43 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

sycocys, on 11 August 2023 - 03:17 AM, said:

12-2/3 usually isn't a stomp. If you actually look at the damage numbers a lot of times 12-1/2 isn't a stomp either, just one team didn't secure the kills while the other team spread damage and rotated.

If you get 3 assaults that do 1 alpha worth of damage, yes you are going to lose that match and probably lopsided in the final count just about every time. If you are one of those assaults that do 34 damage and are blaming the mm, realize the skill level matching can only go so low.

i beg to differ there, i consider any match that ends in a anything worse than a 12-3 maybe 12-4 a "Stomp". it doesn't matter how much damage was done by each player.

[pbiggz]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 04:39 AM, said:

i beg to differ there, i consider any match that ends in a anything worse than a 12-3 maybe 12-4 a "Stomp". it doesn't matter how much damage was done by each player.

Actually it does matter how much damage was done by each player. Its like, one of the only things that does matter.

If each team has X armor, and both teams go through, say 85% of each other's armor, slight variations on WHAT armor got removed might make that look like a 12-2 stomp in terms of kills. Kills actually arent a very good indicator of team performance at all, but they're the only thing people focus on because no matter what game mode you are playing that is how you force the game to end.

If total damage done/total armor lost for each team was shown on the score card at the end of the match I promise you most stomps would not look like stomps. One team was just better at turning damage into kills than the other.

This is also another argument in favour of respawns. Stomps are as sour as they are because they're insultingly punishing. You have to stop playing the game while the enemy team mops up your idiot team mates and you get no choice but to watch, but some people have decided this is somehow a good thing because it teaches new players personal responsibility or some made up ********.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 August 2023 - 04:45 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i have never once been in a match that ends 12-1 where anyone more than perhaps one player maybe 2 has a Match score indicating that they did any good amount of damage. this fabled "oh nearly every player did close to or more than 400 damage but never got a kill" is likely something that only happens once in 1,000 stomps. oh you might have one or two players on a loosing team manage something in a stomp but thats about it. oh i have had a matches now and again where i do a fantastic amount of damage (1,000+) and don't manage a kill but in all of these cases the team wins and i do manage KMDDs (honestly i have been so close to Ace of Spades so many times but never seem to manage to get that 5th kill, if you counted KMDD i would have had that a Long time ago though). i have never had fun in a stomp no matter what side i was on. either it was boring or just frustrating.


respawns just make a stomp worse not better. instead of being done and just being able to move on to the next roll of the dice and hope for a better match-up now i have to slog through respawns and let the other team just sit there and farm my team for even longer or vise versa. doesn't sound like fun to me. i used to play FP back in the day and that is one of the main reasons (other than toxic ******** and 12 man premades) that i no longer play that mode and wont go back to it unless there is some really good reward for doing so (the last FP event i only played long enough for the mech bay and then went back to QP). keep drop decks and respawns in FP/EQ and leave QP as one and done. also you do have a choice as long as you have more than one mech in your stable. you can just exit match after you die and move on to the next match. 99% of the time even if you are the first mech down that mech is available again by the time you finish another match. (i am not a fan of the mech lockdown mechanic but what can ya do? i would still rather have that than drop decks or other respawns in QP). though with the low population we have now days there are times of day on certain servers where that mech becomes available before the new match even starts, thats more a population problem than a MM one though.

not saying i would be opposed to seeing a total team damage dealt/taken indicator at the end of match screen though. it honestly wouldn't be a hard thing for PGI to implement but they have much more important things to spend time/money on.

(Side Note- i only included 12-4 because of those rare matches where you have one guy on the loosing team that actually manages to pull something off and gets multiple kills to himself. hell even i have been that guy once or twice and i am an average player so it does happen (the last time this happened when i looked at the end page only one other player had a Match score above 100 on my team))

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 11 August 2023 - 05:57 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

pbiggz, on 11 August 2023 - 04:44 AM, said:

Actually it does matter how much damage was done by each player. Its like, one of the only things that does matter.

