149 replies to this topic

[C337Skymaster]

martian, on 28 September 2023 - 09:15 PM, said:

Unfortunately, all these things have some importance in the desktop game and partially in the single player campaign.

But if we expect to see the Kingfisher in MWO eventually, then the things would not look so good:

• the supposed durability of its SFE would not play a big role. You know how quickly assault 'Mechs die under the concentrated fire, SFE or not. And in 1-on-1 duel, I would put my money on that aforementioned Daishi, because its firepower (twice of the Kingfisher's) would probably give it the upper hand.
  
• As for its builds, in MWO people typically do not run stock builds, unless they have some pretty good reason for it.
  
• While it is true that the CGB uses the Kingfisher, many MWO players do not care about the BattleTech lore. MWO Quick Play teams are random mix of 'Mechs anyway - IS and Clan, various factions, various Clans, etc.

However, any possible CGB expansion pack is years away.

Personally, I would hope that selecting 'mechs for a Ghost Bear themed DLC to MW5 is done first and foremost with MW5 in mind, and with MWO as only a tertiary consideration, if at all. If anything added has to be portable to MWO, that kills off the Fire Moth, too, and completely negates any and all effort, work, and benefits of creating MW5 in a newer and more versatile game engine.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 29 September 2023 - 07:53 AM.

[martian]

C337Skymaster, on 29 September 2023 - 07:52 AM, said:

Personally, I would hope that selecting 'mechs for a Ghost Bear themed DLC to MW5 is done first and foremost with MW5 in mind, and with MWO as only a tertiary consideration, if at all. If anything added has to be portable to MWO, that kills off the Fire Moth, too, and completely negates any and all effort, work, and benefits of creating MW5 in a newer and more versatile game engine.

Well, considering the the primary principle behind the MWO economy is the question "Wanna buy a Mechpack?" , I think that PGI should consider the viability of a 'Mech in both MW5 and MWO. After all, they even offered the MW5 Hatchetman in MWO, just in case it would bring them some cash. If you invest your resources in designing a new 'Mech model for one game, why not offer it in the other game?

[Duke Falcon]

Okay, I not responsible for anything! Kids under 13, go to bed!
The place were in fire already... I just followed the steps of Devil's domilition dance...

Girls, always want more and more...
Corbett, martian!
Frankly, that debate were fine I must admit!

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Yes, I really think so, especially since you said: "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS"


But everything is okay, I told you that only some units of their respective toumans took the part.

You didn't tell me anything. I read it and understood it as I have when I read all those novels and sourcebooks. Only an idiot would assume I meant that EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR was fighting. Specific units from a particular Cluster from a particular Galaxy are fighting for *drum roll* a Clan.

So if the 9th Talon Cluster (The Falcon Lancers) of Gamma Galaxy fought against the 11th Battle Cluster (The Watchers) you know what that would be described as? Clan Jade Falcon fought Clan Wolf.

You're trying to be pedantic and falling flat.

Quote

The description of the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf does not mention no such thing. Sorry. You just brought another irrelevant tidbit.

I love when you can't refute a point I made, backed by the source material, you refer to it as irrelevant. Hilarious. It doesn't matter. Between you and the source material, I'll choose the source material.

Quote

When the book says directly that "the ultimate sin" is declaring the independence, then it really is. The book even clearly says that it was the Kerensky's intent to destroy the Wolverine before the use of a nuclear weapon. Note that the former Clan Wolf was Abjured even without using nuclear weapons.

And I quoted from the book directly stating that the plan was to just censure the Wolverines and bring them back into the fold UNTIL they detonated a nuke and wiped out a genetic repository. Once again, I'll take the source material over whatever you say.

Quote

You mean, like when you copypasted a ton of irrelevant stuff about what ilKhan Andrews did and did not, while the discussion revolves around the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf, i.e. things that happened many months before Andrews was elected?

You mean like when I showed a clear plot to have the Homeworld Clans absorb the Invader Clans to take their place that I backed up with the source material?

Quote

And you have still not answered this simple question: Has the Grand Council of the Clans the authority to Abjure a Clan?

I'll answer yours if you answer mine. Sure the GC has the authority to Abjure a Clan but it has to be done the PROPER way.

My turn now, does the novel Hour of the Wolf state that CLAN Wolf took Terra and became the ilClan?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 29 September 2023 - 03:13 PM.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 September 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

You didn't tell me anything. I read it and understood it as I have when I read all those novels and sourcebooks. Only an idiot would assume I meant that EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR was fighting. Specific units from a particular Cluster from a particular Galaxy are fighting for *drum roll* a Clan.

