325 replies to this topic

[JumpingHunter]

Void Angel, on 01 September 2023 - 03:46 PM, said:

Heheh. So. Many. Problems:

That's not even the worst bit I've seen, but I can't find "Jenner Football" on Youtube any more.

Despite all the problems with that, for me as a player who never saw that before it looks so damn hillarious, also the mechs getting up animation is very good looking!

And judging by the video, i think problems with melee damage would have been able to be fixed if mechs didn't fall over so easily, pretty much how melee works in Mechwarrior 5 (dont remember if it's a mod or not). And in general it would just make the game much more in-depth if you could kick some annoying piranhas in their butt for coming too close and abusing their small size and big mech's legs. That would make a good portion of funny moments!

[JumpingHunter]

martian, on 01 September 2023 - 06:03 AM, said:

Physical attacks were possible in MWO only for a short period (and I guess that the majority of the currently active playerbase has not experienced physical attacks in MWO) and very probably they will not be added. Also, when those physical attacks were possible, they created a lot of problems.

I would argue that despite all the problems that the melee has created in early MWO it could have been fixed in one way or another, and at the same time it would fix a lot of arguable and discussed issues with light mechs (if so much people actually do argue about that, it means that there're at least some problems with light mechs balance). Assaults or Heavies being able to kick or slap lights to show them their place when they start abusing their legs and big size again would be a good thing, because it would not just be a "screw you specifically" option against light mechs, but a general mechanic applicable in any combat scenarios. I would have love to see some sort of brawling Atlas going insane and beating the sh!t out of few hostiles on battlefield, or a charger literally charging in someone and causing the snowball of mechs.

[martian]

JumpingHunter, on 03 September 2023 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yep, i screwed up with piranha quirks, not gonna lie, but if there is so many people who tell that piranha is overarmored, and if from my personal experience i can't reliably damage it and other faster lights even when my shots connect, then there is definitely something wrong with either it's hitboxex or it's armor. Trust me, there were far less times where i actually DID get any results from direct Heavy Gauss, Heavy PPC or laser array precisely tracked burn on piranha than times when i didn't deal any significant damage to it. I don't know if it's the hitboxes or if it is an armor that makes it so durable and undamagable, but if i don't have perfect ping around 20-30 at worst (which is extremely rare with PGI servers location) i tend to see my shots deal either no damage or severely reduced damage if it's a laser burn, no matter how precisely i shoot. If you tell me that the hitboxes being broken or abused to this level is viable way to balance out the mech, then i dont even know what is not a viable way to balance mechs out.

As for piloting lights, i own 3 of them, and i pilot them sometimes - stealth and NARC raven, Wolfhound and Panther. Yes, i never did pilot mechs like piranha or mist lynx or arctic cheetah, but i've seen enough of them and fought enough of them in my experience to know how them feel from outside their cockpit.

Try it.

Buy PIR-1 Piranha (it costs 3 721 292 C-Bills, a half of that sum when it is on sale) and use for a month exclusively. Then you will know firsthand if the Piranha's armor is broken, MGs are OP, etc.

JumpingHunter, on 03 September 2023 - 02:17 AM, said:

And about these consumables i made up - i only made an examples of things that light mechs would be very good at doing, and the fact that PGI zealously refuse to add any more depth in game process of MWO,

It is pointless to talk about the things that have never been in MWO and probably never will be in MWO.

JumpingHunter, on 03 September 2023 - 02:17 AM, said:

combined with ongoing streak of unnecessary light mechs buffs, shows why exacly MWO feels stale sometimes, especially when you get 5 or 10 loses in a row because there's FP light mech pilots everywhere running in packs of 4-6 and killing everything with no losses to their numbers.

As I said, buy the Piranha and try how easy it is to "kill everything with no losses."

