101 replies to this topic

[Haipyng]

Orion_, on 17 May 2023 - 02:35 AM, said:

Completely missed this earlier. Where in the world was this poll that the MAJORITY of players cheat?

As I said elsewhere its an informal poll, not MWO specific, not online specific. It just struck me that such a high percentage of players would want to cheat when the doubters keep saying it doesn't happen in MWO. I can't fathom the purpose to it. I also linked to a Guardian article as to why people cheat for insight. There is plenty of information about the prevalence of it occurring in news articles all over the web, why would it not in MWO?

Orion_, on 17 May 2023 - 02:35 AM, said:

Out of curiosity I looked up this post that keeps getting referenced. Are yall really this hot and heavy over a single post from multiple years ago that has 3 comments on it? I have to admit that Im baffled there isn't any AC in the game at all (didn't know that until this post but it explains why sound mods are possible to use) but what in the world is going on in your matches that makes you think droves of amateur hackers are developing their cheats to play against you?

Edit - I should add that I do agree that some level of AC should be in literally any and all multiplayer games. That said, the possibility of it ever being implemented in a 10 year old game with a negligible player base is about 0, which is why my comments are 'off topic'; because the topic is next to pointless.

There are also plenty of paid developed ones that can be bought, besides the post for making your own. Most forums for developing these things are private for obvious reasons. I never said it was droves. I don't think that at all, as I have said multiple times elsewhere in this thread. You are doing a lot of projecting.

I can't think of a single contemporary multiplayer title with a PVP component I have picked up recently that hasn't had an Anti-Cheat engine with it. I already have multiple anti-cheat engines installed as a result, just none have been configured to work with MWO. When you have something like Easy Anti-Cheat (and I am not advocating for any engine in particular) it isn't multiple copies that get installed for each game, It only installs once on the first game that has it. All others just make use of the engine if it is already there.

I agree it may very well not go anywhere. It is an old game, but PGI does surprise us sometimes. Looking at the Steam stats the player base as been remarkably consistent in the last 5 years, if low. Those are people that are big fans of the IP and they stick with it. MWO is not a bad game or it would never have gone on for 12 years. PGIs heavy focus on being an E-Sports game never took off. Players didn't seem to like any version of faction warfare and as it's been born out, there was competitive cheating. There went the game's credibility for e-sports, but I don't think its why the e-sports aspect never took off.

Simply put, cheats in MWO were previously by design or accident swept quietly under the rug. The forums quietly scrubbed of any mention of the word which is exactly the opposite of the rest of the gaming world. Its a wise policy to ban accusations, advertising cheats, etc, but making like they don't exist in the game is silly and a bit insulting. It simply plays right into cheaters hands and I am sure some white knighters and gas-lighters on the subject are more concerned that PGI might actually do something about it if there was enough interest. I'm not a developer, I don't know what it takes to add anti-cheat engine hooks into the game or how much configuration it takes. MWO could do with a boost of credibility and it would be great to have an A/C engine in place to be able to point to with a wall of shame and respond to the next accusation of cheating with. "Maybe, but..." and leave it at that. It shows they take it seriously at least and it is vast improvement over the wall of silence.

You may think the topic is pointless. Others don't, that is the way the world works. All of your comments deemed off topic were the direct result of a thinly veiled personal attack on the player, alluding to the common phrase and counter argument "git gud", and not the actual topic of the post. It was off topic and I am sure just meant to be insulting. For a fellow that finds it pointless, you do spend a great deal of time on it.

Edited by Haipyng, 17 May 2023 - 07:51 AM.

[LordNothing]

the whole g0at vs tarkov shenanegans from a couple month ago were pretty interesting.

especially when the cheat developers hacked his computer and cooked his ssds.

i figure cheaters have enough money to buy skill, re-purchase content when they get banned and buy replacement hardware when they do something the cheat devs don't like. not to mention willfully giving known hackers unfettered access to their pc. i mean thats money you could have used to enhance your game with booze or weed without the gaping security hole.

and of course this is a thing you often find talked about at game-dev conferences. they wouldn't waste time on it if it wasn't happening.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 May 2023 - 06:19 PM.

[LordNothing]

Orion_, on 17 May 2023 - 04:49 AM, said:

BRUH. I thought it was for THIS game. People mod Fallout and Skyrim therefore nearly 60% of all gamers ever are hackers....



