119 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Typhlon, on 27 August 2023 - 07:04 PM, said:

an extremely easy to catch (and fix) bug

I'd argue it isn't actually a bug because this isn't an issue with the code, it is more akin to misconfiguration which is much harder to catch with any sort of testing/automation, especially if it isn't a breaking misconfiguration (ie one that surfaces as an error in the code). Not arguing about QA, but let's be honest, comp in MWO has been a joke for several years so I'm definitely not shocked that PGI isn't pulling out the stops for this, like Meep Meep said, this game isn't pulling the number (comp or casual) to justify something like that for something that isn't even gamebreaking. At worst it shifts the meta for a month, at best a few mechs get some benefit out of it and has negligible impact on the game. This feels less impactful than when snubnose were over-buffed for a time and not remotely near a LRMageddon type of event (which actually impacted player counts)

[KursedVixen]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 07:09 PM, said:

Not trying to be snarky but isn't that more or less par for the course for clan vomit builds? I mean heavens forbid IS start to close the clan vomit gap in a meaningful way.

Rac 2 can do 100+ damage without jamming if someone stands in front of it long enough imagine what RAC 5 can do...

[Typhlon]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 07:09 PM, said:

Not trying to be snarky but isn't that more or less par for the course for clan vomit builds? I mean heavens forbid IS start to close the clan vomit gap in a meaningful way.

I like binaries for their potential to level out the lasvom gap, since IS vom has been Garbage in comparison, but they literally rendered regular larges obsolete especially with the bug. 6LLs but three tons lighter and no HSL. Goofy. I'd rather they just move away from the trend of "insane alpha strikes" because it's making the meta super stale and is hyper punishing for lower skill players, but w/e. I mean, the lasvom gap is much smaller now but HAG-vomit can reach OVER 110 alpha, and Gausszilla/SR can run HAG-120. It's gotten to the point of being ridiculous.

Again, I'm an IS main, I only use clans to play with my unit and to have certain mechs which are good for comp. Binaries (and the HSL bug, though not the T-Comp) benefit me, but it's unhealthy for the game to have these stupid errors with every patch that drops.

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'm not even going to get into my 'thing' with this one dev but yeah...

Yeah highkey I have no idea why people are so desperate to defend him lmao, even with what limited knowledge I have. Much less why people don't seem to even bat an eye that a player of the game is able to just sort of. Put stuff in the game without oversight or accountability. Like. That's just not good lol, there are shitloads of DISCORD mods who abuse their position ffs

Edited by Typhlon, 27 August 2023 - 07:39 PM.

[Meep Meep]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 07:20 PM, said:

Rac 2 can do 100+ damage without jamming if someone stands in front of it long enough imagine what RAC 5 can do...

Rac isn't vomit though. It's facetime. Vomit is a sudden burst of damage.

[KursedVixen]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 07:30 PM, said:

Rac isn't vomit though. It's facetime. Vomit is a sudden burst of damage.

there is still a duration.... and clan lasers tend to have longer durations which means you rarely get full damage out of clan lasers on moving mechs.... only a fraction of it. Unless it's a small or medium or micro pulse.

Edited by KursedVixen, 27 August 2023 - 07:46 PM.

[Meep Meep]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 07:46 PM, said:

there is still a duration.... and clan lasers tend to have longer durations which means you rarely get full damage out of clan lasers on moving mechs.... only a fraction of it. Unless it's a small or medium or micro pulse.

What tier? Because in tier 3 and higher clan vomit players tend to be able to aim.

[Typhlon]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 05:56 PM, said:

Name me a mech that is overperforming with them?

Annihilator 1P has a goofy *** build for it with crazy good heat management, I've also got a 79 alpha gauss vomit Corsair with good heat and extremely good survivability and excellent mounts, way more sustainable than the Stalker. There aren't many mechs that can abuse it, but some can, and either way the "level of brokenness" isn't the main point, as I keep reiterating - the point is that PGI's QA has been extremely lacking and it's bad, and there is a genuine potential that this doesn't get fixed; again, clan MASC is openly broken, it's a known one-line fix, and yet they didn't bother - it's not a game-shattering bug, but it DOES give some mechs a very significant edge which is not accounted for in other parts of the balancing.