JumpingHunter, on 03 September 2023 - 02:37 AM, said:

I would argue that despite all the problems that the melee has created in early MWO it could have been fixed in one way or another, and at the same time it would fix a lot of arguable and discussed issues with light mechs (if so much people actually do argue about that, it means that there're at least some problems with light mechs balance). Assaults or Heavies being able to kick or slap lights to show them their place when they start abusing their legs and big size again would be a good thing, because it would not just be a "screw you specifically" option against light mechs, but a general mechanic applicable in any combat scenarios. I would have love to see some sort of brawling Atlas going insane and beating the sh!t out of few hostiles on battlefield, or a charger literally charging in someone and causing the snowball of mechs.

That train departed ten years ago. Adding various physical attacks now would require adding new movement animations for 120 'Mechs in the game - and that would be something, what PGI with its limited resources could hardly manage.

Also, MWO and MW5:Mercs both use different game engines.

[Void Angel]

People who claim that Lights can't be damaged are almost never Light pilots. Hit registration errors do occur, but they're not a significant damage loss. To give the devil his due, a known instance of hitreg issues (the Raven) was caused by hitboxes overlapping during animation - it caused the game engine to become confused as to where the damage landed, sometimes failing to assign the hit at all. That got fixed years and years ago, though; it's possible that some cases still occur, or that latency and packet loss cost people damage... but most of the times I see people whine about hit registration in a game, either they're using lasers or burst-fire weapons that spread damage all over the target, or I watch them miss, and they still claim hit registration errors. Meanwhile, I plaster the 'mech with an AC/20, and it folds: "huh; hitreg works for me..."

PGI tried for years to implement physical attacks in Cryengine. Didn't work for them with the way the rest of the game works - it was tied to the broken collision system, and and Crytek didn't give them much support a lot of ways. Some critics appointed themselves as backseat programmers - claiming that any good devs could have made it work easily, whilst farting rainbows and sunshine - but such arrogant Internet Experts are a dime a dozen; talk is cheap, and none of them I saw ever applied to PGI.

[Der Geisterbaer]

JumpingHunter, on 29 August 2023 - 01:00 PM, said:

Your claims that lights being comparable with heavies and assaults by firepower and armor while also being 2-3 times faster and having hitreg screwed 50 times over on them is completely ok in FPS game are also useless too then.

~hmmm~ Would you care to provide citations of any "claims" that I allegedly made with regards to Lights being "comparable" to heavies and assaults? Then show me any "claims" about Lights that I made where hit teg was involved. Once you've done that we can talk about the uselessness of said claims again. Prediction: You will fail just as you failed with these strawman accussations.

JumpingHunter, on 29 August 2023 - 01:00 PM, said:

Here is a useful suggestion - make a tonnage limit for the teams and let players pick mechs after the map is selected, like it is in Faction Play, and THEN make light mechs actually be not overbuffed and closer to their canonical design, and then give them, lets say, 2 times more XP and CBills rewards for everything, like how frontline Landsknechts got 2 times more money for being at the risk all the time.

Let's ignore the fact that your suggestion is entirely unrelated to everything I commented on so far. Let's also ignore the fact that you are now asking a complete overhaul of this game's design and let's just look at what you are claiming (again without proof): Lights are allegedly "overbuffed" yet going by the actual statistics they are still the least played weight class with the lowest average damage/match score ratings ... and your suggestion is to pay them with more (in the long term useless) XP and C-Bills. I hate to break it to you but you suck at game design even more than you suck at fighting in or against light mechs.

JumpingHunter, on 29 August 2023 - 01:00 PM, said:

Lights were supposed to be a hard mode in fighting,

Care to provide any relevant design document for either MW:O or the original Battletech that says that Lights "were supposed to be the hard mode in fighting"? Or is that just more of the same made up nonsense like the allegedly hyper-quirked PIR-1?

JumpingHunter, on 29 August 2023 - 01:00 PM, said:

so why not make them generously payed hard mode, instead of overbuffing them over any common sense.

