111 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

SafeScanner, on 20 May 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

true i don't own one but i hope they keep buff/nerfing premiums mechs using "World of tanks" and an example as how bad its gotten

The wot example is more about 'how good are our players cognitive abilities on making informed purchases' and less about bait and switch. There are some very good premium tanks some of the best in the game that in some cases have only ever been given buffs but there are also a ton of complete trash they sell for the same price. Buying premium vehicles in wot is very much caveat emptor.

[PsionicMantis]

I dont think I've seen any builds for the scattershot other than ones using 3 mrm20, or the 3 lb2x. i have seen like 1 or 2 dual lb5x with srms.

I feel like the lb2x nerf is justified as the spread increase was very minimal compared to the usable range originally, so you ended up with the 3 lb2x long ranged sandblasters. Not sure how I feel about everything else though.

[Heavy Money]

PsionicMantis, on 20 May 2023 - 03:06 PM, said:

I dont think I've seen any builds for the scattershot other than ones using 3 mrm20, or the 3 lb2x. i have seen like 1 or 2 dual lb5x with srms.

I feel like the lb2x nerf is justified as the spread increase was very minimal compared to the usable range originally, so you ended up with the 3 lb2x long ranged sandblasters. Not sure how I feel about everything else though.

The super builds are 3MRM20 and 3LBX2+4 or 5 SRM2's. Especially the second build is a huge problem.

[Scout Derek]

Meep Meep, on 19 May 2023 - 09:56 PM, said:

So we gonna get a refund option? Because without one there will be ZERO chance I will buy into another legendary mech only to have it nerfed bait and switch style later. C'mon this is pure cash shop level ********..

Nah, if you thought you were gunna keep your powercreeped legend mech think again ahahaha.

[Meep Meep]

Scout Derek, on 20 May 2023 - 03:39 PM, said:

Nah, if you thought you were gunna keep your powercreeped legend mech think again ahahaha.

I've played it like a handful of times and it was only $15 which I might spend on a whim at anytime. This is about ethics not my feels or wallet. Well I suppose it might be about my wallet because pulling stunts like this might close it to a future legendary mech I might buy. Either way I will no longer impulse buy one and wait a few months to see of they pull another bait and switch.

[Navid A1]

Meep Meep, on 19 May 2023 - 09:56 PM, said:

So we gonna get a refund option? Because without one there will be ZERO chance I will buy into another legendary mech only to have it nerfed bait and switch style later. C'mon this is pure cash shop level ********..

PGI has nothing... NOTHING to do with any of these nerfs or buffs or quirk adjustments. These tweaks are by players who themselves have these mechs and play them.
There is no business model. There is no secret plan.

Regarding legendary mechs:

1- Juggernaut: Mech still needs some love and we're discussing to see how we can improve it. Players paid for it to perform, but it is not performing on the level we would like.


2- Moonwalker: The absolute god level mech in the entire game by a wide margin. Unfortunately we can't nerf it more. Stuff that it has are stuff that were promised on purchase. It will remain a god-Tier mech. So... enjoy your p2w


3- Dreadnaught: Extremely powerful mech. But does not invalidate an entire weight class of mechs. Delivers on expectations. A top performer, without crossing lines. Will remain as is (how does that fit into your "business model" theory?).


4- Scattershot:
- Promised to have an outlier quirk, got no Jump Jet cockpit shake (which will remain with the mech).
- Gifts you with 4 free slots in the arms that is occupied with lower arm actuator and hand actuator, allowing you to pack that extra heatsinks or equip that Endo or Ferro armor and still having slots for ammo. This feature was promised with the mech and is not going away. (Funnily enough same people who were complaining why this shadowhawk was given this free boost are now complaining about toning down quirks)
- Mech was promised to perform well. And it will always perform as a top medium mech, without invalidating the entire medium weight class. Besides that, quirk adjustment will happen as many times as needed to keep the mech a top performer without having it as a literal god and blatant p2w. The initial round of quirks on this mech was over-tuned since we were not sure about how this mech will do in game. If these nerfs turn out to be too much, some of it will come back and/or other stuff will be introduced.


5- Arges and Seraph: These two are taking a safe approach with quirks and are expected to perform well. They will most likely keep their quirks.





Granted, on the surface it seems like there is some conspiracy going on when you see adjustments a month after release (but paying attention to the entire legendary line up, you see that it's not the case).
We are asked to maintain balance and that's what we'll do to the best of our abilities.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 May 2023 - 04:50 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Meep Meep, on 19 May 2023 - 10:17 PM, said:

Its the very definition of bait and switch. People bought it because of the quirks not for any other reason. So to heavily nerf it after most had already bought in is a very cheap move. I'm not going to rage quit the game or anything but if there isn't a refund offered at least for those that bought in before the patch then the chances of buying into any new legendaries are slim to none. Maybe if they go forward from here with a no nerf policy and BETTER playtesting before the sale I might be swayed. But as it stands no go. Shame as this concept has a lot of potential to fund the game and keep it healthy.

