW CSN, on 28 July 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Doubt you can mount a LT artillery on a mech, waaay too much crits needed, and you can't spread a weapon to 3 locations. Still a nice effort though.

Under "Step 10. Complete Critical Hit Tables.""The criticals for AC20 type weapons, Arrow IV missile systems, and artillery weapons (Long Tom, Thumper, and Sniper) can be split between adjacent locations."Also in the 1994 hardcover edition of the compendium, pg 102.Since those were the rules when I designed it, I am gonna grandfather it, and honestly not care what people think. Also note that while it says 2 adjacent locations, that it specifically lists the Long Tom, which even if ALL crits were available in an arm and side torso, would be a max of 24. Now since the arms are required to have a shoulder and upper arm actuator (something I forgot when scribbling that on scratch paper at work), in reality, that would be 22 crits. Meaning either a Long Tom is NOT allowed, contrary to text, or the number of locations is wrong.At the tournament I ran it, the judges ruled in favor of letting the Long Tom live. *shrugs*

Mind you, FanPro and Catalyst seemed to have gone about butchering the old FASA rules into as unrecognizable a mess as possible in their haste to add rotary ACs, C3is, Ipods and whatever the heck else the Jihad spawned (aside from the most broken and stupid mechs and cyborgs, totally dgoing against everything Battletech ever represented), but since I made the mech in 1995, using 1994 rules, I will stick by what the tourney judges did. There are certainly flaws in the crit sheet, as I was unable to access sourcebboks at work, but the general design WAS build-able when I did build it. What the current rules say,I honestly don't know as I refuse to give Catalyst a single penny.

[Bishop Steiner]

Klessdine, on 28 July 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

If your arty is 30 km away why would you need them to be mounted on a mech instead of towed by a truck? Awesome looking mech. Totally unnecessary.

If you bothered to read the thread you would have the answer. Wheeled vehicles are limited to roads and light terrain. Tracks cannot deal with mountains, heavy forest and water. Mechs can traverse ALL of them, and can also beat a stategic retreat to the landing zone a heck of a lot faster when the forces are overrun. since a fighting withdrawal is one of the hardest manueevers to succesfully pull off, and arty and other support units are usually the ones left behind because they are overrun, a unit that is not prone to that is rather useful, especially against an enemy as mobile as the Clans.

Add into it the fact that the clans usually slaughter "dishonorable" artillery crews to the man, and you might see whu alternative arty is useful. Especially since my fusiuon reactor works in atmospheres that would kill the trucks ICE.

But hey, what do I know? Other than I sure hope you are not in charge of a Merc company, since your overlooking the obvious will get them all killed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mason Storm, on 28 July 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

You have Triple Strength Myomer on something that can not overheat and utilize it. You dissipate 20 heat per turn yet with 4 Medium Lasers as your primary source of heat you are always cool.

yup. The gun makes 20 heat. I got 20 heatsinks. Oh yeah... moving makes heat. 1 for walking, 2 for running... thats 1-2 pointsw waste heat a turn..so in about 40 seconds, BANG, TSM time. Faster if I fire the lasers too, or disengage several heat sinks. What purpose? Lets see, several heavies moving at 64 kph break into our rear area, .. my moving 64 kph is not going to out run them to get to safety. But Moving at 86 kph certainly will. What's this, a hatchet man gets up close and personal... let's see, how does a 40 pt jump kick sound?

Gotta say, either most of ya have never played TT, or something. Since to any veteran player, most of these facotors are sorta obvious.

[Haydin]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 July 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

yup. The gun makes 20 heat. I got 20 heatsinks. Oh yeah... moving makes heat. 1 for walking, 2 for running... thats 1-2 pointsw waste heat a turn..so in about 40 seconds, BANG, TSM time. Faster if I fire the lasers too, or disengage several heat sinks. What purpose? Lets see, several heavies moving at 64 kph break into our rear area, .. my moving 64 kph is not going to out run them to get to safety. But Moving at 86 kph certainly will. What's this, a hatchet man gets up close and personal... let's see, how does a 40 pt jump kick sound?

Gotta say, either most of ya have never played TT, or something. Since to any veteran player, most of these facotors are sorta obvious.

You can also disable heat sinks.

[Axatillian]

I know it's not against the rules but TSM in the head.......

[anglomanii]

nice, it would be kinda sweet if they hold comps for people to design mechs that might make it into the game at a later date, with all that space out there who's to say a limited run of mechs never got put into the standard tech read outs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Axatillian, on 28 July 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

I know it's not against the rules but TSM in the head.......

*shrugs* These are the same rules that say you MUST have a shoulder and upper arm actuator.... despite designs like teh Stalker and Hoplite obviously possessing neither (though by BT rules, since they HAVE to have those 2, they are then capable of rotating their arm weapons to their rear.... just like the rifleman. )

The same rules that state that because ferro armor is bulky... it takes up INTERNAL space?

the same rules that say an AC 5 or ac 2 cannot hit you at under 90 meters or so? Or a gauss slug under 60? (How does that work again? Is the bullet intangible until it reaches 90 meters.. or the barrel so long to get the extra range that it reaches 90 meters?)