I guess now is as good as any other time to introduce you to a piece of wisdom: Do not appeal to common sense ... for it is neither common nor does it actually make sense.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 04 September 2023 - 07:46 AM.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 31 August 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

One other key ability which is missing from MWO that technically balances the Light vs Assault circle-jerk fight that everyone hates so much, is the ability for the Assault 'mech to reach out and slap the light 'mech. Give it a good drop-kick and push it back out into effective weapons range. Stick out a leg, trip it, and then blast it in the back as it runs by.

Things that humanoid robots should be able to do, if they're really mimicking human movement, but which requires a LOT more input controls than we have on a computer, some of which are straight up fictional.

unfortunatly that may be harder to code, though we do have alot of weapons that are Useless at 0 meters (until the last patch) but we still have ATMs that are useless at 0 meters, which is a reason i don't typically use them.

Edited by KursedVixen, 04 September 2023 - 07:10 AM.

[nopempele]

C337Skymaster, on 31 August 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

the Light vs Assault circle-jerk fight that everyone hates so much

When did that become an issue? I for one love this. And no, I am not good enough at lights to properly do this, but I think it is a totally legit move.

The only assaults which are prone to this strategy are lame C-Gauss/ERPPC Direwolves and such, with pilots of those tending to ignore the team completely, hug the map border/high points and see their frag count go up from a safe distance of 1+ km. I would not shed a tear for them and lights are a proper counter to such fun-killing M_E_T_A exploitation.

Ignoring the team? Get punished.

Also, not sure about other players, but I usually play lights/medium solely for the freedom of maneuver. This is crucially important if you play with a bunch of random people of random skill (as opposed to say premade teams on VoIP). With assaults you usually do no have an option to disengage, the cost of error can be fatal and your calls for help are largely ignored by PUGs. But this has nothing to do with the game balance.

Edited by nopempele, 04 September 2023 - 08:23 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

Reason #1 that light 'mechs are the least played 'mechs in the game: they are the least numerous 'mechs in the game.

Try to actually prove that claim because ...

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

If every 'mech received exactly the same quantity of playtime, lights would be the least played 'mechs in the game, because there are the least number of them, and by a substantial margin.

... this is just an assertion - that while at least logically consistent - hinges on one very particular premise: Lights - and for that matter all weight classes - being played with an equal amount of playtime. For that premise to work it would require that all weight classes are equally "well liked" / "powerful" in every regard because otherwise you cannot expect an equal amount of time spent among them (on average).

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

So Lights can't help but be played the least, even with the ever elusive "perfect balance" achieved.

But in that hypothetical situation they would still be exppected to have average match scores / damage scores as the other weight classes ... which by all available data they don't. Against Mediums and Heavies their scores have to artificially inflated by about 10% and against assaults even 15% to make them "comparable". That's not just "margin of error" that's "significant" and in direct contrast of all claims being made that Lights are "too powerful" / "overpowered" or whatever other ill-informed label some people want to apply.

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

As for lowest average damage: I feel as though that's averaging Tier 5 with Tier 1. In Tier 4 where I am, and Tier 3, where I've been, and Tier 1, where I was before the PSR reset, Lights frequently outperform assaults for raw damage numbers. Overall, apart from your one or two meta outliers (8x LBX/2 DWF, for example), Assaults tend to be the least damage dealing 'mechs in most of the matches I play.

And you just started out reasonably well just to drop the ball with anecdotal evidence that is additionally clouded by rampant confirmation bias

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

In the words of everyone's favorite 'mech combat trainer: "In battlemech combat, speed is life. You go slow, you die". Tier 5 is the home of everyone learning the game who may have never played any previous MechWarrior title, before. It's the home of everyone who's taking in the sights and seeing what's what, learning their way around, etc. And thus, Tier 5 is the home of the light 'mechs that stand still and stare while they line up a shot.

Let's just say that whoever this allegedly "favorite mech combat trainer" is supposed to be: This statement is ignorant of the fact that Tier 5 also includes "experienced" players that - for better or for worse - do belong there and still get deleted in their Lights without "standing still and stare while they line up a shot".