You bought it because of the quirks, knowing that quirks are constantly being adjusted. That caught you by surprise somehow?

[Meep Meep]

Bulletsponge0, on 20 May 2023 - 05:45 PM, said:

You bought it because of the quirks, knowing that quirks are constantly being adjusted. That caught you by surprise somehow?

Traditionally items you can buy with cash only are considered off limits for change unless its a global change that effects all items. Otherwise what stops devs from selling op items to drive high sales only to nerf them after the sales peak?

[Bulletsponge0]

Meep Meep, on 20 May 2023 - 05:50 PM, said:

Traditionally items you can buy with cash only are considered off limits for change unless its a global change that effects all items. Otherwise what stops devs from selling op items to drive high sales only to nerf them after the sales peak?

Traditionally? In what game? Certainly not in MWO. PGI has a long history of releasing mechs, only to have to nerf them because they are overperforming

[Scout Derek]

Bulletsponge0, on 20 May 2023 - 05:57 PM, said:

Traditionally? In what game? Certainly not in MWO. PGI has a long history of releasing mechs, only to have to nerf them because they are overperforming

Daily reminder that 99.99% of games do this to their playerbase.

Lemme introduce you to like, 1000x different PVP games, most relatable one? War Thunder.

[Necroconvict]

SafeScanner, on 20 May 2023 - 01:17 PM, said:

not toooo bad could be worse i guess

thats bad spread, they're making stuff way less accurate.... Looks like almost all mechs are losing something (all that they are touching in this pass....) and adding velocity. Lose ** get velocity, lose ** get velocity... like a velocity fire sale... all velocity must go.

[The Brewer]

I picked up a Scattershot because it looked like it would be fun… and I actually thought initially it may end up being a little bad.

I was very wrong.

3LB2/4SRM4. I did ten matches with it, stopped playing it, and went straight on to advocate that the cooldown get detuned. What can be done in that mech, with that build, with the quirks it was released with, ended up being absolutely egregious. I don’t call things in this game OP lightly. Scattershot on release was OP.

Doing some quirk adjustments over time and bringing it to parity is something I have zero problems with.

[Rabid Imp]

The Brewer, on 20 May 2023 - 08:13 PM, said:

I picked up a Scattershot because it looked like it would be fun… and I actually thought initially it may end up being a little bad.

I was very wrong.

3LB2/4SRM4. I did ten matches with it, stopped playing it, and went straight on to advocate that the cooldown get detuned. What can be done in that mech, with that build, with the quirks it was released with, ended up being absolutely egregious. I don’t call things in this game OP lightly. Scattershot on release was OP.

Doing some quirk adjustments over time and bringing it to parity is something I have zero problems with.

I have NP tuning an OP mech, and I don't own a scattershot, but selling a mech and then nerfing next patch seems very sus; why did you release it in such a broken state EXCEPT to get pilfer cash from your player base? Again it was OP and needed a nerf, but you SOLD it to people that way.

Did you not play test it at all? Wow this thing is OP AF? Or did you know it was OP and relied on that for sales?

[The Brewer]

Rabid Imp, on 20 May 2023 - 08:41 PM, said:

I have NP tuning an OP mech, and I don't own a scattershot, but selling a mech and then nerfing next patch seems very sus; why did you release it in such a broken state EXCEPT to get pilfer cash from your player base? Again it was OP and needed a nerf, but you SOLD it to people that way.

Did you not play test it at all? Wow this thing is OP AF? Or did you know it was OP and relied on that for sales?

I’ll say this - I hope PGI is able to devote some resources to PTS again, so this sort of thing can indeed be tested live before release in the future. And like I said… looking at the quirks, I didn’t think it would even be beyond just okay, and kind of fun sometimes. Others have already said it - don’t buy for quirks. I’ll add this, don’t sell for quirks, either. Adjustments can and will be made for balance health.

[Heavy Money]

Rabid Imp, on 20 May 2023 - 08:41 PM, said:

I have NP tuning an OP mech, and I don't own a scattershot, but selling a mech and then nerfing next patch seems very sus; why did you release it in such a broken state EXCEPT to get pilfer cash from your player base? Again it was OP and needed a nerf, but you SOLD it to people that way.

Did you not play test it at all? Wow this thing is OP AF? Or did you know it was OP and relied on that for sales?