If each team has X armor, and both teams go through, say 85% of each other's armor, slight variations on WHAT armor got removed might make that look like a 12-2 stomp in terms of kills. Kills actually arent a very good indicator of team performance at all, but they're the only thing people focus on because no matter what game mode you are playing that is how you force the game to end.

If total damage done/total armor lost for each team was shown on the score card at the end of the match I promise you most stomps would not look like stomps. One team was just better at turning damage into kills than the other.

This is also another argument in favour of respawns. Stomps are as sour as they are because they're insultingly punishing. You have to stop playing the game while the enemy team mops up your idiot team mates and you get no choice but to watch, but some people have decided this is somehow a good thing because it teaches new players personal responsibility or some made up ********.

The game becomes increasingly difficult to play for its own sake in the presence of so many things that seem designed to punish. Mech match-locking, one life one game. It generates a drive to do better not as a personal goal but to escape that punishment. In the presence of this pressure, match performance by hook or crook becomes the overriding factor and a metagame emerges of "always be the last to die, view your teammates as tools to be used and expended towards that end". 12v12 is now 1v23.

Some players have leaned HARD into this and view it as a positive impetus and favorable direction. Which is just as well because it shows no sign of changing.

Edited by the check engine light, 11 August 2023 - 06:10 AM.

[pbiggz]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 05:53 AM, said:

i have never once been in a match that ends 12-1 where anyone more than perhaps one player maybe 2 has a Match score indicating that they did any good amount of damage. this fabled "oh nearly every player did close to or more than 400 damage but never got a kill" is likely something that only happens once in 1,000 stomps. oh you might have one or two players on a loosing team manage something in a stomp but thats about it. oh i have had a matches now and again where i do a fantastic amount of damage (1,000+) and don't manage a kill but in all of these cases the team wins and i do manage KMDDs (honestly i have been so close to Ace of Spades so many times but never seem to manage to get that 5th kill, if you counted KMDD i would have had that a Long time ago though). i have never had fun in a stomp no matter what side i was on. either it was boring or just frustrating.

Translation: Nuance is inconvenient so you reject it.

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 05:53 AM, said:

respawns just make a stomp worse not better. instead of being done and just being able to move on to the next roll of the dice and hope for a better match-up now i have to slog through respawns and let the other team just sit there and farm my team for even longer or vise versa. doesn't sound like fun to me. i used to play FP back in the day and that is one of the main reasons (other than toxic ******** and 12 man premades) that i no longer play that mode and wont go back to it unless there is some really good reward for doing so (the last FP event i only played long enough for the mech bay and then went back to QP). keep drop decks and respawns in FP/EQ and leave QP as one and done. also you do have a choice as long as you have more than one mech in your stable. you can just exit match after you die and move on to the next match. 99% of the time even if you are the first mech down that mech is available again by the time you finish another match. (i am not a fan of the mech lockdown mechanic but what can ya do? i would still rather have that than drop decks or other respawns in QP). though with the low population we have now days there are times of day on certain servers where that mech becomes available before the new match even starts, thats more a population problem than a MM one though.

not saying i would be opposed to seeing a total team damage dealt/taken indicator at the end of match screen though. it honestly wouldn't be a hard thing for PGI to implement but they have much more important things to spend time/money on.

(Side Note- i only included 12-4 because of those rare matches where you have one guy on the loosing team that actually manages to pull something off and gets multiple kills to himself. hell even i have been that guy once or twice and i am an average player so it does happen (the last time this happened when i looked at the end page only one other player had a Match score above 100 on my team))

Every time people pipe up about respawns you come out of the woodwork to talk about how much you hate faction play. Its irrelevant. You can stop bringing that up now.

[Curccu]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 05:53 AM, said:

i have never once been in a match that ends 12-1 where anyone more than perhaps one player maybe 2 has a Match score indicating that they did any good amount of damage.