But hey, let's not stop here with the fallacies but instead ..

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

Conversely, most Tier 1 light 'mech pilots are capable of using their 'mech's size, speed, and hitreg issues to prevent themselves from taking any damage or losing any components, internal or external.

... go with a non-sequitur and gish-galloping by adding more and more claims about the alleged but unproven super-powers of Lights and then top the entire thing off with ..

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

I have personally seen a Flea get 1500+ dmg in QP, and have heard of one achieving 1900 dmg in QP.

... yet another instance of useless anecdotal evidence. But just for the fun of it: How often did you see an assault break those 1000 or 1500 points of damage and how often have you heard of one breaking the 2000 points of damage barrier? Going by my own stictly anecdotal experience: About 200 to 300 times more often

C337Skymaster, on 29 August 2023 - 04:57 PM, said:

For these reasons, I don't especially trust the statistics in either Tier 1 or Tier 5 to be wholly representative of the 'mech, so much as they're representative of the pilots in those tiers, and unless you can give statistics which only cover Tiers 2, 3, and 4, I'm going to be suspicious of the results, "average" or not. (The median statistic might be more representative than the mean, because if we've got 100 pilots in Tier 5 for every one pilot in Tier 1, it's going to skew the results down).

Well done, telling me that you don't understand statistics without saying that you don't understand statistics and going with the old "I don't trust statistics that I haven't forged myself". I'll put it this way: The publically available data (be it here or on sites like Jarl's) does not support anything you have claimed.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 04 September 2023 - 08:11 AM.

[Void Angel]

Der Geisterbaer, on 04 September 2023 - 08:10 AM, said:

Let's just say that whoever this allegedly "favorite mech combat trainer" is supposed to be: This statement is ignorant of the fact that Tier 5 also includes "experienced" players that - for better or for worse - do belong there and still get deleted in their Lights without "standing still and stare while they line up a shot".

It's a quote from Unther, an NPC in Mechwarrior 2.

[C337Skymaster]

So my main point, that got lost in my tendency to ramble, is that trying to claim "lights are underpowered because they're the least played weight class in the game" is also using a metric which cannot be asserted, because they're the least represented 'mechs in the game, so even if they weren't underpowered, they'd still be least played.

I'll back off every other assertion, but I'm sticking to that one: claiming that their being least played is evidence of their being weak is failing to account for their comparable dearth of options.

Just for the sake of Void Angel's curiosity: I rarely see 1000+ damage numbers outside of Faction. Seeing anything above 1200, even then, is once-a-year, at best. Thus seeing a Flea get 1500 was testament to the pilot, and proof (to me) that they can perform exceptionally well when in the hands of a skilled pilot, and their shortcomings aren't necessarily the fault of the 'mech, but the lack of pilot specialization and expertise.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 04 September 2023 - 07:53 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

nopempele, on 04 September 2023 - 08:01 AM, said:

When did that become an issue? I for one love this. And no, I am not good enough at lights to properly do this, but I think it is a totally legit move.

The only assaults which are prone to this strategy are lame C-Gauss/ERPPC Direwolves and such, with pilots of those tending to ignore the team completely, hug the map border/high points and see their frag count go up from a safe distance of 1+ km. I would not shed a tear for them and lights are a proper counter to such fun-killing M_E_T_A exploitation.

Ignoring the team? Get punished.

Also, not sure about other players, but I usually play lights/medium solely for the freedom of maneuver. This is crucially important if you play with a bunch of random people of random skill (as opposed to say premade teams on VoIP). With assaults you usually do no have an option to disengage, the cost of error can be fatal and your calls for help are largely ignored by PUGs. But this has nothing to do with the game balance.