They don't really have playtesting. There is no test server. And there's not much that can be done even if there was. Its difficult to predict what loadouts could have issues. Its not really overpowered with its stock loadouts, or anything involving LBX10's or 5's.

Also, see what I said in my previous post: there was a confusion that caused it to get no JJ shake which is part of the problem.

We know what happened with it. This wasn't some planned scheme. Its a combination of difficulty to predict how something will work out and a misunderstanding.

[Widowmaker1981]

1) In literally every PvP game i have ever played, balance is understood to be an ongoing process. This game is no different and it shouldnt be, balancing over 1000 chassis is extraordinarily hard. Quirks have never been promised to be fixed / set in stone and buying a mech for real money based solely on its quirks is stupid.

2) Mechs being released more powerful than they should be and then scaled back has happened with such regularity it would be a little naive to believe this isnt intentional, at least to some extent. But, it is hard to predict exactly how a new chassis will perform in a live environment and releasing too weak also brings a lot of complaints, so i sort of understand the impulse to err on the side of too much power.

3) If you buy a mech based on OP quirks at release, unless youve been living under a rock, you KNOW they will get scaled back, so dont act surprised and complain. Just take the couple months of outlier performance and be happy.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Heavy Money, on 20 May 2023 - 09:14 PM, said:

They don't really have playtesting. There is no test server.

even back in the day when we had testservers.. it was more of an alibi; we tested stuff and voiced our opinions, only for Chris, Paul or whoever to just ignore said input and doing 'their' thing anyway.
the last? one concerning factionplay was an especially bitter pill to swallow; not only did they NOT focus on the important stuff, but just looked at their meaningless 2sentence-storytelling AND axed an ENTIRE gamemode on top, without telling anybody beforehand.

sorry for the rant; TLDR: just a reminder to all; don't expect pgi to test anything. and if they do, expect horrible things to come out of it. you should all be glad the cauldron does all the hard work right now, testing/balance is a gazillion times better than it was before.
on the same note: be glad the scattershot gets toned down this quickly. it's still gonna be a very good mech afterwards, just a little less p2w.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 21 May 2023 - 08:05 AM.

[Raffen Volt]

This is why it's better to wait out the new Legendaries for at least one patch cycle to see if it's going to get nerfed before buying. There's plenty of Mechs available to use that you can get by just playing the game and not having to spend any money. Hell, PGI even gives out a free Mech every month for just playing the game, plus we get 3x C-Bill events regularly now, and there's usually 50% sales on Mechs at least once every month. The best thing about the Legendaries tbh is the battlepass. Lots of C-Bills, MC, and cockpit items per Legendary. Long story short, buy Legendaries at your own risk, and if you think they are overpowered when they get released, they probably are, and will have a nerf coming in the future.

[Meep Meep]

Navid A1, on 20 May 2023 - 04:50 PM, said:

Granted, on the surface it seems like there is some conspiracy going on when you see adjustments a month after release (but paying attention to the entire legendary line up, you see that it's not the case).
We are asked to maintain balance and that's what we'll do to the best of our abilities.

Thanks for replying in this and the other thread which I will repost your reply for context.

Navid A1, on 20 May 2023 - 05:03 PM, said:

And how do you expect us to test these mechs before they come out?
There is no test server. None.

So since the pts is out of the question how about inquiring if pgi can make a few test accounts your group can use in private lobby sessions to test stuff out?

It would take a bit of initial work to setup by making a few new test mechs and weapons only available in the test account whose data can be changed to suit your needs for whatever it is you are working on.

The process would be to submit your changes so that they can insert it into the current workflow and get the mechs and weapons data changed(possibly with cauldron access so you can do it yourself if possible) then hop into a lobby and have at it. You could even invite non cauldron to the lobby for testing since they won't have access to any of the features of the test account.

Certainly much less work than setting up a complete pts and would be useful to in house testing too.


edit: meh shooting down my own idea. This would require a patch to the live game to work since the data wouldn't exist on it. But still if a process is set up then it could be done with a small monthly or bi-monthly patch to insert your proposed changes so you can use the test accounts with them. Still far less effort than a full pts deployment.

Edited by Meep Meep, 21 May 2023 - 01:39 PM.

[RickySpanish]

Meep Meep, on 20 May 2023 - 05:50 PM, said:

Traditionally items you can buy with cash only are considered off limits for change unless its a global change that effects all items. Otherwise what stops devs from selling op items to drive high sales only to nerf them after the sales peak?

Aha. So you did buy it for the blatantly overtuned quirks that were so obviously overtuned it's a wonder it ever got released. See that's your problem choom; you went for the p2w apple.