Life goals. Honestly impressed to find out something can be made to target specific components, idk why Id just assume it was for CT or something. As much as I hate to agree, an entire team is next to impossible unless they're all AFK and even then it would be wild.

mathematically its possible to put the round on any hitbox with perfect accuracy. its hit detection in reverse more or less (significantly easier as you are just putting the center of the hitbox into screen space and chasing the point). i wouldn't doubt the cheat software puts that at a premium tier. of course perfect accuracy is easy to detect and wouldn't survive any serious data analysis. you could inject random noise into it but it turns out that is also easy to detect (this is how people have been able to determine minecraft seeds from screenshots or find hidden bases in anarchy).

i like to look people up on jarls and see how old their accounts are if they are performing too well. of course it might just be a high level player doing a stats scrub trying to rank. so its nothing definitive. but it does seem fishy.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 May 2023 - 06:40 PM.

[Tromoskyon Rex]

LordNothing, on 17 May 2023 - 06:32 PM, said:

(this is how people have been able to determine minecraft seeds from screenshots or find hidden bases in anarchy).

*4Chan hunting Shia LeBeouf intensifies*

LordNothing, on 17 May 2023 - 06:32 PM, said:

i like to look people up on jarls and see how old their accounts are if they are performing too well. of course it might just be a high level player doing a stats scrub trying to rank. so its nothing definitive. but it does seem fishy.

Name changes can also make an account look new on Jarls. On the MWO leaderboards it will pull them up by their old username when searching the new one if you go back to previous seasons though.

IE Orion_ will pull up Galm Razgriz if you go back to season 72 iirc.

[Haipyng]

LordNothing, on 17 May 2023 - 06:08 PM, said:

the whole g0at vs tarkov shenanegans from a couple month ago were pretty interesting.

especially when the cheat developers hacked his computer and cooked his ssds.

i figure cheaters have enough money to buy skill, re-purchase content when they get banned and buy replacement hardware when they do something the cheat devs don't like. not to mention willfully giving known hackers unfettered access to their pc. i mean thats money you could have used to enhance your game with booze or weed without the gaping security hole.

and of course this is a thing you often find talked about at game-dev conferences. they wouldn't waste time on it if it wasn't happening.

Great point, who the heck knows what you are getting when you install a cheat. If the cheat makers have so little sense of ethics that they are willing to stoop to cheating in a game, who knows what else they are putting in there. The few Instances we know of in MWO have run along units or known friends. Just because you got it from a friend doesn't mean it is safe.

Edited by Haipyng, 18 May 2023 - 04:57 AM.

[Haipyng]

PocketYoda, on 17 May 2023 - 04:24 AM, said:

I had a match a year or so ago where nearly the whole team was headshotted.. from crazy areas as well. We couldn't report them either as they logged out and for some reason the report wont work if the player is gone.. The stuff i've seen...

I didn't know the report wouldn't work if they dropped. That is a painfully obvious version of cheating. I've never seen that level.

[PocketYoda]

Haipyng, on 18 May 2023 - 04:54 AM, said:

I didn't know the report wouldn't work if they dropped. That is a painfully obvious version of cheating. I've never seen that level.

It doesn't happen very often thank god.. We had groups of idiots dropping in Kodiaks with 4x ac20s killing teammates at drop in for a while as well for ages one Christmas..

[-XenoBeast-]

I wish there was an anti cheat system for this game, because lots of people accuse tier 1 players being "cheaters" for having actual aim or even for a lucky shot...
I'm being accused of cheating on every game by [Redacted] because he has a video "proving it", I saw that video and does not prove anything, every skilled player can do that with his aim.
If anyone see that video, just keep in mind the arms are unlocked and when using jump jets the aim got screwed up few times when firing the arm mounted ER large lasers, I encourage everyone to prove it on an Arctic Cheetah A, set of 8, with 2 arm mounted ERLL.
It's been a month of false accusations by this guy and it's ruining my gaming experience.
Honestly, I find ridiculous the people who use cheats in any game, I personally would buy a pack including anti-cheat system for sure, just to have fun like I had before.