So if the 9th Talon Cluster (The Falcon Lancers) of Gamma Galaxy fought against the 11th Battle Cluster (The Watchers) you know what that would be described as? Clan Jade Falcon fought Clan Wolf.

You're trying to be pedantic and falling flat.

It was your own decision to write "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS."

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 September 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

I love when you can't refute a point I made, backed by the source material, you refer to it as irrelevant. Hilarious. It doesn't matter. Between you and the source material, I'll choose the source material.

Because it did not happen. Just go to the WoR, p.66 and tell me where it mentions any possible Absorption attempt in the description of the Abjuration of the Wolves.

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 September 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

And I quoted from the book directly stating that the plan was to just censure the Wolverines and bring them back into the fold UNTIL they detonated a nuke and wiped out a genetic repository. Once again, I'll take the source material over whatever you say.

The source material said that that "the ultimate sin" was "declaring the Wolverines indepence of the Clans". Even after two hundred fifty years this worst sin is still remembered as a prime example of un-Clanlike behaviour.

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 September 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

You mean like when I showed a clear plot to have the Homeworld Clans absorb the Invader Clans to take their place that I backed up with the source material?

Except that during the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf Andrews was not ilKhan yet - he was just a Khan of one Clan. During the Wolf Abjuration he held as much power as any other Clan Khan.

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 September 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

My turn now, does the novel Hour of the Wolf state that CLAN Wolf took Terra and became the ilClan?

As I told you before, the Abjured Clans can call themselves "Clan", but they are not. I believe that I mentioned the example of the Abjured Nova Cats that still referred about themselves as "Clan", even though they lost such status after their Abjuration.

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 September 2023 - 03:10 PM, said:

I'll answer yours if you answer mine. Sure the GC has the authority to Abjure a Clan but it has to be done the PROPER way.

Very nice. Finally we are getting somewhere.

The next question: Did the Grand Council of the Clans voted about the Abjuration of the Ward's Wolves?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

It was your own decision to write "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS."

Yes, to emphasize the number of different entities that were attacking Clan Wolf and failing to dislodge them (countering your point that they were weak) which according to the source material were, the Blood Spirits, Cloud Cobras, Steel Vipers, Star Adders and Ice Hellions. By my count, that's five. That's what the source material says. Again, only an idiot would think I meant EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR in those Clans were fighting those battles.

Quote

Because it did not happen. Just go to the WoR, p.66 and tell me where it mentions any possible Absorption attempt in the description of the Abjuration of the Wolves.

Quote

Unfortunately, the Blood Spirits, Steel Vipers, and Cloud Cobras thought the Coyotes were too slow in their execution and, in May 3071, all three Clans made various attacks to seize the remaining Wolf enclaves on Tranquil, Dagda, Glory, Eden, and Grant’s Station.

WoR page 67 - it's just one page down


They didn't HAVE to declare an Absorption because it wasn't official. This is a plot. For a Clan to be absorbed these things need to happen:

1. A motion is made for Absorption (The Clan in question has to be perceived as too weak to function and continue as it is)
2. The motion needs to be seconded.
3. Once seconded, the motion is on the floor to be voted on.
4. A vote is held
5. If the vote is successful
6. Clans bid amongst themselves for the right to do the Absorbing

The Homeworlds Clans are jealous of the Invader Clans. They want to absorb and replace them. They tried to do it the official way but failed in Grave Covenant:

Failed Absorption


So now they are using workarounds to get what they want, since they know they can't get the votes. If Clan Wolf is Abjured, it is no longer recognized as Clan and you don't need to have a vote to absorb it, you can just grab their stuff.

Andrews knows he definitely won't get the votes for Absorption against the remaining Invader Clans because again, you have to prove the Clan is weak. He also knows he can't use the same tactic to Abjure another Invader Clan so their stuff will be up for grabs. He uses a different tactic this time: he declares all the Inner Sphere Clans as "tainted and corrupt" and initiates Reaving Trials with the intention to get them to the point where they are weak enough to be absorbed.

Unofficial Absorption 1

Unofficial Absorption 2

As I previously posted, the Ghost Bear saKhan saw it for what it was which is why she declared the Reaving Trials improper:

Quote

Kabrinski, after meeting with Loremaster Laurie Tseng on Arcadia, had ordered the Fourth’s warriors to ignore the Reaving Trials, calling them “improper and a horrid misuse of Clan law.”