Pretty much saying... hey half the rules make no sense, so you do what you gotta.

In an ideal world, any mech using Endo steel would have to distrinute it evenly in ALL locations, and TSM in all limbs and side torsos. And that Ferro would not take internal space.... and that guns could, actually be mounted EXTERNALLY, like so many are depicted... and thus take up NO internal space.

Makes that give up arm actuators, should have lighter Internal Structures, etc.

[ExAstris]

Excellent concept art.

Great fantasy mech. I had a similar one I built in the wizkids game, except I put mine on the back of an Ursa. While it lacked the classic TT mass/crits to actually mount it, the model looked far more functional for carrying such a gargantuan weapon.

But as others have said, it is questionable whether the mech is legal in most (if not all?) TT tournament settings, nor does a similar design have any place in MWO (as artillery of this sort will be off-board).

Very well thought out though, cheers.

[Telecleez]

actually the minium range just means it's harder to make a hit with the weapon not that it wont do any damage battletech master rules pg.29 paragraph 5 under minimum range modifiers

[Bishop Steiner]

Yes, because we all know a bullet does MORE damage 100 ft from the barrel.......

tis basically the point I was making.

ExAstris, on 28 July 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Excellent concept art.

Great fantasy mech. I had a similar one I built in the wizkids game, except I put mine on the back of an Ursa. While it lacked the classic TT mass/crits to actually mount it, the model looked far more functional for carrying such a gargantuan weapon.

But as others have said, it is questionable whether the mech is legal in most (if not all?) TT tournament settings, nor does a similar design have any place in MWO (as artillery of this sort will be off-board).

Very well thought out though, cheers.

Largely true today I find, though it was actually quite legal for tourney play when I created it. And truth to tell, I avoid the official tourneys today, because I truly hate the monty hall gimmick fest modern day Battletech has become. Tis why I love the timeline for this game so very much........

[Bishop Steiner]

Skylarr, on 28 July 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Your a little off on your math. Each Map is 17 Hexes long. Each Hex is 30 Meters. So that is 510 Meters each Map. 20 Maps x 510 is 10200 meters. 10.2 Kilometers ( 6.34 miles).

except that it states each hex is APPROXIMATELY 30 meters. WHereas page 78 of the compendium, under artilerry, specifically states the length of a map at 500 meters. PERIOD.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightdragon, on 28 July 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

more crew, less expenses, besides with the size of a long tom its use is very limited in a mech after mounting the gun that weighs as much as a mech youll have room for maybe 5 shots at hte most in the chasis a sniper would be a far more effective arty piece on a mech

odd...looks like I mounted 15 shots in the magazine. Which is easily crew served by the Hunchback point defense mech. So... next poorly thought out argument?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 July 2012 - 05:21 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

OK, finally got an edited, old rules specific, accurately done post (and figure out how to post it as a spoiler). Admittedly, the thing ain't modern Tournament legal (heck, it stretched the rules back in 94/95) but then again, a lot of the mods being done on MWO, aren't "TT Tourney" Legal. Still makes a fun design for home TT play, at least for those who understand how to use artillery.

So before attacking this or that aspect, first kindly relax, and read the other posts to see if your complaint has been addressed, gentle citizen.

[Skylarr]

"a long tom shell is usually enough to destroy most medium mechs outright, and will knock even an Atlas off it's feet, with critical damage."

Damage 25/15/5

This is AOE damage so it would be broken into 5 point clusters.

Bishop Steiner, on 28 July 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

odd...looks like I mounted 15 shots in the magazine. Which is easily crew served by the Hunchback point defense mech. So... next poorly thought out argument?

Are you say the Hunchback will stand behind the Arty Mech and load the gun?

Bishop Steiner, on 27 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Hunchback added for close weapons support, and to use it's hands to aid in reloading the TARANIS magazines when they run dry.

Mech hand would not be able to do this. It takes a Tech crew to open a Mech's back and reload a Magazine.

Edited by Skylarr, 29 July 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Skylarr, on 29 July 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

"a long tom shell is usually enough to destroy most medium mechs outright, and will knock even an Atlas off it's feet, with critical damage."

Damage 25/15/5

This is AOE damage so it would be broken into 5 point clusters.



Are you say the Hunchback will stand behind the Arty Mech and load the gun?