Edited by GM Patience, 08 August 2023 - 12:36 PM.
name and shame

[Meep Meep]

I got accused of hax when I headshot two mechs in a row that were death staring at me between alphas. So I just let them fire and calmly headshot them. Mucho salt because both were fresh assaults.

But I agree. An anti cheat system would be welcome because there is cheating. I suspect the one that allows for targeting of components is the most popular because I have had a large spike recently in getting insta legged as soon as exposing at full masc zag tilt at pretty much any range. I keep a list of them and its the same handful of players so I spectate them and record when in a match if possible. No name and shame but 99% of them are faceless alts with no unit or forum history and insanely good jarls.

[Ihlrath]

the check engine light, on 01 August 2023 - 09:00 AM, said:

"Cheating is a very minor problem in MWO, practiced only by a minority."

Okay. How minor? A minority? So you have numbers.

Every time I hear it's not a big deal I feel obliged to ask them to quantify "big".

Exactly this.

For those asking 'what online poll' there are multiple. It takes four seconds to google it and those saying 'it's not a big deal', to me are probably the ones cheating. TTB, Sean Lang, Scout Derek and other streamers have ALL put up videos in recent months of what they suspect to be aimboting.

Most online studies (again you can look these up in 4 seconds) in recent years have shown on average about 1/3 of FPS PVP gamers use a cheat. I.E. Wall hacks (the ability to see and track enemies through objects), Aimbots/Aim Assist, switch laggers (ever seen someone just lagging around and rubber banding but seemingly able to take you apart with no issue?) and those are just the most popular three.

Do I think cheating in MWO is to that extent? I'm not sure, up until recently I would have said no but the impossibly fast skill increase of the average player just seeming to pop up over night about two months ago makes me question things. The fact that we can't get any answers other then 'lulz git gud nub' is frustrating as this can affect people's enjoyment of the game.

To say there is no cheating going on in MWO is either naïve or purposeful dishonesty, which my sense of things is generally the second. As Meep stated earlier there's just impossible shots with not even a slight wavering happening far, far too often. There's also a ridiculous amount of people that just seem to know where you are no matter what at any given moment, even in a stealth mech behind cover.

Anti-Cheat software is easy to get their hands on and easy to implement and not that expensive. My only guess on why they don't implement it is because PGI doesn't want to lose the cheaters and the possibly revenue stream they represent, which sucks for the rest of us.

It is what it is.

[Haipyng]

-XenoBeast-, on 01 August 2023 - 03:22 AM, said:

I wish there was an anti cheat system for this game, because lots of people accuse tier 1 players being "cheaters" for having actual aim or even for a lucky shot...
I'm being accused of cheating on every game by [Redacted] because he has a video "proving it", I saw that video and does not prove anything, every skilled player can do that with his aim.
If anyone see that video, just keep in mind the arms are unlocked and when using jump jets the aim got screwed up few times when firing the arm mounted ER large lasers, I encourage everyone to prove it on an Arctic Cheetah A, set of 8, with 2 arm mounted ERLL.
It's been a month of false accusations by this guy and it's ruining my gaming experience.
Honestly, I find ridiculous the people who use cheats in any game, I personally would buy a pack including anti-cheat system for sure, just to have fun like I had before.

It's part of my point about an Anti-Cheat system. If there is a decent one and PGI is active in policing it, it undercuts false or annoying cheat accusations. The problem is we do have cheaters in the game, people are seeing it and start assuming everyone is cheating and verbalizing it. Cheating just begets cheating too. The more you ignore it the worse it gets, because by that point...why not.

Realistically, people playing any modern multiplayer likely already have an Anti-Cheat (or multiple) installed on their system. MWO needs to be configured to use it and then just be active in policing it.

[LordNothing]

with the way some of the players aim, maybe pgi would be better off including their own aim bot, for players in lower tiers. better that than running software that can back door their system, steal your personal data, wipe your drives remotely, hack the firmware so they never work again and charge you a subscription for their trouble. cheaters are pretty much installing a rootkit.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 August 2023 - 01:18 PM.

[Ihlrath]

LordNothing, on 01 August 2023 - 01:08 PM, said:

with the way some of the players aim, maybe pgi would be better off including their own aim bot, for players in lower tiers. better that than running software that can back door their system, steal your personal data, wipe your drives remotely, hack the firmware so they never work again and charge you a subscription for their trouble. cheaters are pretty much installing a rootkit.