It's an issue for every single assault pilot who's ever had some tiny insect running circles around them faster than they can turn to track the target, forcing them to reverse their turn (which, if the light pilot is on their game and has a fast enough 'mech, they can often match, to stay out of the line of fire). Having friends nearby with anything other than streaks can often be useless, too, because if the light 'mech is moving fast enough, it can be hard to put effective damage on it. Especially without damaging the slow assault that it's trying to kill.

If the assault has slow-loading PPFLD weapons (IS AC/20's, for example), it can be rewarding to land a shot on a leg, but it can be pure luck as to whether you'll hit the 'mech at all, what with range, convergence, hitreg, ping, muscular response from a finger, and a whole host of other factors.

Can you tell which 'mech I'm usually in in these situations? I play Lights, too, but mostly Adders, Kit Foxes, and Ravens: more reliant on positioning and firepower, and less on twitchy, speedy jerking around (I can't see what's on my screen when I'm moving like that, let alone shoot anything, but I'm well aware that there are pilots who can, and extremely effectively, at that).

[Void Angel]

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

So my main point, that got lost in my tendency to ramble, is that trying to claim "lights are underpowered because they're the least played weight class in the game" is also using a metric which cannot be asserted, because they're the least represented 'mechs in the game, so even if they weren't underpowered, they'd still be least played.

I'll back off every other assertion, but I'm sticking to that one: claiming that their being least played is evidence of their being weak is failing to account for their comparable dearth of options.

Once the frack again: the available number of chassis has nothing to do with how likely people are to play the weight class in the long run. People are not picking 'mechs out of their stable to play with a random number generator! They are not using a dart board and blindfold, or reading tea leaves while they deal out the Tarot deck - they are playing 'mechs based on what they enjoy playing, and for the vast majority of players they are trying to play what works. This will be the case if they have only one fracking Light 'mech, or if they have bought the entire possible array of Battlemechs. It will also be the case if they are making decisions based on sentimental value or roleplaying - just as I drag out my Locust from time to time to try and make it work.

I have explained all of this to you above, and you just... ignored it. But ignoring the truth doesn't make it go away.

Your Flea's unicorn match is a testament to the skill of the Flea's pilot, true. It's also a testament to the skill of every other pilot on the both teams, because Fleas aren't that hard to murder with heavy guns, and 1500 damage is a simply insane amount of damage when you factor in the possible durability involved. For your typical well-built Atlas, all three torsos together is only 519 damage. Looking at it another way, for any Flea that's not ammo-dependent, the highest sustained dps is probably the FLE-17, at 6.6 dps. That's 220.6 seconds of active combat at less than 185m from the enemy team, not including time to cool down and reposition - and nobody just shot this guy? Forget that you're basing a sweeping misconception of balance on an event you claim might happen once a year- you're completely misunderstanding what happened in your own anecdotal story about this match... for which you have not provided a screenshot, by the way.

You are talking to a pilot with extensive esperience and expertise playing fast combat Lights. When the locust first came out, I had a guy tell me I was the first time he was ever scared of one (possibly, it was the last time, too .) Currently there are only a few chassis that are even effective to play against skilled players, and it's a hard row to hoe. Those chassis can be successful, especially if the pilot has a microphone and uses it to relay enemy positions and activities, but it's still harder than just slapping down a Marauder or something and dealing consistent damage. So, the weight class isn't useless, but it's underplayed for a reason - and a wrong answer in misapplied statistics isn't one of your options.

[Void Angel]

Edit:

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 08:04 PM, said:

[bolding added for emphasis]
It's an issue for every single assault pilot who's ever had some tiny insect running circles around them faster than they can turn to track the target, forcing them to reverse their turn (which, if the light pilot is on their game and has a fast enough 'mech, they can often match, to stay out of the line of fire). Having friends nearby with anything other than streaks can often be useless, too, because if the light 'mech is moving fast enough, it can be hard to put effective damage on it. Especially without damaging the slow assault that it's trying to kill.