This is just more of the same PGI non-QA, and it's bad as-is, but if they don't get their **** together then who's to say that the NEXT bug isn't "Oop, gauss rifle has 200 internal explosion damage instead of 20" or "we meant to put small lasers to 3.5 damage but now it's 35." This ONE ERROR is not good, but I am far more concerned about PGI figuring out what basic QA looks like given that they don't do hotfixes than I am about the error in question being Binary HSL goofy mode or T-Comps not working for the new weapons.

[Meep Meep]

Typhlon, on 27 August 2023 - 07:58 PM, said:

Annihilator 1P has a goofy *** build for it with crazy good heat management, I've also got a 79 alpha gauss vomit Corsair with good heat and extremely good survivability and excellent mounts, way more sustainable than the Stalker.

So in your opinion are those builds better worse or on par with current clan meta vomit?

[Typhlon]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 07:46 PM, said:

there is still a duration.... and clan lasers tend to have longer durations which means you rarely get full damage out of clan lasers on moving mechs.... only a fraction of it. Unless it's a small or medium or micro pulse.

RAC/XPulse damage isn't real alpha because you need to stare for a long duration, whereas lasvom/gaussvom is extreme damage very quickly, requiring little exposure or facetime. I promise you that you will NEVER see a RAC or XPulse in comp, with the SOLE exception of an XPulse on a Locust 1V. But you'll see plenty of vomit - laser, gauss, or now HAG - because quick alpha is one of the most desirable things to have in the game.

Right now, I'm watching pug players get absolutely destroyed trying to use XPulses because in the first 2 seconds of a headon they might do 40 damage, but they eat almost 100 in turn straight to the CT from binary or hag vomit and instantly explode lol - facetime is Death in the current meta, and binaries being borked DOES contribute to higher alphas, rendering those weapons even worse.

For real, they dropped a no-upfront damage staring weapon into the game ALONGSIDE two weapons that DIRECTLY counter that playstyle. It's almost a joke, even before counting the HSL bug.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Typhlon, on 27 August 2023 - 07:58 PM, said:

the point is that PGI's QA has been extremely lacking and it's bad, and there is a genuine potential that this doesn't get fixed; again, clan MASC is openly broken, it's a known one-line fix, and yet they didn't bother - it's not a game-shattering bug, but it DOES give some mechs a very significant edge which is not accounted for in other parts of the balancing.

I've been dancing around this, but this game is pretty much a dead game. In this case I'm not trying to excuse them but get you to understand, they really don't care and attacking devs isn't the way to get your way, especially if it doesn't impact player counts in the short or long term. I highly doubt there is a significant enough of comp players that are upset about this to move the needle on any of that (and that's if it is as impactful to the meta as you say, regardless of whether the change is unintentional or not). However the slippery slope argument is a bit rough here though because a bigger mistake could have a much larger blast radius (which is why I keep bringing up LRMageddon) it will impact that player count and means quicker fix. Most tech teams (PGI included here) don't see all errors as equal because in all fairness it doesn't make business sense to. Level of impact matters when it comes to prioritization of effort, no one wants to spend all day and takes some servers down and cause disruption for something only 5 people have an issue with, nor does it even make good business sense. Not saying that only 5 people care about the issue, just threw out a number because the count of population that know and care is likely extremely low.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2023 - 08:12 PM.

[Typhlon]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

So in your opinion are those builds better worse or on par with current clan meta vomit?

Better, absolutely - good clan gaussvom (which is the meta for assaults, not regular lasvom) can still hit higher numbers than IS but with way less heat sustain, and also the mechs that can run good clan gaussvom have few to no survivability quirks (a la Deathstrike) whereas the Anni and Corsair both have both defensive AND offensive quirks, alongside similar (though still lesser) alpha, and the ability to put down far more damage before overheating. Clan HAG-vomit, however, still hits much harder (but with even less heat sustain, so you have to use cover more).

The mechs which are MEANT to be able to sustain big binary vomit (MAD-4A, STK-4N) have caveats - 4A is 100 tons and carries all of its secondaries in low slung arms, and is completely dead if it loses the RT whereas the Stalker has bad heat sustain and is very vulnerable to having its arms shot out since they are the highest part of the mech and have no durability quirks.

