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So Homing Weapons Suck....


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#81 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 07:00 AM

View Postpbiggz, on 22 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:


How about distinguish between indirect locks and direct locks?

Indirect locks get you much slower missiles but they can do at least a bit more elaborate tracking (figure out their way around hills and stuff). Direct locks (you got the lock) are fire and forget with much much faster missiles but its more of a "missile go straight to bad robot" kind of deal?


That would be good too, but LRM's only have one speed cooked into the code, or so I've been told. Is that a change that COULD be implemented?

#82 BumbleBee

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 01:45 PM

I'd say that if the target Mech is NARCed or TAGged the missile truck gets 90% of the MS or maybe even Damage, and the spotter gets 10%. If you are doing the spotting yourself you are giving yourself the 10% anyways.

As far as I know the current game only gives the spotting bonus to one Mech, although I could be wrong, so this might be useful as the trigger

Edited by BumbleBee, 22 September 2023 - 01:47 PM.


#83 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 02:02 PM

View PostBumbleBee, on 22 September 2023 - 01:45 PM, said:

I'd say that if the target Mech is NARCed or TAGged the missile truck gets 90% of the MS or maybe even Damage, and the spotter gets 10%. If you are doing the spotting yourself you are giving yourself the 10% anyways.

As far as I know the current game only gives the spotting bonus to one Mech, although I could be wrong, so this might be useful as the trigger


10 percent isn't enough. You mounted up a heavy missile launcher with a long cooldown and got into the backfield, you fire it, no damage. Then the target gets rained to death... call it 600 damage from missiles. And for mounting the NARC you get... 60 damage worth of match score? You can do better than that by spending the weight on SRMs.

#84 BumbleBee

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 02:20 PM

It's more of a starting point for discussion. If a dedicated spotter is running, chances are there is more than one missile mech. You dont want it to be such a massive reward that you end up with 4 spotters on your team and only 2 missile boats, but it should still be worthwhile enough for it to encourage the teamwork, and you dont want to take so much away from the missile Mechs that they stop running missiles.

If you got not hits in your scenario you would have gotten 0 damage anyway, but you still got 60 and the enemy Mech is gone, whereas it would otherwise have still been there, and gunning for you behind enemy lines

Edited by BumbleBee, 22 September 2023 - 02:26 PM.


#85 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 22 September 2023 - 02:30 PM

View PostBumbleBee, on 22 September 2023 - 02:20 PM, said:

dedicated spotter is running, chances are there is more than one missile mech. You dont want it to be such a massive reward that you end up with 4 spotters on your team and only 2 missile boats, but it should still be worthwhile enough for it to encourage the teamwork, and you dont want to take so much away from the missile Mechs that they stop running missiles.

This is why dedicated spotters shouldn't be a thing. You should be able to contribute and spot, not choose between the two. Then again, the fact that missiles were the first IDF weapon in this game seems weird to me given the ease of focus fire it offers. I'd prefer things like Thumpers/Long Tom over missiles for that reason. I mean I get that they were capable of IDF in TT but still.

Worse still, you have no idea what the rest of the team is taking up until you've already landed. This game doesn't have a sort of pre-game lobby or a way to coordinate with your team before dropping with mechs like it probably should (yes, even in PUGs).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 September 2023 - 02:34 PM.


#86 Runecarver

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Posted 26 September 2023 - 01:16 AM

View Postpbiggz, on 19 September 2023 - 09:54 AM, said:

I don't think we'll get a fix for lock-on weapons that doesn't involve a different lock-on mechanic. I'd love to see one that maybe rewards positioning and skill a little more, but I can't say I know what that would look like.


The thing is, the current locking mechanic actually does that. It rewards direct locking by having a constant 1 second lock time for targets you can see, and disincentivizes indirect without TAG or NARC by increasing lock times based on distance to target and whether or not they're under ECM protection. It also does reward skill and positioning, because to be consistently effective with these weapons you need to be aware of your position and your opponents position, and forces you to keep staring at them. The locking mechanic doesn't need yet another rework, especially not a biased one. Not that its even possible at this point.

What can and should be changed however, is the effectiveness of the counters and the weapons themselves. ECM should not get more effectiveness from skill tree like how active probe doesn't, radar deprivation should be max 70% so that it effectively only counters the benefits of target decay, and AMS should really have its range reduced and the AMS quirks on the 2-4 AMS mechs removed (because its unlikely they'll ever bother fixing AMS being able to shoot through all terrain or to have diminishing returns).

Similarly LRMs can be rebalanced with stats changes. Reduced minimum range, Increased velocity, increased cooldown, heat and notable ghost heat penalties. These are to spread out the sizes of missile volleys, give people more breathing room to react and seek cover while also making them actually reliable weapons for long range bursts. Consistent DPS with them would require a NARC.

Artemis upgrade removing minimum range entirely, and providing even more velocity alongside the spread reduction (that only works against targets in LoS to begin with) would make artemis LRM builds more focused towards solo play and direct fire fighting, while at the same limiting volley sizes even further due to slot and tonnage penalties. Personally I'd like to see clan LRMs lose minimum range completely, because the way they stream fire would limit their effectiveness at close range very hard. While Artemis clan LRMs should have their volley delay stat reduced so that they come out of the launcher quicker and in a tighter pack to more effectively resist AMS alongside the proposed velocity increase.

ATMs are in an alright spot. Though they could come out of the launcher in a more tighter pack by reducing volley delay so that they aren't quite so vulnerable to overly abundant AMS options.

Streaks are bit of a pickle, because you can't increase their damage or they'll start crippling light mechs in a single volley. Overall a valid approach is to lower their heat and cooldown while increasing their critical damage and ammo per ton to make them more into a consistent DPS weapon that rewards committing to a target. One that encourages the player to keep moving and dancing around their opponent while they whittle away at them. That way you avoid legging or taking a torso off a 20-25 ton mech in one volley, but improve their chances against anything heavier.

Edited by Runecarver, 26 September 2023 - 01:32 AM.


#87 The6thMessenger

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Posted 26 September 2023 - 04:22 PM

View PostRunecarver, on 26 September 2023 - 01:16 AM, said:

Streaks are bit of a pickle, because you can't increase their damage or they'll start crippling light mechs in a single volley.


MAKE. THEM. STREAM. FIRED.

But nah, the comp just shut it down, because it isn't their idea.

#88 VeeOt Dragon

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Posted 26 September 2023 - 04:43 PM

just return Artemis to what it was before the big Nerf and it would be fine (Artemis used to apply its effect no mater if you had line of sight or not. it also had more effects than it does now). for someone like me who uses DF/IDF at about a 50/50 it just isn't worth the tonnage or slot investment.

sadly any talk of making LRM better is a moot point since balancing is controlled by a very vocal anti-LRM group of people.

i think a good buff for IDF fire would to be a faster Lock time for each allied mech that has LOS with the target mech. i wouldn't make it so that you get LOS lock times but perhaps with say 3 allied mechs you can almost negate ECM (with the caveat of a minimum lock time for IDF being still a little longer than minimum LOS lock time)

mostly LRM don't need much to bring them back into usefulness, a little greater speed, increase lock area (area you need to hold your crosshair in for a lock), and making Artemis worth the tonnage again.

i hate that a weapon called Long Range Missiles, are only effective at what is essentially medium range especially in a game state where 1,000m+ seems to be the go to combat range. might as well just change the name to Homing MRM or something. (hell even MRM launchers are almost more effective at their max optimum range than LRM at the same range (seeing as you have to face time the enemy long enough to lose a torso before you can even really fire))

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 26 September 2023 - 04:44 PM.






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