Someone getting the kill affects matchscore a lot for everyone involved, Killing blows, KMDDs, Assissts, and what else we got that are tied to enemy actually dying doesn't happen and thats why match scores are low for everyone even if damages would be about same for both sides..

[pbiggz]

the check engine light, on 11 August 2023 - 06:09 AM, said:

The game becomes increasingly difficult to play for its own sake in the presence of so many things that seem designed to punish. Mech match-locking, one life one game. It generates a drive to do better not as a personal goal but to escape that punishment. In the presence of this pressure, match performance by hook or crook becomes the overriding factor and a metagame emerges of "always be the last to die, view your teammates as tools to be used and expended towards that end". 12v12 is now 1v23.

Some players have leaned HARD into this and view it as a positive impetus and favorable direction. Which is just as well because it shows no sign of changing.

A ton of these "features" are artifacts of an older, more feature complete RPG/Simulator game. The one MWO was meant to be before brain drain killed PGI's dev team, IGP disinvested, and the game went on life support. All these points of friction are being left in the game by accident, not on purpose. It is laughable to me that some players think mech locking and a lack of respawns are some kind of calculated design choice. They aren't. They're leftovers nobody has thought to address because the guys who hard coded them into the game left the company over a decade ago to double their pay somewhere else.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

pbiggz, on 11 August 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

A ton of these "features" are artifacts of an older, more feature complete RPG/Simulator game. The one MWO was meant to be before brain drain killed PGI's dev team, IGP disinvested, and the game went on life support. All these points of friction are being left in the game by accident, not on purpose. It is laughable to me that some players think mech locking and a lack of respawns are some kind of calculated design choice. They aren't. They're leftovers nobody has thought to address because the guys who hard coded them into the game left the company over a decade ago to double their pay somewhere else.

Heck of a reverse severance package there.

[VeeOt Dragon]

meh, every player is different i guess. i'm more a Casual player. i might come in and play a few matches a day during an event and then take long breaks. there was a time i would play many hours a day for days in a row but that was years ago. mostly i figure if i do around 400 damage and get a kill or two (or at least a couple KMDDs) i have done my fair share. then again i am also a player who often uses AMS if i can fit it or plays LRM (a weapon system i consider more a support weapon since i can use it to fire over terrain when a teammate calls for help if they press R). hell i love my Corsair-7A, its not a big damage dealer but it eats up a tone of incoming missile fire that would otherwise damage my teammates and the Catapult-C4 has always been a favorite LRM mech of mine since my Table Top days. i'm just not an overly competitive player, i don't feel i have to be the best on the team to have a good time.

what i am trying to say is that as a casual player i prefer the shorter matches that the one and done system gives. i can come in play for even half an hour and get a couple matches in then go on to some other game or a show (been Watching "Band of Brothers" the last day or so actually.) if someone wants respawns and drop decks there is a game mode for that called Faction Play.

as for the mech Locking i think that was Added when the game went from a Subscription model to a Free-to-play model. not sure as that was before my time (i refuse to play any subscription game as i find it not worth the investment). i think it was one of those things they added to get people to buy Mech bays/packs with real cash.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 11 August 2023 - 06:53 AM.

[pbiggz]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

meh, every player is different i guess. i'm more a Casual player. i might come in and play a few matches a day during an event and then take long breaks. there was a time i would play many hours a day for days in a row but that was years ago. mostly i figure if i do around 400 damage and get a kill or two (or at least a couple KMDDs) i have done my fair share. then again i am also a player who often uses AMS if i can fit it or plays LRM (a weapon system i consider more a support weapon since i can use it to fire over terrain when a teammate calls for help if they press R). hell i love my Corsair-7A, its not a big damage dealer but it eats up a tone of incoming missile fire that would otherwise damage my teammates and the Catapult-C4 has always been a favorite LRM mech of mine since my Table Top days. i'm just not an overly competitive player, i don't feel i have to be the best on the team to have a good time.

I am not a competitive player. A game that rewards and values the minute-to-minute experience is one that takes care of its casual players much better. This game does not do that.