The mechs which benefit from the BUG (Anni, certain Corsairs, there are others but those are big ones) have the mounts to use their alpha reliably and carry their weapons in way more defendable torsos than the 4N, with far better quirks to boot. With only 2 Binaries, these builds are just okay. With 3, they are extremely punishing, especially over hills where the MAD-4A struggles, and while being far more heat sustainable and tougher to strip than the Stalker.

Edited by Typhlon, 27 August 2023 - 08:42 PM.

[Typhlon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2023 - 08:08 PM, said:

no one wants to spend all day and takes some servers down and cause disruption for something only 5 people have an issue with

They wouldn't need to take servers down at all if they just went into the mechlab and training ground for literally an hour, that's the point. I UNDERSTAND that they don't do hotfixes if not absolutely critical, and I get that. I have said that from close to the start. But if they DON'T do hotfixes, and KNOW they don't do hotfixes, then they should put the bare minimum effort into making sure that what they're adding/changing is working as intended.

The MASC thing is hard to catch, that's a very particular thing which even people who USE MASC might not consciously notice. The problem THERE is that they DO know it's broken. This has been in the game for a while now, they KNOW it is there. They COULD have fixed it in the August patch, but they didn't, and that is frankly a pathetic lack of effort when the fix is "move a single decimal over a single position" (and again, important to note another critical point here which is that the guy who made that typo is on record saying it was him and that he likes the way it performs on his mechs.)

The problem HERE, though, is that HSL is one of the easiest things to check in the whole game. "Do I get a warning when I put 3 on the mech? Yes? Good. Oh it's only when I do 4? Better change that number." Likewise, it's very easy to put a T-Comp on a mech and put it into the testing ground to make sure it's playing properly with the new beams. The fact that nobody thought to do either of those is indicative of the problem: not the lack of hotfixes, but the lack of basic QA in the first place.

And no, it's not a dead game. It continues to exist and get updates BECAUSE it is profitable. Again, owned by an international holding company: the game WOULD be shut down if it stopped being profitable. Thus, it is in their best interest to REMAIN profitable, by making sure what little content they add actually works, because the playerbase IS small and they could very quickly lose that profitability if they keep making stupid mistakes like this.

Edited by Typhlon, 27 August 2023 - 08:39 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Typhlon, on 27 August 2023 - 08:27 PM, said:

And no, it's not a dead game. It continues to exist and get updates BECAUSE it is profitable. Again, owned by an international holding company: the game WOULD be shut down if it stopped being profitable. Thus, it is in their best interest to REMAIN profitable, by making sure what little content they add actually works, because the playerbase IS small and they could very quickly lose that profitability if they keep making stupid mistakes like this.

I think you missed my point, player numbers have steadily declined for years, this isn't going to change that and them doing a hot fix isn't going to change that because the games issues go far beyond a small typo. Yes it is profitable sure, but at this point I think no one could play this game and people would still shell out money just to see their favorite mech in the mechlab so I think it is important to understand how it is profitable, health isn't just determined by a boolean like that. They haven't shown the willingness to fix much more critical issues or try to get a resurgence at this point, it has been minimal value content to milk those who continue to play for as long as they can before the well runs dry and they come out with MWO 2 electric boogaloo or MW6 (the MW5 Clan mech pack). And yes, the lack of QA is explained by the fact this game is dying. If this game actually had a healthy playerbase there is a higher likelihood there would be a hot fix, or at least an evaluation of the actual impact with this typo on the game, because even looking at the numbers, I don't see 3 BLC + Gauss being equivalent to Deathstrikes even with quirks, hell looking at the numbers 2 Gauss + 2 BLC seems better than even 3 BLC + Gauss.

Don't get me wrong, preventing this sort of thing from happening again would be what a developer of something not effectively in maintenance mode would do, but I'm in no illusions about this game and where it sits in the totem pole with PGI or their parent company. However I do think you are blowing the impact of this typo out of proportions.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2023 - 08:59 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Typhlon, on 27 August 2023 - 08:16 PM, said:

Better, absolutely - good clan gaussvom (which is the meta for assaults, not regular lasvom) can still hit higher numbers than IS but with way less heat sustain, and also the mechs that can run good clan gaussvom have few to no survivability quirks (a la Deathstrike) whereas the Anni and Corsair both have both defensive AND offensive quirks, alongside similar (though still lesser) alpha, and the ability to put down far more damage before overheating. Clan HAG-vomit, however, still hits much harder (but with even less heat sustain, so you have to use cover more).