WoR p.82

Quote

The source material said that that "the ultimate sin" was "declaring the Wolverines indepence of the Clans". Even after two hundred fifty years this worst sin is still remembered as a prime example of un-Clanlike behaviour.

You said that after the Wolverines declared themselves independent, that they were going to be Annihilated but the source material says you are wrong. Maybe pictures will help this time:

Wolverine Annhilation

Quote

Except that during the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf Andrews was not ilKhan yet - he was just a Khan of one Clan. During the Wolf Abjuration he held as much power as any other Clan Khan.

What does that have to do with anything? He is heavily involved in, I would go so far as to say spearheading, a plot by the HomeWorld Clans to absorb and replace the Invader Clans. It is his involvement in this plot that pushes his name to the forefront to become ilKhan.

Quote

Very nice. Finally we are getting somewhere.

The next question:

No,no,no. I was playing fair. I said I would answer yours, if you answered mine. I answered YOUR question and you ignored mine so I'm not bothering with any of your other questions until I get an answer.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 30 September 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

Yes, to emphasize the number of different entities that were attacking Clan Wolf and failing to dislodge them (countering your point that they were weak) which according to the source material were, the Blood Spirits, Cloud Cobras, Steel Vipers, Star Adders and Ice Hellions. By my count, that's five. That's what the source material says. Again, only an idiot would think I meant EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR in those Clans were fighting those battles.

Do not blame me for what you wrote.

Jaroth Corbett, on 30 September 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

WoR page 67 - it's just one page down

They didn't HAVE to declare an Absorption because it wasn't official. This is a plot. For a Clan to be absorbed these things need to happen:

1. A motion is made for Absorption (The Clan in question has to be perceived as too weak to function and continue as it is)
2. The motion needs to be seconded.
3. Once seconded, the motion is on the floor to be voted on.
4. A vote is held
5. If the vote is successful
6. Clans bid amongst themselves for the right to do the Absorbing

The Homeworlds Clans are jealous of the Invader Clans. They want to absorb and replace them. They tried to do it the official way but failed in Grave Covenant:

Failed Absorption


So now they are using workarounds to get what they want, since they know they can't get the votes. If Clan Wolf is Abjured, it is no longer recognized as Clan and you don't need to have a vote to absorb it, you can just grab their stuff.

Andrews knows he definitely won't get the votes for Absorption against the remaining Invader Clans because again, you have to prove the Clan is weak. He also knows he can't use the same tactic to Abjure another Invader Clan so their stuff will be up for grabs. He uses a different tactic this time: he declares all the Inner Sphere Clans as "tainted and corrupt" and initiates Reaving Trials with the intention to get them to the point where they are weak enough to be absorbed.

Unofficial Absorption 1

Unofficial Absorption 2

As I previously posted, the Ghost Bear saKhan saw it for what it was which is why she declared the Reaving Trials improper:WoR p.82

Jumping on some enclaves belonging to Abjured Clan is normal. The same happened when the Nova Cats were Abjured.

Jaroth Corbett, on 30 September 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

You said that after the Wolverines declared themselves independent, that they were going to be Annihilated but the source material says you are wrong. Maybe pictures will help this time:

Wolverine Annhilation

You missed that part that calls "the declaration of the Wolverines independence of the Clans" to be "the ultimate sin" and that it was the good reason for the Wolverines destruction.

Jaroth Corbett, on 30 September 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

What does that have to do with anything? He is heavily involved in, I would go so far as to say spearheading, a plot by the HomeWorld Clans to absorb and replace the Invader Clans. It is his involvement in this plot that pushes his name to the forefront to become ilKhan.

As I said, Andrews was not ilKhan when the former Wolves were Abjured. The Wolves were Abjured by the common voting of Clan Khans, not by Andrews. In April 3071 he was just one Khan, no different from any other Clan Khan. He had no power outside of his Clan. His "Musings" were written months after the Wolf Abjuration, after he was elected ilKhan and got the powers of the ilKhan's office.

Jaroth Corbett, on 30 September 2023 - 01:43 PM, said:

No,no,no. I was playing fair. I said I would answer yours, if you answered mine. I answered YOUR question and you ignored mine so I'm not bothering with any of your other questions until I get an answer.

I answered your question the same way you answered mine. The novel just states that some former Abjured Clanners think that they are ilClan.