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

what i am trying to say is that as a casual player i prefer the shorter matches that the one and done system gives. i can come in play for even half an hour and get a couple matches in then go on to some other game or a show (been Watching "Band of Brothers" the last day or so actually.)

Agreed, which is why QP matches should have a no more than 10 minute long timer on them.

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

if someone wants respawns and drop decks there is a game mode for that called Faction Play.

Similar to the discussion about mech locking being a weird leftover, factionplay is a game mode that suffers from surplus ambition, followed by a lack of ambition. It was clearly meant to be far more than it was, before PGI stripped all the copper wire out of the walls.

Nobody is in that queue, so saying "if you want respawns go play faction play" essentially amounts to "you cant have or ask for that, shut up".

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 06:47 AM, said:

as for the mech Locking i think that was Added when the game went from a Subscription model to a Free-to-play model. not sure as that was before my time (i refuse to play any subscription game as i find it not worth the investment). i think it was one of those things they added to get people to buy Mech bays/packs with real cash.

Mech Locking was from when mech bays and mechs were harder to come by, and you had to pay repair and rearm between matches. It was to make sure you couldn't just spam through matches.

Again, its a leftover from when the game was evidently meant to have more RPG features built in, almost all of which were abandoned soon after, but these weird artifacts are still left over.

[RickySpanish]

Nevermind how sad the MM is, it's the players that suck. Spawn on Alpine, immediately realise we are on I9/H9 side.

"OK guys I9 H9 high ground defense, let's go!"

2 minutes later.

"Guys why did you rush the enemy low ground single file?"

No answer.

The Matchmaker cannot solve issues like this, players who act like this deserve the stomp that's coming. I lost every game I played last night trying to carry in an Assault. Highest damage on my team each game of course. In the end I gave up, and played ER PPC Blanner A, LPPC/MRM Belial and LPL Nighty Gyr. Won every subsequent game. Why? Because those 'Mechs don't need team mates. You want to win more matches? Ignore your team and carry harder.

Edited by RickySpanish, 11 August 2023 - 07:49 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

well if all the people who call for drop decks and respawns played FP instead of QP there might be enough players there to make matches for FP more regularly (though maybe not, low population rears its ugly head again). though it does bring up the idea of a FP "light" essentially FP with MM but again low population makes that an impossibility. all i am saying is that the game mode already exists. every time someone calls for Drop Decks/respawns in QP it can be seen just the same "i can't play FP because not enough people play it so i want QP to be more like FP" it just goes back and forth. what i say is that instead of making QP like FP what you need to be calling for is fixing FP so its more of a draw. (again low population means this might not work anyway but forcing FP mechanics into QP might chase people away not bring in more. who knows it might bring in more but i doubt it.) i don't hate drop decks/respawns i just don't think QP is the place for it.

hell i remember when MWO first came out even if i didn't play it back them. FP or rather Community Warfare as it was called seemed like an interesting idea. they just sort of stalled out an didn't go anywhere with it. then they added Solaris (was never interested in this at all and i figured it wouldn't do well). the time and money spent on that could have gone to making FP better but hind sight is 20/20 as they say.

Sadly MWO really is struggling to keep its head above water. to many things need to be done and everyone has a differing view on what that is. there might be a few years left in it but i think thats about it unless something changes that will draw in new players.


yeah i wasn't sure on when the whole mech locking thing happened. i didn't start playing MWO until it was F2P and even then it was a few years after that (i didn't have a PC or internet connection capable of playing it back then)

it was bad enough when they had to merge groups into QP due to low population. don't get me wrong it wasn't something i was immediately against. at first i just sort of shrugged and said "ok, if thats what needs to be done to keep things going then we can give it a go". sadly the MM doesn't know how to properly handle it most of the time. (its also why lances are so messed up these days. used to be they were roughly on Weight class. now its just all over the place.) i still think it could work if the MM could handle it right it just doesn't seem able to, to many parameters to few players i guess.

if nothing else we can agree that the Mech locking thing needs to be removed at this stage. i do think that would improve New Player Experience (its only an annoyance really to those of us who have more than enough mechs to deal with it).