If the assault has slow-loading PPFLD weapons (IS AC/20's, for example), it can be rewarding to land a shot on a leg, but it can be pure luck as to whether you'll hit the 'mech at all, what with range, convergence, hitreg, ping, muscular response from a finger, and a whole host of other factors.

Can you tell which 'mech I'm usually in in these situations? I play Lights, too, but mostly Adders, Kit Foxes, and Ravens: more reliant on positioning and firepower, and less on twitchy, speedy jerking around (I can't see what's on my screen when I'm moving like that, let alone shoot anything, but I'm well aware that there are pilots who can, and extremely effectively, at that).

My dude. You just declared yourself an underskilled player. I mean, that sounds harsh, but there's no kinder (and several less kind) way to put it. It's not "luck" if you hit the enemy that you are aiming at. People do it all the time! The biggest part of learning to play a Light properly is to avoid giving people good shots at you - and running around an Assault in a Newbie Strafe isn't one of those methods. You should have no trouble hitting a Light that's doing this.

"But Void Angel, how do I do that? They're moving so fast!"

Well, I'm glad you asked! There's a very useful concept here called a "tangent." In math, that's a line drawn from a point on a circle that's perpendicular to a radius drawn to that point. A 'mech engaging a circling Light along a tangent will have a zero-deflection shot during that window, trivializing the Light's velocity in respect to weapon projectile speeds for most weapon systems. In Mechwarrior English that means, "when you see a Light death circling an Assault, aim at the outside of the circle and his speed won't matter for most guns."

But there's a bigger problem here, and I hope you can overcome it: you're reporting way more trouble than you should be having here, both in tracking Lights to hit them, and in tracking what's going on when you play a fast-moving Light. If the problem is your base reflexes, well, bad news: youmight be in trouble compared to most people there. But it could also be a matter of your FPS: I had a buddy who bought a "computer" with an integrated graphics "card" on it instead of springing for a real graphics board. He blasted my Spider in the back with like 4 ERPPCs (this was a while back...) leaving a couple of smoking legs behind, because his frame rate was tanking in close combat. Same could be happening to you; run your graphics card's overlay and check your fps when stuff is flying around on-screen close to you.

Another option is cognition bias, specifically learned helplessness. If you think you can't hit Lights effectively, it can stop you from practicing the skills necessary to get it done - like getting a feel for your AC/20's travel time, and "not pulling the trigger when your teammate is behind the target." If you're suffering from slower than average reflexes and hand-eye coordination, it may take you longer to learn these skills, but unless you've got MS or something, it can be done.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 September 2023 - 01:38 PM.

[KursedVixen]

nopempele, on 04 September 2023 - 08:01 AM, said:

When did that become an issue? I for one love this. And no, I am not good enough at lights to properly do this, but I think it is a totally legit move.

The only assaults which are prone to this strategy are lame C-Gauss/ERPPC Direwolves and such, with pilots of those tending to ignore the team completely, hug the map border/high points and see their frag count go up from a safe distance of 1+ km. I would not shed a tear for them and lights are a proper counter to such fun-killing M_E_T_A exploitation.

Ignoring the team? Get punished.

Also, not sure about other players, but I usually play lights/medium solely for the freedom of maneuver. This is crucially important if you play with a bunch of random people of random skill (as opposed to say premade teams on VoIP). With assaults you usually do no have an option to disengage, the cost of error can be fatal and your calls for help are largely ignored by PUGs. But this has nothing to do with the game balance.

yeah i call for help all the time and i never get help meanwhile i always get dogpiled by two mechs on the other team...

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 08:04 PM, said:

It's an issue for every single assault pilot who's ever had some tiny insect running circles around them faster than they can turn to track the target, forcing them to reverse their turn (which, if the light pilot is on their game and has a fast enough 'mech, they can often match, to stay out of the line of fire). Having friends nearby with anything other than streaks can often be useless, too, because if the light 'mech is moving fast enough, it can be hard to put effective damage on it. Especially without damaging the slow assault that it's trying to kill.

