121 replies to this topic

[Haipyng]

Maybe a special Mech Pack? Even just a year trial. Easy Anti-Cheat, BattlEye, or something?

We "know" cheats don't officially exist for MWO, and PGI has the potent manually-look-at-the-logs-on-report system running if they did, which of course they don't. Yes, the mechanics of the game don't lend itself well to cheating and the millions of others perfect reasons why cheating doesn't exist in MWO.

However, there are discussions in hacking forums stating that MWO is the perfect game to learn to make hacks on as it has no anti-cheat system, not that they made any...there are not any of course! Impossible to do, but that is the buzz.

Maybe at least give one a try and sell a pack to fund it. Kickstart it. Whatever it takes, then we can stop thinking every next to impossible 3 shots in a row on one component might have been a cheat, or knowing right where you are going to pop up in the middle of nowhere, without a UAV in sight, isn't a wall hack but rather ESP.

Edited by Haipyng, 13 May 2023 - 06:16 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Being as old and small as it is, I wouldn't expect any movement in this area on this game beyond what tools PGI has today.

[Haipyng]

TheCaptainJZ, on 13 May 2023 - 06:19 AM, said:

Being as old and small as it is, I wouldn't expect any movement in this area on this game beyond what tools PGI has today.

No, I don't. It's an old ask, but with all the new Mech Packs, anything that improves the state of the game would be wonderful.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

those "cheats" in mwo are something else, entirely, for the most part.

ask yourself: what -and I know it's a thought unimaginable- if you weren't cheated?

[Widowmaker1981]

It only takes a few minutes on google to know that they do, in fact, exist - i dont know how prevalent their use is and, to be honest, it doesnt 'feel' like they are very prevalent at all.

But yes, id like some kind of effective anti cheat too, because i hate the fact that my mind goes to "Is that guy using ESP?" when i take an alpha instantly on peeking a new corner. 99% of the time, its probably a UAV i missed, Seismic or just me being predictable, but theres always that.. doubt, and i dont like it.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 13 May 2023 - 07:11 AM.

[Haipyng]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 13 May 2023 - 06:56 AM, said:

those "cheats" in mwo are something else, entirely, for the most part.

ask yourself: what -and I know it's a thought unimaginable- if you weren't cheated?

I'll take this opportunity to say to all of the folks that will come out supporting the idea that they don't exist, you do you, boo. I am sure they don't. MWO is the only game online without them of course.

Why white knight against asking for an anti-cheat system anyway? Does that affect your game play somehow?

I take my lumps quietly, I may feel like something was off in a match, but I don't call people out for it. There is always a chance they got that lucky repeatedly. The doubt and gaslighting really does suck sometimes and having an active system at least makes it harder to do and is a comfort. Makes it much easier to appreciate someone's great skill.

Edited by Haipyng, 13 May 2023 - 07:28 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

ofc they exist. but were you a victim of a cheat?
MOST likely not.

now, you can improve your play by looking for what you did wrong or somebody else did right
-or you can blame it on cheats who're rarer than unicorns.

[Haipyng]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 May 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

It only takes a few minutes on google to know that they do, in fact, exist - i dont know how prevalent their use is and, to be honest, it doesnt 'feel' like they are very prevalent at all.

The Mechanics of MWO don't lend themselves to cheats well. The team nature, the relatively slow movement, the lack of a one shot one kill mechanic make it hard to spot, along with very small detection systems (UAV) is enough to doubt what your feeling, but when you have played over a decade you get a good sense of what should be possible and what shouldn't be.

I truly admire skill in MWO. Its really is a thinking man's shooter, but with the influx of new names I hate wondering at these very frequent displays of super skill. Anti-cheat goes a long way to calming doubts.

[BLACKR0SE]

I don't think anyone would cheat in such an old game, and it would be pointless anyway. Everything is so clear and everyone's movements are visible, making it very difficult to hide such a thing. Plus, the forum is always active.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 07:36 AM, said:

Anti-cheat goes a long way to calming doubts.

I guess this is the part where people's opinions will vary the most:

• What causes more trouble in "your" mind? The thought of some random player potentially cheating in something as irrelevant as a computer game - particularly one as old and niche like MW:O - or the idea of installing what these days amounts to being a root kit onto your computer and that has demonstrably already been used in malware attacks against computers!?
  
• How much faith do you want to put into such anti-cheat software pieces in general? Even games with the utmost invasive types of anti-cheat modules do still see reasonably large numbers of (suspected and demonstrated) cheaters. The same sites you reference as spelling out that MW:O is a good starting place because of the lack of an active anti-cheat will also inform you that the anti-cheat modules of are in more than just "a few" cases the main basis for how the advanced cheats are actually able to cheat in games (or do worse things) in the first place.
  
• Are you personally willing to put up with the kind of false positives that such systems - particularly the ones you referenced by name - have created?

