62 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

This post is willfully ignorant at best, and flat out trolling at worst. Obviously the limiting factors of machine guns are range and the fact that they need to be boated.

[Der Geisterbaer]

KursedVixen, on 15 August 2023 - 01:33 PM, said:

In TT Machine guns were anti-infantry weapons only almost useless against mechs and probaly fairly effective vs vehicles, so it's nice to see PGI giving them a valid role.

In TT machine guns were anti-mechs weapons that did the same damage as an AC/2 (or a singular SRM for that matter) during a time that the game didn't even know non-mech units like vehicles or infantry. Just like in MW:O they were and still are (relatively) low-weight (depending on mech weight class), heat-less, not prone to any form of jamming and with very limited weapon range. They gained additional damage against infantry and worked reasonably well against vehicles (due to the latter's more damage/crit prone hit tables) once those where included into the game but never lost their anti-mech capabilities. Their main drawback was / is the - in terms of TT play situations - overabundant ammo capacities that regularly killed mechs due far more frequent ammo explosions along with the randomization of hit zones (that an FPS shooter like MW:O simply cannot have to such degrees).

=> The whole notion of "anti-infantry"-weapon in TT is (seriously) flawed and unfortunately regularly perpetuated by resources like sarna.net or in discussion threads like this one.

While PGI has given them a role as crit-seakers on de-armored mech sections, they are actually somewhat nerfed when compared against their TT counterparts: 1.0 dps of a singular machine gun vs. IIRC 2.78 dps of an AC/2 on two weapons that have the same damage / dps in TT ... and that difference is not truly compensated by the bonus crit chances / bonus crit damage to internal structure (particularly not now that their crit chances have been nerfed and anti-crit nodes are so easy to get next to pre-existing anti-crit quirks on various larger mechs).

Overall, machine guns are more or less "fine" in MW:O (either due to number or hard points or quirk compensation). They could do better in some ways but certainly shouldn't fare less good - particularly not for light mechs that have to heavily rely on them as part of their main - if not only - viable weapon setup.

[Duke Falcon]

I started to read this. Tried to comprehend, seriously... BUT WUT?!?
MGs now need nerf by let ourselves killed? Hunh, may I run my ACH MG-boat in the next few days?

Not sure what is the OPs trouble with MGs. They not ultra-über-friggin powerfull even if boated because most players (with aiming skills) usually kill MG boats before they could engage seriously (to counter this most skilled light pilots use a magic: cover). Not sure, really... I use MG only in FP (yeah, imagine but bitte laugh not!)

In low tier MGs are a ticket to insta-death usually. Or a reason to run, hide and try to remain hidden 'till the end of the match.
Or let face-huggers kill us for free may make their pilots feel MGs are OP and they ask to nerf it? What the psychologic in this?!

Or this is the new "Lights are OP, ban them" topic format?

feeWAIVER, on 15 August 2023 - 05:02 PM, said:

Man, you scared me! Nevah evah 'gain, bro!

[Captain Dictator]

Better yet, you do us all a favor and boycott making another thread like this again smh

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly the weapons themselves aren't bad. it think they are fine. the trouble is not the MGs themselves but mechs that can boat huge numbers of them. this can be said for a number of weapons. its more a problem with hardpoint bloat than anything else. then again i only rarely use them. i think i have 2 Urbies that have MGs but thats it and even then i think the max i carry is 3 or 4 (they are more a secondary weapon on my Annoyance Urbie with its main weapons being 3 LPPCs.). thats more a me thing though since i am not a huge fan of knife fighting range, i prefer mid range combat myself.

[LordNothing]

VeeOt Dragon, on 17 August 2023 - 05:45 AM, said:

honestly the weapons themselves aren't bad. it think they are fine. the trouble is not the MGs themselves but mechs that can boat huge numbers of them. this can be said for a number of weapons. its more a problem with hardpoint bloat than anything else. then again i only rarely use them. i think i have 2 Urbies that have MGs but thats it and even then i think the max i carry is 3 or 4 (they are more a secondary weapon on my Annoyance Urbie with its main weapons being 3 LPPCs.). thats more a me thing though since i am not a huge fan of knife fighting range, i prefer mid range combat myself.

i think id have just done mgas rather than hardpoint inflation. its not lore but it seems like better design. since mechs with 6+ ballistic slots are rare. mgas would give you the dps of a large number of mgs, but only one crit chance per array. i think that would have been a lot easier to balance. it would also give you another build choice, dps or crit, and mgs-for-crit would have been more valuable in bigger mechs to supplement other weapons.

but its a moot point now, they made their design choice and were living with the consequences. dps is a bad build choice on a light anyway, since the extednded face time results in lost armor/legs/engines. the lack of good ppfld weapons at that size means you cant use the more effective unload and duck strategy as readily. so heres hoping for some light ballistics options other than dps.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah the "Rifle" family would be a good go (though i think thats IS only) i think one could easily fit a Medium Rifle on a light mech. but like you said its a moot point at this stage.