[VeeOt Dragon]

RickySpanish, on 11 August 2023 - 07:46 AM, said:

Nevermind how sad the MM is, it's the players that suck. Spawn on Alpine, immediately realise we are on I9/H9 side. "OK guys I9 H9 high ground defense, let's go!" 2 minutes later. "Guys why did you rush the enemy low ground single file?" No answer. The Matchmaker cannot solve issues like this, players who act like this deserve the stomp that's coming. I lost every game I played last night trying to carry in an Assault. Highest damage on my team each game of course. In the end I gave up, and played ER PPC Blanner A, LPPC/MRM Belial and LPL Nighty Gyr. Won every subsequent game. Why? Because those 'Mechs don't need team mates. You want to win more matches? Ignore your team and carry harder.

true enough, you play MWO long enough and you can guess how a match will turn out pretty early and its not event hat hard to figure out. sometimes i think people just turn off coms entirely or those that do use it are in a group and are using some outside program and don't bother filling the rest of the team in on their plan if they even have one.

i'm no better half the time honestly. most of the time i don't say anything because no one ever listens anyway. i might make a comment at end of match from time to time bu its usually out of frustration. oh if a team is using coms i am more likely to do so as well but most games are just silence.

sometimes i will make a comment like "saw that loss coming" and someone will pipe up with "why didn't you say something earlier" after having been silent the whole match. makes me want to ask if they would have listened if i did. (aggravatingly i have one of those voices that in direct conversation is fine but over coms/telephone or any other such thing its pitched up for some reason making my nearly 40 year old self sound like i'm 12. i really need to figure out if there is a way i can fix that sort of thing on my PC at least.)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 11 August 2023 - 08:41 AM.

[Elizander]

Sometimes it might seem like a stomp, but I know the surviving enemy mechs were all cored and ready to esplode, but the team just wasn't able to secure the kills.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 08:25 AM, said:

well if all the people who call for drop decks and respawns played FP instead of QP there might be enough players there to make matches for FP more regularly (though maybe not, low population rears its ugly head again). though it does bring up the idea of a FP "light" essentially FP with MM but again low population makes that an impossibility. all i am saying is that the game mode already exists. every time someone calls for Drop Decks/respawns in QP it can be seen just the same "i can't play FP because not enough people play it so i want QP to be more like FP" it just goes back and forth. what i say is that instead of making QP like FP what you need to be calling for is fixing FP so its more of a draw. (again low population means this might not work anyway but forcing FP mechanics into QP might chase people away not bring in more. who knows it might bring in more but i doubt it.) i don't hate drop decks/respawns i just don't think QP is the place for it.

hell i remember when MWO first came out even if i didn't play it back them. FP or rather Community Warfare as it was called seemed like an interesting idea. they just sort of stalled out an didn't go anywhere with it. then they added Solaris (was never interested in this at all and i figured it wouldn't do well). the time and money spent on that could have gone to making FP better but hind sight is 20/20 as they say.

Sadly MWO really is struggling to keep its head above water. to many things need to be done and everyone has a differing view on what that is. there might be a few years left in it but i think thats about it unless something changes that will draw in new players.


yeah i wasn't sure on when the whole mech locking thing happened. i didn't start playing MWO until it was F2P and even then it was a few years after that (i didn't have a PC or internet connection capable of playing it back then)

it was bad enough when they had to merge groups into QP due to low population. don't get me wrong it wasn't something i was immediately against. at first i just sort of shrugged and said "ok, if thats what needs to be done to keep things going then we can give it a go". sadly the MM doesn't know how to properly handle it most of the time. (its also why lances are so messed up these days. used to be they were roughly on Weight class. now its just all over the place.) i still think it could work if the MM could handle it right it just doesn't seem able to, to many parameters to few players i guess.

if nothing else we can agree that the Mech locking thing needs to be removed at this stage. i do think that would improve New Player Experience (its only an annoyance really to those of us who have more than enough mechs to deal with it).