I cannot and will not try to convince you one way or another but I certainly will tell you that "calming doubts" by the mere existance of an anti-cheat solution is a dangerous delusion you'll have to willfully engange in.

[Haipyng]

Der Geisterbaer, on 13 May 2023 - 08:15 AM, said:

• What causes more trouble in "your" mind? The thought of some random player potentially cheating in something as irrelevant as a computer game - particularly one as old and niche like MW:O - or the idea of installing what these days amounts to being a root kit onto your computer and that has demonstrably already been used in malware attacks against computers!?

The vast majority of online games today use anti-cheat systems. If your purpose is to avoid exploits today, you are better off running linux and not using any games at all. People that are playing games are looking for entertainment and those playing PVP games are looking to challenge themselves against other players. That challenge is totally negated when someone is cheating for some advantage. I don't understand why you would want to ruin others enjoyment by cheating, perhaps a need to make yourself feel better about yourself, but it does happen frequently. I find it is often related to trolling behavior.

Der Geisterbaer, on 13 May 2023 - 08:15 AM, said:

• How much faith do you want to put into such anti-cheat software pieces in general? Even games with the utmost invasive types of anti-cheat modules do still see reasonably large numbers of (suspected and demonstrated) cheaters. The same sites you reference as spelling out that MW:O is a good starting place because of the lack of an active anti-cheat will also inform you that the anti-cheat modules of are in more than just "a few" cases the main basis for how the advanced cheats are actually able to cheat in games (or do worse things) in the first place.
  
• Are you personally willing to put up with the kind of false positives that such systems - particularly the ones you referenced by name - have created?

I have yet to be flagged by any cheat system falsely or otherwise. I don't believe in cheating and so I can't relate to the experience and none of the people I generally play with have ever been flagged either. They certainly seem to work. A quick search online suggests that it happened, but the same argument applies to that as others have claimed here applies in reverse. If it does happen, it doesn't happen much.

How it is applied is not a function of the anti-cheat, but the developer. It's certainly a lot more accurate than reporting the player for a manual review of the logs which may well not show much from the client side.

[ThreeStooges]

If you have to cheat in this game your build really sucks. With the high power creep in the game almost any mech can be two-shot when facing the most meta builds out there. Be your own anti cheater by recording your matches and play the footage in slow motion or frame by frame then send the data of "the cheater" to mwo support to get "the cheater" banned.

Or play some thing else. I've got a very old laptop with 98se on 32bit for retro gaming 1989-2004 pc games. Is it hacked and full of viruses? Possibly but it's a throw away machine with only old games on it.

[SafeScanner]

How would you even know they are cheating? gotta be careful your not screaming Cheat to a person who just outplayed you

[Der Geisterbaer]

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

The vast majority of online games today use anti-cheat systems.

And still see lots of cheaters anyways. But what ...

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

If your purpose is to avoid exploits today, you are better off running linux and not using any games at all.

... exactly is the purpose of this part of your response with regards to what you quoted me on?
And how ...

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

People that are playing games are looking for entertainment and those playing PVP games are looking to challenge themselves against other players. That challenge is totally negated when someone is cheating for some advantage. I don't understand why you would want to ruin others enjoyment by cheating, perhaps a need to make yourself feel better about yourself, but it does happen frequently. I find it is often related to trolling behavior.

... does this inform on anything beyond the fact that you only remotely address the first part of the dilemma I presented while ignoring the other and then choosing terminology that heavily implies that "I" as a person would want to ruin other player's enjoyment by cheating; thereby making a serious strawman argument that you even take as far as making the underhanded accusation of me trolling.

If your original take wasn't already a "good" indicator of how very much you are into that delusion that I mentioned I'm now pretty sure that you are indeed willfully engaging in it and putting as many blinders on as you can find

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

.
I have yet to be flagged by any cheat system falsely or otherwise.

And just because you haven't experienced a false positive and or technical problems with such systems they don't exist?
More putting on blinders I guess.

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

I don't believe in cheating and so I can't relate to the experience

Let's just point out the obvious: That's a non-sequitur.

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

and none of the people I generally play with have ever been flagged either.

Good for you I guess.

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

They certainly seem to work.

Again those blinders: They don't seem to work beyond the most superficial inspection.

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

A quick search online suggests that it happened, but the same argument applies to that as others have claimed here applies in reverse. If it does happen, it doesn't happen much.

So this brings us back to the original dilemmas I tried to point out to you. It's obvious by now that you are willing to engage in the delusion of safety that doesn't exist and simply ignore everything that doesn't conform to your understanding and personal priorities.

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

How it is applied is not a function of the anti-cheat, but the developer.

Let's ignore the fact that for the solutions you named just with any other software as a service it boils down to cost to implement and maintain and tell it how it is in most cases: Minimum solution at minimum cost with maximum automation and the least amount of player facing support ... after all: We're talking a F2P game here.