[PocketYoda]

With new weapons systems coming machine guns might be taking a back seat..

As for the piranhas i'd like PGI or Cauldron to run a pass over LBX2s and 5s and make them more viable in close quarters against faster mechs..

Edited by PocketYoda, 18 August 2023 - 05:13 AM.

[SafeScanner]

PocketYoda, on 18 August 2023 - 05:11 AM, said:

With new weapons systems coming machine guns might be taking a back seat..

As for the piranhas i'd like PGI or Cauldron to run a pass over LBX2s and 5s and make them more viable in close quarters against faster mechs..

i am gonna use them both and see what happens

[LordNothing]

VeeOt Dragon, on 17 August 2023 - 09:51 PM, said:

yeah the "Rifle" family would be a good go (though i think thats IS only) i think one could easily fit a Medium Rifle on a light mech. but like you said its a moot point at this stage.

moot only wrt machine guns. rifle worked out really well in mw5. i wouldnt mind those. lac might be better and you could give clans pacs for pairity. either way wouldnt mind either one.

[martian]

RickySpanish, on 16 August 2023 - 09:48 AM, said:

This post is willfully ignorant at best, and flat out trolling at worst. Obviously the limiting factors of machine guns are range and the fact that they need to be boated.

It is always the same: "Light 'Mechs have the same firepower as Assaults." ... Completely ignoring the fact that there is a certain difference between a Machine Gun alpha strike on 130 m (light 'Mech) and Gauss Rifle / ER PPC / ER Large Laser alpha strike on 800 m (assault 'Mech).

[Novakaine]

Hah MG's the new "L" word

[Blood Rose]

KursedVixen, on 15 August 2023 - 01:33 PM, said:

In TT Machine guns were anti-infantry weapons only almost useless against mechs and probaly fairly effective vs vehicles, so it's nice to see PGI giving them a valid role.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but this right here is blatantly false. MG's, as introduced, were point defence weapons quite capable of engaging mechs. Infantry rules would not come out till much later.

[pbiggz]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 15 August 2023 - 11:50 AM, said:

Howdy Mechwarriors,

We continue to have to play with and against machine guns, a weapons system that was implemented terribly into the game. They have no downsides, no heat, shake, jams, etc... and they continue to shoot around oblique corners and chew thru untouched armor in addition to the built in crits, basically overperforming in every single respect except enjoyment. They add nothing good to the play experience, on teammates or adversaries, just a constant vomit of poorly designed mechanic, that takes one out of the game experience, looks terrible, sounds terrible and breeds terrible gameplay choices.


But all this has been posted about plenty of times ad nauseum, the point of this post is to suggest a boycott of MGs in game. The powers that be (thanks for so much fun, love the game) are fully aware of the shortcomings of MGs but have yet to do anything to bring them in line with the positive/negative gameplay philosophy of all the other weapons system. I'm suggesting a boycott of MGs until they do invest the time to implement a better, balanced, and gameplay enriching version of the weapon system.

What I'm suggesting is that when you run into machine guns in game refuse to engage or fight them, ignore them entirely, act as though they are not there and move on to targets without. Yes this means walking away from and quite likely being chewed apart by one of the ever-growing number mechs spamming MGs, it wont be easy, it wont be pleasant, but if it gets the attention and rework of PGI and the advisory board that seem hell bent on forcing more MG into the game it will be worth it for us all in the end when we can drop with and against a balanced and fun machine gun implementation in game.

How are you so committed to being bad at the game? Deliberate ignorance is not a charming personality trait.

Edited by pbiggz, 18 August 2023 - 03:23 PM.

[Marcel Leander]

LordNothing, on 17 August 2023 - 11:01 AM, said:

mgas would give you the dps of a large number of mgs, but only one crit chance per array.

That's not how crits work in the game, though. Crits aren't rolled on the weapon when it fires, they're rolled on the projectile when it hits. When you shoot an LBX with ten pellets, each of the pellets gets its own crit roll if/when it hits. If you fire a beam weapon, it isn't just one long beam with crit or without, it's every tick that is making contact is getting its own crit roll just for that tick. If you're firing off a machine gun, it's sending ten rounds per second and each of them gets a crit roll. And that's why you get better crit performance from weapons that do small amounts of damage very rapidly. With a big weapon where you get one shot every few seconds and maybe it's a big crit or maybe it's not, a missed shot is a missed crit chance and it's a huge loss to sustained dps. A rapid fire weapon's crits are spread out as more of an average dps increase that goes up and down as you keep your crosshairs on target. So regardless of how many hardpoints you're having your weapon take up - MGA's vs MG's, the important factor is how many bullets they're spewing, and also if those bullets have higher crit percentage chances and crit damage multipliers the way MG's and LBX's do.