The next question: Did the Grand Council of the Clans voted about the Abjuration of the Ward's Wolves?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Do not blame me for what you wrote.

Do not blame for jumping to the nonsensical conclusions you jumped to.

Quote

Jumping on some enclaves belonging to Abjured Clan is normal. The same happened when the Nova Cats were Abjured.

The Nova Cats weren't the target of an Absorption before being Abjured. That's the point I'm making. The Nova Cats and the Wolves in Exile were Abjured properly because they sided with the Inner Sphere against the Clans. I posted the text before but I'm happy to do it again:

Quote

This tool is often used against those that stray from the path of the Clans but have not completely rejected it. When Clan Nova Cat allied with the Star League and part of Clan Wolf with the Federated Commonwealth, they were both Abjured in absentia.

Era Digest - Golden Century

Clan Wolf got Abjured because the Homeworld Clans tried to Absorb it and failed so they did a workaround.

Quote

You missed that part that calls "the declaration of the Wolverines independence of the Clans" to be "the ultimate sin" and that it was the good reason for the Wolverines destruction.

And somehow you keep missing the part where the source material clearly says they were just going to censure the Wolverines but bring them back into the fold UNTIL they detonated a nuke that destroyed a genetic repository. Then they changed their mind and voted for Annihilation. It keep amusing me that you always ignore the points I make with the source material backing me up that you can't refute.


https://ibb.co/x63TH9s

Quote

As I said, Andrews was not ilKhan when the former Wolves were Abjured. The Wolves were Abjured by the common voting of Clan Khans, not by Andrews. In April 3071 he was just one Khan, no different from any other Clan Khan. He had no power outside of his Clan. His "Musings" were written months after the Wolf Abjuration, after he was elected ilKhan and got the powers of the ilKhan's office.

And as I said, he was part of a plot that consisted of the Homeworld Clans to absorb and replace the Inner Sphere Clans, which failed officially in Grave Covenant, which is why they used workaround to get what they wanted.

Quote

I answered your question the same way you answered mine. The novel just states that some former Abjured Clanners think that they are ilClan.

ROFLMAO No buddy it states that Clan Wolf fought through the Terran Defense, defeated the warriors of the Republic of the Sphere and then fought Clan Jade Falcon for the right to be the ilClan. But whatever helps you sleep at night. However, I'll stick to the source material.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 01 October 2023 - 05:27 AM, said:

Do not blame for jumping to the nonsensical conclusions you jumped to.

It was you who wrote" "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS" in big bold letters.

Jaroth Corbett, on 01 October 2023 - 05:27 AM, said:

The Nova Cats weren't the target of an Absorption before being Abjured. That's the point I'm making. The Nova Cats and the Wolves in Exile were Abjured properly because they sided with the Inner Sphere against the Clans. I posted the text before but I'm happy to do it again:
Era Digest - Golden Century

Clan Wolf got Abjured because the Homeworld Clans tried to Absorb it and failed so they did a workaround.

And this exactly is where you are making the mistake. If the Grand Council of the Clans executes the Ritual of Abjuration according the rules as described in The Clans (p.46), then the Abjuration is valid and proper. Re-read the text, please: There are no conditions regarding siding with somebody or against somebody. There are no conditions regarding hidden agendas or anything else.

I guess that you are confused because the Golden Century mentions them, but they are just listed as reasons of previous Abjurations. They are not the rules themselves.

As I said, if the majority of Khans in the Grand Council of the Clans agrees on the Abjuration, then such Clan is properly Abjured. In the end, the votes of the Grand Council Khans decide the matter, not the original motion.

Jaroth Corbett, on 01 October 2023 - 05:27 AM, said:

And somehow you keep missing the part where the source material clearly says they were just going to censure the Wolverines but bring them back into the fold UNTIL they detonated a nuke that destroyed a genetic repository. Then they changed their mind and voted for Annihilation. It keep amusing me that you always ignore the points I make with the source material backing me up that you can't refute.
https://ibb.co/x63TH9s

And you missed the part where it was "the ultimate sin" of "declaring Clan Wolverine independent". Hovever, declaring themselves independent of the Grand Coucil of the Clans did not help the Wolverines.

Jaroth Corbett, on 01 October 2023 - 05:27 AM, said:

And as I said, he was part of a plot that consisted of the Homeworld Clans to absorb and replace the Inner Sphere Clans, which failed officially in Grave Covenant, which is why they used workaround to get what they wanted.