Well, someone that cheats is a craptastic person on a general level so I'm not upset they're stupid enough to download that crap. Hopefully if it trashes their systems they'll learn a lesson... buuuuut we circle back to the stupid part and well... probably not.

[Tromoskyon Rex]

Had a funny moment thinking about this thread the other day. Gundam Battle Operation 2, a game with EAC, has people using bosses from PVE game modes in PVP, unlimited ammo, no cooldown, and invincibility. The game has barely been on PC 2 months and all of that was in the game within the first 2 weeks.

Still think it would be great if there was an AC in the game, but thought it was funny how fast that happened.

[Star Lit Night]

LordNothing, on 01 August 2023 - 01:08 PM, said:

with the way some of the players aim, maybe pgi would be better off including their own aim bot, for players in lower tiers. better that than running software that can back door their system, steal your personal data, wipe your drives remotely, hack the firmware so they never work again and charge you a subscription for their trouble. cheaters are pretty much installing a rootkit.

I'd rather let cheaters cheat than install malware.

[LordNothing]

Star Lit Night, on 02 August 2023 - 05:10 PM, said:

I'd rather let cheaters cheat than install malware.

i watched a gamedev conference on the subject and it turns out that most of the people using cheat software are either super-casuals, people playing with controllers or joysticks at a disadvantage to mouse users, or sometimes people with disabilities. mw5 comes stock with an aimbot, and a lot of other games are also including one.

i think by not having one, you shut out a lot of players who are unable to enjoy the game. especially when you have a lot of e-sports skill warriors who insist that everyone play at their level. obviously you dont want to lose that demographic, since its one of the few we have. cant have a game without players. but if you have an aimbot available to players in t4,5, you protect the skill game at higher tiers, while opening the game to a more general audience.

id also have the aimbot have a slower tracking and narrower track radius in t4 than it does in t5, and you would have it on a toggle or push to use, so that they have the option to aim manually. ultimately if you bubble up to t3, you cant use it anymore, so it helps to wean players off of it as their skill progresses.

anyway think of it as an accessibility feature.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 August 2023 - 05:52 PM.

[LordNothing]

the check engine light, on 02 August 2023 - 05:50 PM, said:

dude there are entire groups of players in MWO who legit want to drive out anyone under 95 percentile you think this is going to find purchase

and i very much doubt any of them are in t4. this will not even effect them. they can outshoot any aimbot in existance, and they can make snap judgements on where to shoot. its not even in the same ballpark. remember these are the same people who want to see all guided weapons removed from the game. being part of the game you can switch it off in comp modes and maybe fp.

if you bring in casual players there is a chance that some of them will get gud, bubble up out of t4 and join the skillwarrior crowd, but you will need to consign hordes to t5 just to find them. if it brings players to the game that is a good thing. more players enables more modes, enables more funding, enables better match making. if the bad side of that is that some t5 gets slightly higher scores, then who cares?

Edited by LordNothing, 02 August 2023 - 06:02 PM.

[LordNothing]

the check engine light, on 02 August 2023 - 05:56 PM, said:

They. Don't. Care.

I am not kidding. This is THEIR game how dare you show up. We're not talking "I don't want to see them in matches", we're talking hard ******* gatekeeping.

i cant imagine that they are a huge source of funding. pgi is going to go where the money is.

[Leadpaintchips]

Razgriz_, on 02 August 2023 - 02:06 AM, said:

Had a funny moment thinking about this thread the other day. Gundam Battle Operation 2, a game with EAC, has people using bosses from PVE game modes in PVP, unlimited ammo, no cooldown, and invincibility. The game has barely been on PC 2 months and all of that was in the game within the first 2 weeks.

Still think it would be great if there was an AC in the game, but thought it was funny how fast that happened.

TBH that's the MO for every game that I've played that uses EAC. The running joke is that the name isn't on the difficulty to implement it, it's a comment on how difficult it is to bypass. It's a bad anti-cheat program that raises more false positives then catches blatant abusers.

[LordNothing]

false positives are the worst. there are still entire game companies i refuse to touch because they refuse to reverse false bans and undelete characters. hey if im gonna play a game that feels like a job, i need assurances that my stuff is going to be there next time i play.