[LordNothing]

Marcel Leander, on 22 August 2023 - 01:18 AM, said:

That's not how crits work in the game, though. Crits aren't rolled on the weapon when it fires, they're rolled on the projectile when it hits. When you shoot an LBX with ten pellets, each of the pellets gets its own crit roll if/when it hits. If you fire a beam weapon, it isn't just one long beam with crit or without, it's every tick that is making contact is getting its own crit roll just for that tick. If you're firing off a machine gun, it's sending ten rounds per second and each of them gets a crit roll. And that's why you get better crit performance from weapons that do small amounts of damage very rapidly. With a big weapon where you get one shot every few seconds and maybe it's a big crit or maybe it's not, a missed shot is a missed crit chance and it's a huge loss to sustained dps. A rapid fire weapon's crits are spread out as more of an average dps increase that goes up and down as you keep your crosshairs on target. So regardless of how many hardpoints you're having your weapon take up - MGA's vs MG's, the important factor is how many bullets they're spewing, and also if those bullets have higher crit percentage chances and crit damage multipliers the way MG's and LBX's do.

im aware of how crit rolls work. its one crit roll per interval per weapon. there are no bullets, its hitscan, the bullets are just an effect. every tick you get a ray cast, and if that hits a component then it applies damage and does a crit roll on it. if you got 12 guns hitting thats 12 separate ray cats and 12 separate dice rolls.

the mgas is an alternative to hardpoint inflation. so instead of a piranha having 12 hardpoints it has 4, and mounts mga3s giving it the same base dps. but each mga only casts one ray for the entire cluster and thus only does 4 rolls per tick rather than12. crit rolls not only do more damage but they also chew on internals. a piranha can often crit the engine before the torso structure goes cherry, and that, not the base dps is what makes it dangerous.

[pbiggz]

LordNothing, on 22 August 2023 - 10:51 AM, said:

im aware of how crit rolls work. its one crit roll per interval per weapon. there are no bullets, its hitscan, the bullets are just an effect. every tick you get a ray cast, and if that hits a component then it applies damage and does a crit roll on it. if you got 12 guns hitting thats 12 separate ray cats and 12 separate dice rolls.

the mgas is an alternative to hardpoint inflation. so instead of a piranha having 12 hardpoints it has 4, and mounts mga3s giving it the same base dps. but each mga only casts one ray for the entire cluster and thus only does 4 rolls per tick rather than12. crit rolls not only do more damage but they also chew on internals. a piranha can often crit the engine before the torso structure goes cherry, and that, not the base dps is what makes it dangerous.

I dont think a lot of people realize machine guns are hitscan.

[Marcel Leander]

LordNothing, on 22 August 2023 - 10:51 AM, said:

im aware of how crit rolls work. its one crit roll per interval per weapon. there are no bullets, its hitscan, the bullets are just an effect. every tick you get a ray cast, and if that hits a component then it applies damage and does a crit roll on it. if you got 12 guns hitting thats 12 separate ray cats and 12 separate dice rolls.

I understand that MG's are calculated by hitscan, which is why I brought up beam weapons, but the ticks are handled as if they were individual rounds so the end result is effectively the same. For a common MG doing 1dps, it's a tick of 0.1 second doing 0.1 damage, replicating the effect of a bullet. If I have 3 MG's each getting a crit roll every 0.1 second and the ones that roll successfully only add a crit multiplier to that individual weapon's 0.1 damage, or alternatively I have an equivalent MGA3 array doing 0.3 damage every tick of 0.1 second and applying the crit multiplier to the whole 0.3 damage, you end up with the same average damage over time. Because you divided the chance of crits by three but multiplied the damage of crits by three. It just equals out.

[LordNothing]

Marcel Leander, on 22 August 2023 - 06:45 PM, said:

I understand that MG's are calculated by hitscan, which is why I brought up beam weapons, but the ticks are handled as if they were individual rounds so the end result is effectively the same. For a common MG doing 1dps, it's a tick of 0.1 second doing 0.1 damage, replicating the effect of a bullet. If I have 3 MG's each getting a crit roll every 0.1 second and the ones that roll successfully only add a crit multiplier to that individual weapon's 0.1 damage, or alternatively I have an equivalent MGA3 array doing 0.3 damage every tick of 0.1 second and applying the crit multiplier to the whole 0.3 damage, you end up with the same average damage over time. Because you divided the chance of crits by three but multiplied the damage of crits by three. It just equals out.

no rule says the mgas and stand alone mgs need to have the same crit numbers. mgas could invoke diminishing returns.

[Tywren]

For everyone hating, OP is right MG are busted as hell! When you can pay 2.5 tons for 10 DPS, pinpoint, hit scan, at 0 heat that's insane, even with the short range taken into account. I speak from experience, I've had 6 kill, 3 KMDD matches with my Artic Cheetah MG boat.

Now as for a solution, how about changing it from pinpoint to a damage cone, and divide the damage between all locations in the cone?