And that plot was irrelevant (if it even existed then) because the Abjuration is valid and proper if the needed majority of Khans in the Grand Council agrees on the Abjuration. There are no conditions (just as described in The Clans, p.46).

Jaroth Corbett, on 01 October 2023 - 05:27 AM, said:

ROFLMAO No buddy it states that Clan Wolf fought through the Terran Defense, defeated the warriors of the Republic of the Sphere and then fought Clan Jade Falcon for the right to be the ilClan. But whatever helps you sleep at night. However, I'll stick to the source material.

That source material that says that the Abjured Clan Wolf lost its Clan status decades before it got close to Terra.

And of course, you have still not answered my question. But it does not matter.

But we can try something: Take The Clans (p.46) with its Ritual of Abjuration description and then re-read the description of the Abjuration in WoR (p.66). After that tell me exactly what rule of the Ritual of Abjuration (as described in The Clans) the Grand Council of the Clans broke when Abjuring the Wolves.

[Duke Falcon]

@Jaroth & martian

While you still drop quotes there n back did you not forget something? You both neglected the essence of the Clans, the meaning to be a Clan. I understood that this is not written anywhere into any books just swiftly noted: All Clans are different. But their essence is the same, the reason why House Kerensky founded them and entrusted them with the Hidden Hope Doctrine.

And you not forget that anything - except Annihilation - could be undone according the rules settled by Kerensky. An Absorption could be undone by split a Clan into two or more "new" Clans. Even Abjuration could be undone theoretically if the Abjured Clan proves worthy to be re-institute into the "official" Clans. Just because such thing not happen since Aleksandr's death it not means it cannot happen IF a certainly valid reason is presented.

Consider all of these from the aspect of a Clan! Not just as an Ultrasmurf quoting Roboute Guilliman! Take and feel the essence not just read and rebuke the meaning of certain words! Those are merely guidelines. Think by clanner logic!

What were the goal of f@*0t Andrews and his lunatic, bittered Vipers? They wanted what all the other Clans: Weaken the bests but most prominently they wished the most sacred thing: Kerensky bloodname! But they kicked their own balls and lost the bloodname, the only true material legacy of the godly respected House Kerensky. They abjured the Wolves properly or inproperly? What does it matters? It were merely to derail certain troubles what finally culminated in the erasing of Steel Vipers and a few more stuffs (now a minute silence to mourn Clan Blood Spirit!). Oh, yes, big mistake just growth bigger...

All the sane Clans understood that true greatness awaits them in or around the Inner Sphere and moved. Invading Clans growth stronger than any other Clans and more wealthy to expand their forces beyond imagination. Snow Ravens also just prospered when left clan-space. All the Clans prospered whom left the clan-space what were engulfed by war, mistrust and continous blaming of each others... Thanks for the Vipers' gone nuts. Sad story sad or what...

Meanwhile in the Inner Sphere those Clans whome were not "Clans" officially any longer because of the Grand Council's un-acknowledgement, well, growth, prospered and became a force whom could - if wished - force the "leftover" Clans to do their bidding. Like acknowledge them as Clans or reverse abjurations. But why should they? They made a step what brought them further to the goal of any "real" Clans, further to accomplish the sacred Hidden Hope Doctrine. What matters for them the opinion of a few weaklings whom cannot hide? The place of the Clan worlds were known by the Clans settled in the Sphere. "Life is good! We abjured the "tainteds" whom got closer to our goals than we! Just plea they may not return to kick our poor asses!" <= How intimidating! Only Clan Coyote would have a chance while the rest... Pffft!

And then, a Clan what still possessed the "sacred by out of question mandate of heaven" Kerensky-bloodname took Terra, the dream of ALL the Clans! Homeworld Clans have a few options (apart cry like crazy)..:
1. Neglect it and hope the IlClan, IlKhan and his\her forces not arrived to ask them politely to "kneel or die b!**es!"
2. Acknowledge and reverse abjurations, accept that the Goals Kerensky marked for the Clans finally fulfilled and done. Joy and happyness all across the Kerensky-cluster!
3. Acknowledge but launch some Trials and fail most probably forced to choose option 1 or 2... If all spheroid Clans acknowledge Wolves as IlClan their united strenght could shatter any resistance in Clan space...
4. Pack their stuffs and leave the Kerensky-cluster leaving toward the galactic core and became mutant space-nomads preyed by ork lootaboyz all the times...