I would say it's more than an annoyance if you have a stable of mechs that all handle and shoot a bit different. It's also why I don't entirely like the "if one chassis isn't doing it switch it up" approach.

[RickySpanish]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 08:34 AM, said:

true enough, you play MWO long enough and you can guess how a match will turn out pretty early and its not event hat hard to figure out. sometimes i think people just turn off coms entirely or those that do use it are in a group and are using some outside program and don't bother filling the rest of the team in on their plan if they even have one.

i'm no better half the time honestly. most of the time i don't say anything because no one ever listens anyway. i might make a comment at end of match from time to time bu its usually out of frustration. oh if a team is using coms i am more likely to do so as well but most games are just silence.

sometimes i will make a comment like "saw that loss coming" and someone will pipe up with "why didn't you say something earlier" after having been silent the whole match. makes me want to ask if they would have listened if i did. (aggravatingly i have one of those voices that in direct conversation is fine but over coms/telephone or any other such thing its pitched up for some reason making my nearly 40 year old self sound like i'm 12. i really need to figure out if there is a way i can fix that sort of thing on my PC at least.)

It might be whatever speaker you are playing your voice from colours vocals in a particular way, or your microphone, or both? Is your voice particularly deep? Maybe the lower end of your speech is being cut out.

[Papa Varken]

Advertising, advertising, advertising . . . rather than keep pushing the stand alone MW5, they need to publicise MWO and use the money folk have paid into the game, to actually support the game they want to play, not just make profits and excuses for PGI/ Affiliates.

[Nine-Ball]

There is a difference between Tier 5 and Tier 1.

There is also a difference between Tier 1s that is as big a gap as Tier 5 to Tier 1 (think White Mamba quote, "I'm closer to Lebron skillwise then you are to me"). Specifically those who are Tier 1 who only really QP and not faction play or much of anything else because [reasons] vs those who faction play and compete in organized scrims, matches and tournaments, etc etc etc.

So even if MM hits a home run and matches tiers evenly between the two teams, if your Tier 1 is someone like me vs a Tier 1 competitive faction play person from a clan like NGNG, CLCH, JAGX, etc etc... 9 out 10 times they'll get stomped cause I'm just that good.

Edited by Nine-Ball, 11 August 2023 - 10:04 AM.

[sycocys]

VeeOt Dragon, on 11 August 2023 - 04:39 AM, said:

i beg to differ there, i consider any match that ends in a anything worse than a 12-3 maybe 12-4 a "Stomp". it doesn't matter how much damage was done by each player.

If you start to track the entire damage done and what mechs are on the field, even if you do it very roughly, you'll find that even most 12-0s and 12-1s are far closer matches even despite (or maybe because of) a couple dud players.

One team just had players that were more aggressive in securing kills, but damage done and received is a far better indicator of how the match actually went.

[crazytimes]

RickySpanish, on 11 August 2023 - 08:48 AM, said:

It might be whatever speaker you are playing your voice from colours vocals in a particular way, or your microphone, or both? Is your voice particularly deep? Maybe the lower end of your speech is being cut out.

I've played with him on the same team three matches in a row. He didn't stop talking and was perfectly clear the whole time. At no point was there value being added and I think I ended up stopping mid battle at one point and muting him, probably when he was recounting his medical history when other people were trying to at least call targets.

His "problem" with comms isn't that people can't hear his voice. At least not until they mute him.

Back to the main topic - seems that a lot of people are confusing their "feelings" about the semantics of what constitutes a "stomp" with the real issue. Are you having fun? If you're not having fun, and you're playing objectively poorly... then why on earth play? Or at least change something about what you are doing.

People want to play objectively badly deliberately through either build choice or play style, then whine about PSR down and "stomps" when they contributed nothing. In a free game. Play something else if it's a problem.