I thought that was by design choice though? IS has better survivability and heat management for lower splat damage while clans get more range and splat but pay for it in heat management and survivability? Also don't most if not nearly all clan meta vomits sport ecm?

Edited by Meep Meep, 27 August 2023 - 08:45 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Meep Meep, on 27 August 2023 - 08:44 PM, said:

I thought that was by design choice though? IS has better survivability and heat management for lower splat damage while clans get more range and splat but pay for it in heat management and survivability? Also don't most if not nearly all clan meta vomits sport ecm?

Well unlike most other clan mechs most clan assautls that i know of that carry ECM carry in in the Center torso so you cannot omnipod swap it, and battlemechs like the marauder IIC and such well they're battlemechs the UV for example is a meta with no ecm, both lrm and Ac2/lbx2

I don't see them much but the ICe ferret ECM is locked behind MC

I was seeing someone earlier say that like 90% of clan Omnis have ECM because of omni swapping well not assaults and looking over the lights and heavies I'd say it's more like 60-70% (looking at it again it's even lower)

Clan light omnis that don't have ECM: Adder

Clan medium omnis with no ECM: ice ferret(I'm listing free mechs and without paying for MC or getting it from events you can't get the hero and even then it's stuck in the CT so no swapping),
Stormcrow, Nova, Viper, Huntsman,

clan heavy omnis with no ECM: Ebon jaguar, Linebacker, Hellfire, Nova Cat, Summoner , Timberwolf(untill the release of the BH)

Clan omni assaults without ECM: Executioner,Gargoyle, Warhawk almost all clan assault omnis cannot mount ECM the only two exceptions are the Dire and Blood Asp and even then it's on the CT so you can't swap that part...

so just counting omnis thats 1+4.5+5+3= so 13.5 out of all the omnis for clan cannot carry ecm or if you want to really be picky and not count the timber 14. (i get the half from the mc locked ice ferret.) Forgive me if my math is wrong...


So i think that's around a whole 1.5 of clan omnis can carry ECM.... i don't think that's 90% or anywhere near it.

Edited by KursedVixen, 27 August 2023 - 09:55 PM.

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 09:21 PM, said:

I'm listing free mechs and without paying for MC

Does this really matter? We just had event with tons of free MC and pick 4 free hero mechs and this Years MWOWC starts that gives you 10k MC with just playing, no need to win any games. After that we get X-mas socks again and free MC....
I have gained ~150k MC free just by playing the game so far, add that comp 10K to it soon.

MC mechs = free.

[Meep Meep]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 09:21 PM, said:

So i think that's around a whole 1.5 of clan omnis can carry ECM.... i don't think that's 90% or anywhere near it.

I said meta vomit mechs not all clan mechs. Nine times out of ten when I see a clan vomit its either a dire or someone with a dire buddy next to them. Now how many vomit IS mechs sport ecm?

Found one and its borderline vomit so can I get any more?

mad-9m

Edited by Meep Meep, 28 August 2023 - 04:44 AM.

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 28 August 2023 - 12:02 AM, said:

Does it really make you happy to take snippets of full pages to take things out of context?? Because that looks like what your doing, also i was not replying to you so.

Other part of your post was about mechs having ECM and this part was what you included in that list. I was just wondering why MC cost of a mech is reason enough for you not to include some mechs, I totally understand if you don't include legendary mechs and stuff that you can buy with real money only. So not snippets out of context IMO.

Public forums. If you don't want others replying to you even if message isn't directed at them then PM instead of forum post.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Most players seem to toss in the ECM Omni-pod regardless, if there is a variant that has the ECM Pod most likely its going to be slapped in there.

Even the Direwolf-C.. people still frankenmech the crap out of it to turn it into a B/C/P/UV, long as the ECM is there everything is cake.

People fear LRM's that much apparently.

Back to the Topic..

TiyOs made an honest mistake.

The problem is PGI not getting a hotfix out ASAP.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 27 August 2023 - 09:21 PM, said:

Clan medium omnis with no ECM: ice ferret(I'm listing free mechs and without paying for MC or getting it from events you can't get the hero and even then it's stuck in the CT so no swapping),

The Fenris has ECM in its alternate configuration P.




This Clan OmniMech can be bought for 10 633 549 .