But I would say we better pretend that Dark Age never ever happened bacuse it is a sh!tdump of the BattleTech timeline, bigger mistake than anything else Fasa or Microsoft done together...

Otherwise, cheers! And Falcons for Presidents!

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 01 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

It was you who wrote" "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS" in big bold letters.

It was you who thought battles were fought by EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR in the Clan.

martian, on 01 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

And this exactly is where you are making the mistake. If the Grand Council of the Clans executes the Ritual of Abjuration according the rules as described in The Clans (p.46), then the Abjuration is valid and proper. Re-read the text, please: There are no conditions regarding siding with somebody or against somebody. There are no conditions regarding hidden agendas or anything else.

I'm not making ANY mistake. There have been examples in the past of things being done IMPROPERLY. The biggest example would be the illegal and unsanctioned absorption of Clan Wolf by the Jade Falcons.

martian, on 01 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

I guess that you are confused because the Golden Century mentions them, but they are just listed as reasons of previous Abjurations. They are not the rules themselves.

There's nothing to be confused about. The Golden Century is source material and it clearly states what Abjuration is and why it is done. Again, I'll stick to the source material.

martian, on 01 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

And you missed the part where it was "the ultimate sin" of "declaring Clan Wolverine independent". Hovever, declaring themselves independent of the Grand Coucil of the Clans did not help the Wolverines.

You can cover your eyes and ignore the information if you want, but YOU said the Wolverines were going to get annihilated for declaring themselves independent and the source material says you are wrong. They were only going to get censured until they detonated the nuke. The source material isn't going anywhere. You're wrong.

martian, on 01 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

And of course, you have still not answered my question. But it does not matter.

And of course, you still haven't acknowledged that the source material says you are wrong on at LEAST two points which DOES matter.

martian, on 01 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

But we can try something: Take The Clans (p.46) with its Ritual of Abjuration description and then re-read the description of the Abjuration in WoR (p.66). After that tell me exactly what rule of the Ritual of Abjuration (as described in The Clans) the Grand Council of the Clans broke when Abjuring the Wolves.

Nah how about we try reading the Clans (p.13) to confirm what punishment the Wolverines were going to get after declaring themselves independent. Then how about we add on Grave Covenant p. 58-63 & p.143-146. which details part of the plot I mentioned before, that Vlad had exposed. Additionally let's add WoR p.171 that mentions the Nova Cats and Wolves in Exile Abjuration.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 02 October 2023 - 03:37 PM, said:

It was you who thought battles were fought by EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR in the Clan.

I'm not making ANY mistake. There have been examples in the past of things being done IMPROPERLY. The biggest example would be the illegal and unsanctioned absorption of Clan Wolf by the Jade Falcons.

There's nothing to be confused about. The Golden Century is source material and it clearly states what Abjuration is and why it is done. Again, I'll stick to the source material.

You can cover your eyes and ignore the information if you want, but YOU said the Wolverines were going to get annihilated for declaring themselves independent and the source material says you are wrong. They were only going to get censured until they detonated the nuke. The source material isn't going anywhere. You're wrong.

And of course, you still haven't acknowledged that the source material says you are wrong on at LEAST two points which DOES matter.

You can keep posting your irrelevant tidbits that played no role in the actual Wolf Abjuration. (You forgot add some irrelevant tidbit about what Andrews did months or years after the Abjuration, by the way.)

You can even post some obviously nonsensical info just like "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS" in big letters.

You can even keep ignoring what the books actually say.

You can even refuse to answer my questions, but as I said, your refusal does not matter anyway.

Jaroth Corbett, on 02 October 2023 - 03:37 PM, said:

Nah how about we try reading the Clans (p.13) to confirm what punishment the Wolverines were going to get after declaring themselves independent. Then how about we add on Grave Covenant p. 58-63 & p.143-146. which details part of the plot I mentioned before, that Vlad had exposed. Additionally let's add WoR p.171 that mentions the Nova Cats and Wolves in Exile Abjuration.

It seems to me that you have found no answer:
Take The Clans (p.46) with its Ritual of Abjuration description and then re-read the description of the Abjuration in WoR (p.66). After that tell me exactly what rule of the Ritual of Abjuration (as described in The Clans) the Grand Council of the Clans broke when Abjuring the Wolves.

[Duke Falcon]

Jaroth Corbett, on 02 October 2023 - 03:37 PM, said:

Nah how about we try reading the Clans (p.13) to confirm what punishment the Wolverines were going to get after declaring themselves independent.

