91 replies to this topic

[Risen Trash]

I saw in the patch notes somewhere that the devs are trying really hard to figure out how to work drop decks into quickplay.

One of the few things left to like about this game is the novelty of having one life per match. You make mistakes; you pay in real terms. You want to Leeroy; you pay in real terms. You want to "sacrifice yourself?" That's admirable. By definition, a "sacrifice" requires you to suffer consequences.

The consequence for early death in MWO is as elegant as it is edifying: You have to either sit and watch your remaining teammates suck almost as bad as you did (hey, at least they're still alive) until they lose the match, or watch your teammates carry your sorry sack and win this thing without you. Either way, in spectating you might just learn something about how the game is played. Or how the game shouldn't be played.

"Spectator Mode," which I like to call "fail roulette" on my saltier nights, is what sets MWO apart from the rest of the chud-arenas out there. More to the point, forcing you to "time out" and watch other people play is a great thing. When you decide to get better at MWO, one of the first things you have to learn is how to stay alive. It takes the play to a whole other level.

I love how we used to have modes with drop decks and group play, but they're either gone or on life-support now, because most people who play this game DO NOT LIKE THEM.

The solution? Well, what if we took these features that most players have proven for years that they're really not into and foist them on those players anyway, in the one mode that they still play, in large part because these suck-@55 features don't apply there?

Gee, I don't know why we keep losing players. The best players love drop decks and group play; what's wrong with the rest of this stupid community?

Many of us (I used to say "most," but I'm feeling like one of the last hold-outs these days) liked it when dropping solo meant your twelve randos against their twelve randos, but groups gotta club seal, so we've lost that.

Now, many of us like it when "quickplay" meant dropping into a "pick up game" (you know that's what PUG stands for, right?) and playing for a few minutes. You could string a few of these matches together over a night or afternoon if you had time, but you could get in a match here or there if you didn't. Drop decks and respawn will kill that, too.

Longer matches may mean less stress on the MM, so long as longer matches don't drive away still more of the community. In that case, it's the proverbial nail in the coffin.

But hey, the people who can afford to play for hours on end, 3-5 days a week say they'll love it, and they're the ones that matter, right?

I started playing years ago, open beta. I've left and come back a few times, started over, anything to keep it fresh, keep my hand in. I always come back to MWO because it was my first online PVP experience and the nostalgia runs deep. But the fact is that I'm not the best at this game and I don't think PGI is listening to anyone who doesn't think they're the best at this game.

TLDR: PGI should spend more time and energy turning Community Warfare into the mode that was promised to us to begin with than trying to turn quick, solo play into the sh***y mess CW turned out to be.

I put that.

Edited because I had more to say.

Edited by Risen Trash, 18 July 2023 - 03:31 PM.

[RickySpanish]

I agree about group oriented players being insincere about why soup queue is needed, but drop decks would actually add a tactical element to the game. It won't fix matches that would have been 12 to 0 in the old system, but it does allow flexibility in your strategy and a chance to get back at the player who got you. It also makes objectives slightly more important, especially if the objective is likely to be completed before everyone's drop decks are expended.

[Tromoskyon Rex]

I would be down for a drop deck with one life but you get to choose your mech based on the map. I do not want 4 lives in any way shape or form unless the timer is kept at 15 minutes. Part of what I love about this game is that quick play is quick. If I wanted a 20-30 minute long match I would reinstall Battlefield.

[JediPanther]

Meh drop deck and spawn farming is what made hundreds of players give up on fw along with the group vs solos wait times. Do that to qp and you might as well take a hammer to the server and announce mwo v2 in UE5/6. If qp as it is now wasn't an option i'd have quit the game years ago.

[TheCaptainJZ]

The reason they're investigating it is because it has proven popular in the event queue. That's what has spurred the sudden idea of adding drop decks to QP.

It would be fine if it was to pick a starting mech in a match. That's a long overdue request.

And it could work in a certain game mode if that game mode was designed with respawns in mind.

Many folks are worried that it will 1. make matches longer and 2. steamrolls will be even larger flops, both of which is likely.

If they keep QP at 15 mins but you get 4 mechs, you will probably not use them all and you'd get to play for the whole 15 minutes except when waiting on the dropship. They'd have to do something about farming, probably making dropships more powerful. If all players have mechs, then there is more incentive to play for the objective in more matches. There's still work that would need to be done on those to make it play better, like Dominion still basically requires killing the enemy team, or at least try to all within a short period of time so you can count down the timer while they respawn. Conquest would work with respawns the best if the cap limit was also increased. Skirmish would play worse. If they added a CTF type of game, infinite respawns could be fun though. But the game modes we have just wouldn't really play well for it, unless you change the expectation that all matches run out the timer and the win criterial is most kills or more cap points or whatever.

[Risen Trash]

RickySpanish, on 18 July 2023 - 04:47 PM, said:

drop decks would actually add a tactical element to the game.