Haipyng, on 13 May 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

It's certainly a lot more accurate than reporting the player for a manual review of the logs which may well not show much from the client side.

You "hope" that it is more accurate and that's about it. How did you put it again? "Calming doubts" ~laugh~

[Widowmaker1981]

Der Geisterbaer, on 13 May 2023 - 09:30 AM, said:

...

It seems that your opinion is that games should just effectively 'allow' cheating - at least, not take steps to make it harder to do - because its just a game and who cares.. is that about right?

Because i kinda care. Ive seen games i like ruined by people using hacks more and more blatantly over time because it just wasnt prevented. That makes the legit gamers leave (most people who enjoy PvP are competitive and competitive people dont like losing unfairly, even if it is 'just a game'), and then the cheaters leave because there is no fun cheating against other cheaters, and the game dies. I dont really see this happening here, mainly due to the older playerbase, but..

The problem for me is that what is (in my opinion anyway) by far the most powerful 'hack' is the one that displays all enemy mechs on your HUD at all times, regardless of anything. Unlike an aimbot, Its very difficult to spot that someone is using it while spectating unless they are blatant about it, so there isnt much risk of being reported and therefore very little risk in using it, since thats the only way PGI would even investigate someone. But the advantage it would give is absurdly strong, obviously.

I would personally like to see some kind of anti cheat that can spot at least the existing 'hacks' inserted without announcement, followed by permabanning every account using one. I honestly dont think its many people at all, but i know there must be some, just based on human nature.

I dont expect that to happen though, to be fair, and im not about to throw my toys out of the pram about it, so meh i guess.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

If they did this, say they chose Battleye (kernel level anticheat), every Linux player gets screwed.

[Bud Crue]

First off, this discussion is a violation of the COC and so the mods will remove it come Monday.

More to the point however: Why bother with anti-cheat?

Seriously, there may very well be a handful of cheaters playing these days (I certainly think there are at least a few that I could name). Eventually they will get reported enough and PGI will investigate and/or ban them. It happens, and a couple of notable examples were made recently. But even if PGI paid no attention at all to this issue, the vast majority of us are so bad at this game that if someone were cheating we likely wouldn't notice it (because we get killed stupidly on a regular basis anyway, or we are the type of person that accuses everybody of cheating already).

If the comp folks want to get bent out of shape because someone is cheating in a tourney with actual prizes at stake, fine, I can see where such folks might think it reasonable to want what little resources this game has available to put some sort of anti-cheat in place, but for the rest of us? We won't notice 99% of the time if someone is cheating or not.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 May 2023 - 10:15 AM, said:

It seems that your opinion is that games should just effectively 'allow' cheating - at least, not take steps to make it harder to do - because its just a game and who cares.. is that about right?

It seems that your reading comprehension has lead you to an assumption about my opinion that I didn't state anywhere even remotely. So ...

Widowmaker1981, on 13 May 2023 - 10:15 AM, said:

Because i kinda care.

... you can care as much as you like and proceed with making assumptions about me and presenting more fallacious reasoning if that makes you feel better.

Widowmaker1981, on 13 May 2023 - 10:15 AM, said:

Ive seen games i like ruined by people using hacks more and more blatantly over time because it just wasnt prevented. That makes the legit gamers leave (most people who enjoy PvP are competitive and competitive people dont like losing unfairly, even if it is 'just a game'), and then the cheaters leave because there is no fun cheating against other cheaters, and the game dies. I dont really see this happening here, mainly due to the older playerbase, but..

So thanks for sharing your personal experiences that - by your own words - don't apply here and the theory behind as to why this is so.

[Haipyng]

Der Geisterbaer, on 13 May 2023 - 09:30 AM, said:

You "hope" that it is more accurate and that's about it. How did you put it again? "Calming doubts" ~laugh~

If you are not going to listen and dismiss any counter, don't ask. There are hundreds of thousands of players using games with anti cheat and they run just fine. If they, didn't we wouldn't have anti cheat engines.

[Haipyng]

Bud Crue, on 13 May 2023 - 11:24 AM, said:

First off, this discussion is a violation of the COC and so the mods will remove it come Monday.

Indeed, the COC lists:

• Discussing the use of hacks, scripts, or cheats.
  
• Misrepresenting your use of hacks, scripts, or cheats.
  
• Accusing other players of using hacks, scripts, or cheats.

I am asking for an anti-cheat system, not discussing cheats, their use, or accusing anyone that they use them. No one else in the thread has yet either, merely if anti-cheat systems work, don't work, and if they are needed at this stage of the game's life.

In the past there was heavier handed moderation happening where even the whisper of the word cheat was swiftly deleted. That's fine, it is their sandbox after all, but regardless the issue remains.