May I suggest both of you to read Betrayal of Ideals? That render most other sourcebooks dubious about the Clans.

How can one define what is proper or inproper done by the Grand Council? Every decisions, votes, whatever could be attacked and even turned around.

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 02 October 2023 - 08:33 PM, said:

You can keep posting your irrelevant tidbits that played no role in the actual Wolf Abjuration. (You forgot add some irrelevant tidbit about what Andrews did months or years after the Abjuration, by the way.)

Whenever I debate, I try to offer a wholistic view of the topic in question. I was trying to show you the big picture. I'm not doing that anymore because anything I show from the source material that you can't refute you just call "irrelevant" so I'm done with that.

martian, on 02 October 2023 - 08:33 PM, said:

You can even post some obviously nonsensical info just like "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS" in big letters.

1. Blood Spirits 2. Cloud Cobras 3. Steel Vipers 4. Star Adders 5. Ice Hellions. That's five. That's what the source material says and again you have to be an idiot to think I meant EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR was fighting. I can go round this merry-go-round as long as it goes round. Nothing will change.

martian, on 02 October 2023 - 08:33 PM, said:

You can even keep ignoring what the books actually say.

I'm not the one ignoring what the books say.

You said the Wolves were weak and after the GC Abjuration vote, they ran away. I showed you that the books said that they were planning to leave and were actually in the process of leaving before there was even a meeting of the GC. I even went to so far as to lay out the whole timeline.

You ignored this. You're wrong because the source material says so and as always, I'll side with the source material.

You said the Wolverines were going to be Annihilated because they declared themselves independent. I showed you that the books said they were only going to be censured until they detonated a nuke that destroyed a genetic repository and THEN they got voted to be Annihilated.

You ignored this. You're wrong because the source material says so and as always, I'll side with the source material.

martian, on 02 October 2023 - 08:33 PM, said:

You can even refuse to answer my questions, but as I said, your refusal does not matter anyway.

You're the one who refuses to answer questions or accept reality, but as I said, your refusal does not matter anyway because the source material stands.

martian, on 02 October 2023 - 08:33 PM, said:

It seems to me that you have found no answer:

I found all the answers I needed to find from the source material and I stand on that.

Clan Wolf took Terra then fought Clan Jade Falcon to become the ilClan. That's what the Battletech novel says because the writers said so and there is NOTHING you can do to change that. So since you can't accept that, I'll just treat you like a baby seal and club you over the head with the source material every time you post. Every single post you make from now on will be met with an excerpt from Hour of the Wolf where Clan Wolf became the ilCLan.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 04 October 2023 - 04:13 AM, said:

Whenever I debate, I try to offer a wholistic view of the topic in question. I was trying to show you the big picture. I'm not doing that anymore because anything I show from the source material that you can't refute you just call "irrelevant" so I'm done with that.

Quoting irrelevant tidbits of long forgotten plots that are not mentioned during the Abjuration of the former Wolf Clan.

Jaroth Corbett, on 04 October 2023 - 04:13 AM, said:

1. Blood Spirits 2. Cloud Cobras 3. Steel Vipers 4. Star Adders 5. Ice Hellions. That's five. That's what the source material says and again you have to be an idiot to think I meant EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR was fighting. I can go round this merry-go-round as long as it goes round. Nothing will change.
I'm not the one ignoring what the books say.
You said the Wolves were weak and after the GC Abjuration vote, they ran away. I showed you that the books said that they were planning to leave and were actually in the process of leaving before there was even a meeting of the GC. I even went to so far as to lay out the whole timeline.
You ignored this. You're wrong because the source material says so and as always, I'll side with the source material.
You said the Wolverines were going to be Annihilated because they declared themselves independent. I showed you that the books said they were only going to be censured until they detonated a nuke that destroyed a genetic repository and THEN they got voted to be Annihilated.
You ignored this. You're wrong because the source material says so and as always, I'll side with the source material.
You're the one who refuses to answer questions or accept reality, but as I said, your refusal does not matter anyway because the source material stands.
I found all the answers I needed to find from the source material and I stand on that.

Who did write "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS"? Oh, you did.

Jaroth Corbett, on 04 October 2023 - 04:13 AM, said:

Clan Wolf took Terra then fought Clan Jade Falcon to become the ilClan. That's what the Battletech novel says because the writers said so and there is NOTHING you can do to change that. So since you can't accept that, I'll just treat you like a baby seal and club you over the head with the source material every time you post. Every single post you make from now on will be met with an excerpt from Hour of the Wolf where Clan Wolf became the ilCLan.