Mech hand would not be able to do this. It takes a Tech crew to open a Mech's back and reload a Magazine.

onlyif there is anything to open. Since the design uses an open well, like on an assault rifle or pistol, all that is needed is something that can slap a fresh magazine home, and possibly pull a large lever. sINCE A BATTLEMECH HAND CAN BE USED TO GENTLY PICK UP A HUMAN WITHOUT CRUSHING THEM, THEY ARE MORE THAN UP FOR THIS TASK. (dang it, hit the caps lock again.
)

Also, spread damage is for indirect fire, using an artillery piece for point blank direct fire is not addressed, but since that was a "fluff" piece, does it matter?

[Skylarr]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 July 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

onlyif there is anything to open. Since the design uses an open well, like on an assault rifle or pistol, all that is needed is something that can slap a fresh magazine home, and possibly pull a large lever. sINCE A BATTLEMECH HAND CAN BE USED TO GENTLY PICK UP A HUMAN WITHOUT CRUSHING THEM, THEY ARE MORE THAN UP FOR THIS TASK. (dang it, hit the caps lock again.
)

BattleMech Ammo is not clip fed. It has ammo bins inside the Mech. A round , or salvo, is moved from the ammo bin to the weapon via an ammo feed system.

Quote

Also, spread damage is for indirect fire, using an artillery piece for point blank direct fire is not addressed, but since that was a "fluff" piece, does it matter?

I am sure it listed somewere.

[Bishop Steiner]

Skylarr, on 29 July 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

BattleMech Ammo is not clip fed. It has ammo bins inside the Mech. A round , or salvo, is moved from the ammo bin to the weapon via an ammo feed system.


I am sure it listed somewere.

hmmm, I eagerly await your providing solid, undeniable canon articles to said effect. Otherwise... it's just your opinion.

And before you stick your foot any further in your mouth, I might suggest you check the "Classic Battletech TRO 3025: the Succession Wars" entries for both the Hatchetman and the Enforcer. It really helps to know your source material. (p.s. I do)

but to save you some time, an I quote: (taken from said TRO, pg 58, sub heading "capabilities", paragraph 4";
"To accommodate for this shortcoming, ENFORCERS use big, ten-round clips that are easily loaded into and ejected from the mech's back. When possible, units park a truck and crane system close to the Enforcers during battle to allow rapid reloading of the mech's autocannon".

So of course, a fully manipulatable hand actuator is incapable of doing what a crane can.

So sir, instead of guessing and stating "I'm sure it's listed SOMEWHERE", I cite page and paragraph. I would recommend you stop before you look any more foolish?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 July 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[Skylarr]

Quote

Direct-fire ARTILLERY


Flight Times: As noted on the Indirect Artillery Flight Times Table (see p. 181), any direct-fire artillery attack lands in the same turn it is made.

Direct Fire
To make a direct artillery attack, the artillery unit must have line of sight to the target hex, and the target hex must be no further than seventeen hexes away. Do not modify the to-hit number for range, target movement, the terrain of the target hex or an immobile target. The base to-hit number is modified normally for the attacker’s movement and for firing through (not into) woods and for other terrain features.

A direct-fire artillery attack is made during the Weapon Attack Phase and has no time in flight.

If the attack hits the target hex, the shell/missile inflicts standard artillery damage, including damage to adjacent hexes, as well as any other effects, if applicable. If the round misses its target, it scatters as described in Targeting (see p. 180), but only 1D6 is rolled to determine distance; i.e. the MoF is not applied.

Minimum Range: When making a direct-fire artillery attack, if the target is within six hexes of the attacking unit, the attack cannot be made (this minimum range is ignored when making Pointblank Attacks; at right).

Pointblank Attacks
Only hidden onboard artillery units that have not previously fired or moved in a scenario can make pointblank artillery attacks. The artillery unit makes its pointblank shot from hiding as described on page 259 of Total Warfare, with the following additional rules.

Only high-explosive rounds can be used in a pointblank attack, and the attack must be aimed at the hex the target unit occupies; it cannot be aimed behind the target unit or at any other hex within the attacking unit’s LOS.

If the attack hits, it is treated as a hit from a direct-fire ballistic weapon, resolved against the unit’s facing relative to the attacking unit. An additional 5 points of artillery damage applies to all other units in the target’s hex (treat as an area-effect weapon if these other units include infantry).

If the to-hit roll fails, the round scatters. Re-roll the scatter direction if the result calls for the attack to scatter toward the attacking unit or the two hexes adjacent to the attacking unit.


Found it in Tactical Operations page 185

Edited by Skylarr, 30 July 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

"If the attack hits, it is treated as a hit from a direct-fire ballistic weapon, resolved against the unit’s facing relative to the attacking unit. An additional 5 points of artillery damage applies to all other units in the target’s hex (treat as an area-effect weapon if these other units include infantry)."

refresh my memory... how is damage applied from a direct fire ballistic weapon? (Hint... ac/20s and Gauss Rifles are "direct fire ballistic weapons". Also note specific wording "direct fire BALLISTIC" vs "Direct Fire ARTILLERY) Do they distribute their damage in 5 pt clusters?