I don't think it would net *add* anything. To be sure, it would *change* tactical elements as they stand now. Surely, you haven't come here to argue that this game, with its brutal cap on the currency of life we must decide how to spend (both as an individual and team as a whole) has no tactical element?

The tactical element, as I understand it now in a fair solo PUG, requires a smart commitment of harshly finite resources: You have to figure out where you can put your more against their less as quickly as possible. You can throw numbers at an objective, but it will always be short math you must do not only quickly but in such a way that 12 glorious randos will execute, and if you're wrong you either have to be flat-out better at staying alive in the eye of the sh*!storm or hope the enemy is flat-out worse at this than you are. If you don't like it, that's okay. But that's tactics in this game, and players that can "call it" like that are pretty cool to drop with.

I'm aware it has its drawbacks. NASCAR isn't just the maps' fault, its the result of it being an easy to execute and often effective plan for a PUG squad on the light, fast end. Respawn might complicate the environment enough that other simple and effective tactics may develop, I'll grant. Having said that, NASCAR is a problem, but as far as sucking the fun out of a match goes, it's not spawn-camping.

You know what a rolfstomp is?
It's great when you're good enough to imagine you n your buds consistently on the winning end.

You know what it is when it goes on for four lives?
Something that the rest of us can leave out.

[Risen Trash]

Razgriz_, on 18 July 2023 - 04:48 PM, said:

I would be down for a drop deck with one life but you get to choose your mech based on the map. I do not want 4 lives in any way shape or form unless the timer is kept at 15 minutes.

I gave you a like for this, because I'm sayin'!

But I disagree on letting us pick maps then pick mechs. Before everyone gave up and just started "boating," there were arguments for more lore-friendly stock builds*. Even when stripped and modded, people tried to argue for "balanced builds," "mixed builds," that sort of thing. Mechs before maps is the last remnant of that kind of game.

I think of it as a balancing mechanism. If you over commit to a system you will suffer when you have to drop onto a map that exaggerates said system's drawbacks. It forces players to change their optimal tactics to "something that works," which in my opinion is a good thing every now and then in the map rotation. The tactics on our abysmally small map selection are limited as they are. I don't want to "Always run LRM's on this map" or "Never run LL on that map." We all have maps we love and hate; I feel that's part of what makes MWO.

* Why Trial Mechs Suck

Edited by Risen Trash, 18 July 2023 - 06:29 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah i have been playing for years and am fully against drop decks in QP. its alright for EQ and FP but keep it out of QP. if you want drop decks that bad go play FP breath some life into that mode instead of trying to make everything one mode.

as for a Drop eck where you can select a number of mechs (say 4 for simplicity) and then get to choose one of those when the match starts adn only get to use that mech that match (one life per match) i could work with that. i mean it would lead to more specialized builds instead of generalized ones but people already sort of do that. at least i wouldn't get stuck on Solaris with my LRM boat or some long range sniper fest map in a brawler. though this might also lower the diversity of builds you see from game to game (something i always enjoy about lower tier players is that they are more often to try something off the wall and run with it than say T1s who only ever play the same 3 meta builds over and over. even better when they take a sub par or odd build and do well with it).

so year we already have a mode with drop decks leave it at that. i can to some degree understand why they added groups to QP, the population was so low that it was taking forever to get matches and dividing QP (essentially) into 3 buckets (Groups, Comp, and normal QP) just made things worse. by merging all the QP buckets into one they helped to keep the sinking ship afloat a while longer. no one really ever played Solaris so getting rid of it was a no brainer.

i do like EQ as it is simply because it adds in some oddball game types (things like all Urbies or infinite JJ fuel and all the other odd perimeters they have added (though for some like Urbie Derbie with dropdeck i think they should allow you to fill the drop deck with the same mech so those newer players who might only have one of a certain chassis can still play fully)). just because i like EQ doesn't mean i want it in QP. i like the quick one and done matches. if i F up and die early i can always drop out and grab another mech to roll the dice again or spectate. if it looks to be a good match i will stay and watch if not i just go on to the next, done, no need to burn through 4 mechs when i know from the get go that its going to be a stomp. mind you Drop decks are NOT the reason i hate FP that is a whole nother rant that i am not going to start here.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 18 July 2023 - 06:24 PM.

[SafeScanner]

Lockheed_, on 18 July 2023 - 06:21 PM, said:

I really would love to know who is in their ear and keeps pushing this stupid idea all the time.
The copy pasted patch notes lines about how they are still investigating how to make respawn and drop decks happen seems like they are thinking we are all sitting here waiting eagerly for this oh so amazing feature.

Better its "investigating" than we will drop this on you because of "popular" support

i would support a limited/restricted respawn system maybe thrown into incursion out side of that not so much

[CFC Conky]

Lots of other games have features that prevent spawn-camping. It shouldn’t be too hard for PGI to implement something. Defense turrets already exist, place multiple indestructible turrets at the spawn points.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Risen Trash]

CFC Conky, on 18 July 2023 - 06:36 PM, said:

Lots of other games have features that prevent spawn-camping. It shouldn’t be too hard for PGI to implement something.
CFC Conky

They did. It works brilliantly in QP, right now.