Have you found the answer?

Take The Clans (p.46) with its Ritual of Abjuration description and then re-read the description of the Abjuration in WoR (p.66). After that tell me exactly what rule of the Ritual of Abjuration (as described in The Clans) the Grand Council of the Clans broke when Abjuring the Wolves.

That should be easy. After all, this is a matter of simply checking two or three paragraphs of source material taht you love so much.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Who did write "Let me emphasize that point: FIVE SEPARATE CLANS"? Oh, you did.

Who stupidly thought I meant EVERY SINGLE WARRIOR. Oh, that was you.

I'm going to take a page out of your book.

martian, on 04 October 2023 - 05:30 AM, said:

Irrelevant.

Baby seal treatment I said.

Quote

Alaric took a single step closer to her, all emotion erased from his face. “You are mistaken, Malvina—like Stone before you. I am not Ulric Kerensky. I will not fight a series of trials where fate hangs on multiple battles. Neg. We settle this once and for all. One fight, one Trial, with the victor as ilClan, now and forever.”

Hour of the Wolf page 355 <- Source material

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 04 October 2023 - 05:48 AM.

[martian]

Jaroth Corbett, on 04 October 2023 - 05:45 AM, said:

I'm going to take a page out of your book.
Baby seal treatment I said.
Hour of the Wolf page 355 <- Source material

Have you found the answer?

Take The Clans (p.46) with its Ritual of Abjuration description and then re-read the description of the Abjuration in WoR (p.66). After that tell me exactly what rule of the Ritual of Abjuration (as described in The Clans) the Grand Council of the Clans broke when Abjuring the Wolves.

Why are you avoiding this canon material? Comparing two short portions of text against each other.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Did Clan Wolf conquer Terra by defeating the Republic of the Sphere then Clan Jade Falcon to become the ilClan?

Have you found the answer?

Baby seal treatment I said:

Quote

Loremaster Aberdeen Mehta moved beside her counterpart in the middle of the stage. “Seyla, warriors of Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon… defeaters of the Republic of the Sphere.” “SEYLA!” the vast audience responded, hundreds of voices in unison.


“We stand here today on the sacred ground of Terra, the birthplace of humankind,” Mehta continued, her voice amplified through the sound system. “Both of our Clans have accomplished what no other Clan has. We came and conquered Terra. We removed the blight that was the Republic of the Sphere once and for all. The descendants of Nicholas Kerensky stand on the world that was promised to them.” She paused and turned to Andwar Icaza.

Hour of the Wolf - Page 360 <- Source material

Why are you avoiding this canon material?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 04 October 2023 - 05:57 AM.

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 03 October 2023 - 12:06 PM, said:

How can one define what is proper or inproper done by the Grand Council? Every decisions, votes, whatever could be attacked and even turned around.

Do you own the The Clans sourcebook?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Duke Falcon, on 03 October 2023 - 12:06 PM, said:

May I suggest both of you to read Betrayal of Ideals? That render most other sourcebooks dubious about the Clans.

How can one define what is proper or inproper done by the Grand Council? Every decisions, votes, whatever could be attacked and even turned around.

I read Betrayal of Ideals a long time ago. Also what is proper and improper is stated in the source material which I have posted previously.

martian, on 04 October 2023 - 06:02 AM, said:

Irrelevant

Baby seal treatment I said:

Quote

His voice was louder, deeper, more penetrating. “We all know what the Founder said in The Remembrance, speaking of the purpose behind our Grand Crusade to Terra. It only seems fitting to read it today:


On Terra’s firm soil, ready to rebuild
The Star League with their hearts and hands.
But who shall lead? Upon whose shoulders
Will the burden lie? The answer is the test;
The test is the journey. Whichever Clan
Carves its way through the barbarians
To reach that fabled cradle of us all
Shall be the vehicle of the League’s rebirth. Upon
The Star League throne shall sit that Clan’s
Wisest Khan. So should it be—So shall it be.

The Loremasters bowed their heads for a moment, and in unison said,

“Thus speaks Nicholas Kerensky, father of us all.”

“SEYLA!” the crowd responded

Hour of the Wolf page 360 <- Source material

Why are you avoiding this canon material?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 04 October 2023 - 07:11 AM.