If the assault has slow-loading PPFLD weapons (IS AC/20's, for example), it can be rewarding to land a shot on a leg, but it can be pure luck as to whether you'll hit the 'mech at all, what with range, convergence, hitreg, ping, muscular response from a finger, and a whole host of other factors.

Can you tell which 'mech I'm usually in in these situations? I play Lights, too, but mostly Adders, Kit Foxes, and Ravens: more reliant on positioning and firepower, and less on twitchy, speedy jerking around (I can't see what's on my screen when I'm moving like that, let alone shoot anything, but I'm well aware that there are pilots who can, and extremely effectively, at that).

in the right speedy light mech i can do it ex, piranha , arctic cheetah, jenner IIC and such.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Void Angel, on 04 September 2023 - 06:51 PM, said:

It's a quote from Unther, an NPC in Mechwarrior 2.

So it would appear that the guy indeed wasn't my "favourite mech combat trainer" because I barely remember the name and certainly not the statement despite spending several hundreds of hours on that game (but mainly in its expansion Ghostbear Legacy)

************************************************************

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

So my main point, that got lost in my tendency to ramble, is that trying to claim "lights are underpowered because they're the least played weight class in the game" is also using a metric which cannot be asserted, because they're the least represented 'mechs in the game, so even if they weren't underpowered, they'd still be least played.

And that point got "lost" for simple reasons:

• You are actually strawmaning the original argument that said that despite allegedly being overpowered they are the least played and have the lowest average match scores / damage per match. So not only did you reverse the part about relative power from a positive to a negative but also simply ignored "50%" of the actual argument. The thing you claim cannot be asserted was never asserted to begin with.
  
• Your strawman is additionally built upon an entirely incorrect premise of its own that goes into special case pleading: Your stipulation only works in the unrealistic edge case of identical power levels in conjunction with players not having any actual preferences and thus randomly choosing mechs across all weight classes at any given time. The fact of the matter however is that players choose particular mechs for various reasons and relative power is just one of them (although a very influential one). And their statistically evidenced weakness is what leads to them being chosen less often.

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

I'll back off every other assertion, but I'm sticking to that one: claiming that their being least played is evidence of their being weak is failing to account for their comparable dearth of options.

And you'll die a useless death on that hill because your own assertion is far more lacking than this misrepresentation of the actual argument.

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

Just for the sake of Void Angel's curiosity: I rarely see 1000+ damage numbers outside of Faction.

I on the other hand see 1000+ damage quite regularly in QP but certainly not in a majority comming from Lights.

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

Seeing anything above 1200, even then, is once-a-year, at best.

Now I'm kind of "sorry" that I don't screenshot my own matches these days anymore ... because - in the absence of screenshots you may want to believe it or not - I certainly managed to pull off 1200 matches in a Light twice already this year and my stats certainly and correctly state that I'm not really a "good pilot". Interestingly enough the last one happened this Monday on Alpine and I have yet to even show up on the leaderboards for this month.

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

Thus seeing a Flea get 1500 was testament to the pilot,

While such a result certainly is a "testament to the pilot" it is also a "testament" to various parameters all aligning in favour of said pilot:

• opponents not properly shooting / hitting the mark thus giving ...
  
• ... the flea the opportunity to spread large numbers of damage accross multiple hit locations before actually getting a kill all while ...
  
• ... his team mates didn't score hits / kills themselves either.

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

and proof (to me) that they can perform exceptionally well when in the hands of a skilled pilot,

And your "proof" is still flawed due to how you ignored additional parameters and thereby is somewhere between a systematically flawed conclusion and a non-sequitur. And from here ...

C337Skymaster, on 04 September 2023 - 07:52 PM, said:

and their shortcomings aren't necessarily the fault of the 'mech, but the lack of pilot specialization and expertise.

... you just go deeper into the non-sequitur area.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 06 September 2023 - 08:16 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

So when are HAG's getting nerfed?