[VeeOt Dragon]

the problem with that is that some players would just sit in their spawn hoping the other team would push into that zone so they can mop up the enemy thanks to the extra damage from the defenses. ok then you say put a timer on how long you can stay in the spawn, well that doesn't help either. then the other team just has to wait outside the range of those defenses knowing you have to come out and camp you that way.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Risen Trash, on 18 July 2023 - 06:58 PM, said:

They did. It works brilliantly in QP, right now.

yep, one match one life, no possibility of spawn camping because there are no respawns. works perfectly as is lets keep it that way.

[RockmachinE]

If they make drop deck mandatory and not optional in QP. Mechwarrior Online as we know it is dead. Its too big of a change.

Mark my words.

Edited by RockmachinE, 18 July 2023 - 08:29 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

Completely against "eternal life" in MWO.
You dead, eject, mech destroyed.

[LordNothing]

my experiences is that decked modes are ok, and that the baggage of unregulated, unfiltered, groups is what ultimately kills the concept. in eq i dont think there is any mm at all, groups are capped but can be stacked. in fp, the mm is perpetually in a disabled state because you have the bare minimum of players required for a match (or less) in queue at any given time. op seems more troubled by skill disparities from the lack of effective matchmaking and/or the group-vs-solo disparity than by the decks themselves, and have made of them a scapegoat.

decks are good because the mm process is slow. if you are going to spend 5 minutes looking for a match, with the 3 or so minutes it takes to load, vote, connect, etc, and play for 8 min. you have now spent half of your time not playing the game, before you even account for whether or not you spectated (i usually only do if its a very close game, is near completion, or is otherwise interesting). by adding decks, and a 60-second spawn timer, which happens up to 3 times. you have added a mere 3 minutes of wait time, but improved play time by a factor of four (barring timeout).

however, depending on match type and game clocks, you do not always have time to play all 4 if you play in a cautious, boring manor. it does however allow you more agency to take risks. if you are going to lose with mechs in your deck you have effectively left resources on the table, which you could have used to win by playing a little more aggressively. there are scoring incentives to use fewer mechs, but if players are constantly losing to try to maximize their scoring, then they are making poor choices. aggression, when practiced by the bulk of the team (not by solo leeroys), is not only a very exciting way to play the game, but also frequently results in victory.

i do disagree with how scoring is handled. victory should be a flat score multiplier that applies to your final score, whatever you did to win gets multiplied by that factor. also rather than dividing your match score by the number of mechs used, you get an under tonnage bonus for every 5 tons you leave in the hanger (also applies to unused deck tonnage, say if you are better in lights or mediums). this small change would incentivize winning over keeping your mechs shiny.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 July 2023 - 11:50 PM.

[LordNothing]

VeeOt Dragon, on 18 July 2023 - 07:02 PM, said:

the problem with that is that some players would just sit in their spawn hoping the other team would push into that zone so they can mop up the enemy thanks to the extra damage from the defenses. ok then you say put a timer on how long you can stay in the spawn, well that doesn't help either. then the other team just has to wait outside the range of those defenses knowing you have to come out and camp you that way.

yea but thats not the way it plays out. spawn camps are always initialized by a strong skill disparity, where both teams push the middle and one goes completely through the other with very little damage, and no reason to stop advancing. so they meet the second wave at spawn, and because there is a strong skill disparity no level of local defenses can save the camped team. the "let them come" mentality loses more games than it wins and so nobody with any sense would hide in spawn as a tactical advantage.

[RockmachinE]

The very fact dropdecks spark such a heated discussion from both camps shows its a bad idea for MWO on the whole at this moment.

[Bud Crue]

TheCaptainJZ, on 18 July 2023 - 05:13 PM, said:

The reason they're investigating it is because it has proven popular in the event queue. That's what has spurred the sudden idea of adding drop decks to QP.

I know this is crazy talk, but hear me out: if drop decks are popular in the event queue and lots of folks don't want drop decks in quick play, then perhaps we should just keep having drop decks in the event queue. I know, I know! It's a nuts idea, but it just might work!

[sycocys]

Well you can't make drops ships more powerful because it will be the same as both early turrets and fp - they will either decide the match or you'll just have a complete shift to longer range to counter for the squads that find their fun in spawn camping.

FP wouldn't have died if they had worried less about having hyper detailed maps and spending 3 months developing a universe/meta map game and developed 20-30+ maps they could detail over time so it wouldn't have been the same 3-4 maps and which side of the map you play on top of spawn camping. Also wouldn't have hurt if they made some actual attempt at balancing tech and restricting unit movement so they were forced to compete with each other.

Realistically to semi-revive (with current population) FP what they need to do is set up a system to match up 2 opposing teams for a string of matches.
QP needs 20 more maps and the drop points on the current maps moved to shift the game back away from deathball.