79 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Trading longer stares for better accuracy on mechs caught flat-footed at range for lesser impact up-close (because long durations make weapons more unwieldly at short range). Not really a buff or nerf. IMO HAGs are nice but honestly Gauss are still better for most builds. Their strength is really when you are just mixing ERML with a ballistic weapon (and maybe a case where you don't want to chain ERLL spam).

Edit: After playing with them at range, the spread is still rough for the extreme range tickle fights where you typically play ERLL. The spread can be roughly the size of a Whale at certain ranges, so yeah, still not really usurping Gauss outside of mid-range

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 September 2023 - 11:03 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Saved By The Bell, on 24 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

I used 20 and 30 on gauss cougar. This weapon is bad in case of main weapon.
In far distance Gauss is much better. In close - laser vomit, ac, uac better.

Literally, its like mrm with shoot lag.

Yeah. I find that the basic Gauss-Vomit works better, both in terms of ergonomics and the ability to kill.

HAGs are great when you want to pad damage, but the charge with the stream is a massive downside to the use of the weapon. And it is in fact quite atrocious that the cauldron's solution is to increase the stream -- as if using the weapon isn't difficult enough.

I'd rather they just reduced the projectile velocity, and left the interval as-is for the purpose of retaining transfer-of-training (that means it's easier to lead because of familiarity between UAC burst and HAG stream, think of it as UAC with a charge instead).

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 September 2023 - 04:19 PM.

[RockmachinE]

Having used HAGs extensively before and after the change, that the burst frequency decrease did make the weapon quite different and weaker.

On paper I thought it wouldn't make much difference, I was like "whatever man the change in burst is minimal, no nerf there", but it did. Its harder to hit fast movers now, spreads damage more because of the slower shooting and decreases overall DPS.

The change in accuracy doesn't really do much and seems almost the same. At distance you still get a spread and at mid to close the spread is negligible like before. The HAG is weaker now, but still quite decent.

[D A T A]

VaelophisNyx, on 19 September 2023 - 05:08 PM, said:

genuinely, explain to me why having their spread REDUCED was a good thing
they already were far too capable of sniping before this patch, and probably needed a spread increase.

this makes me wonder what on earth PGI is thinking when it comes to balance, and is certainly reinforcing the mindset that they enjoy sniper gameplay and nothing else

Imagine being so incompetent that you can't even distinguish a buff from a nerf

[Ken Harkin]

I only started playing with them in the past two weeks but WOW. Chasing down fast moving lights with them is tough but that really isn't their focus. Mounting 2 30s or 40s is simply brutal. Mounting a HAG40 on a Hellfire with 5 ERML is racking up amazing damage and performance. Twin 30s on an ECM BloodAsp with 4 ERML does great. Pretty much the only thing limiting my use of them is the space they take up. I admit, they feel almost too good and if you are smart about your poke and hide fighting you can shred opponents.

If there were anything I would see as a change it would be the cooldown/recharge.

First of all Gauss charge up is ridiculous, it always has been. I would see a longer cooldown rather than this nonsensical charge up. Ever heard of a CAPACITOR? Think of the cooldown as the time it takes for the mech's powerplant to recharge the capacitor for the gauss. Once it is charged you point and click but that wait to be charged/cooldown should be the killer.

Now for the next part... Gauss charge up is limited and you can cooldown/charge ONE Gauss at a time. If you want to charge TWO you need to do so consecutively. Say HAG30 is 6 second cooldown and you have 2. After 12 seconds 2 can be fired immediately. After 6 seconds only 1 while the other goes through its charge/cooldown. Similar for HAG40 . Perhaps you tie this to engine size.

Can charge 2 HAG20 simultaneously at engine size 300+ Cooldown/Charge 5 Seconds
Can charge 2 HAG30 simultaneously at engine size 325+ Cooldown/Charge 6 Seconds
Can charge 2 HAG40 simultaneously at engine size 350+ Cooldown/Charge 7 Seconds

Can charge 2 Light Gauss simultaneously at engine size 275+ Cooldown/Charge 5 Seconds
Can charge 2 Gauss simultaneously at engine size 300+ Cooldown/Charge 6 Seconds
Can charge 2 Heavy Gauss simultaneously at engine size 325+ Cooldown/Charge 7 Seconds

That is just my theory crafting. Slow down the rate of fire / increase cooldown. Eliminate the nonsensical charge mechanic. Stager the cooldown/recharge.

With the HAGs I am good with the longer drawn out stream of fire. It really reinforces the need to KEEP MOVING to avoid all the damage shredding single locations. In all honesty I could see a range reduction to 500/550 meters.

Edited by Ken Harkin, 26 September 2023 - 05:15 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ken Harkin, on 26 September 2023 - 05:15 AM, said:

First of all Gauss charge up is ridiculous, it always has been. I would see a longer cooldown rather than this nonsensical charge up. Ever heard of a CAPACITOR? Think of the cooldown as the time it takes for the mech's powerplant to recharge the capacitor for the gauss. Once it is charged you point and click but that wait to be charged/cooldown should be the killer.

Now for the next part... Gauss charge up is limited and you can cooldown/charge ONE Gauss at a time. If you want to charge TWO you need to do so consecutively. Say HAG30 is 6 second cooldown and you have 2. After 12 seconds 2 can be fired immediately. After 6 seconds only 1 while the other goes through its charge/cooldown. Similar for HAG40 . Perhaps you tie this to engine size.

Can charge 2 HAG20 simultaneously at engine size 300+ Cooldown/Charge 5 Seconds
Can charge 2 HAG30 simultaneously at engine size 325+ Cooldown/Charge 6 Seconds
Can charge 2 HAG40 simultaneously at engine size 350+ Cooldown/Charge 7 Seconds

Can charge 2 Light Gauss simultaneously at engine size 275+ Cooldown/Charge 5 Seconds
Can charge 2 Gauss simultaneously at engine size 300+ Cooldown/Charge 6 Seconds
Can charge 2 Heavy Gauss simultaneously at engine size 325+ Cooldown/Charge 7 Seconds

That is just my theory crafting. Slow down the rate of fire / increase cooldown. Eliminate the nonsensical charge mechanic. Stager the cooldown/recharge.

This is easily more non-sensical than the charge-up mechanic. Who cares about reality, the question is what impact does the mechanic have on gameplay. Gauss charge does its job of limiting the snapshot capability of the weapon.

[Necroconvict]

As far as the "charge" goes.. I could see argument of charge needed for a gauss to fling it's projectile.... and if that leads to the limit of 2 at a time, then why doesn't the PPC suffer from the same thing? The amount of energy that needs to be unleashed to fire a bolt of lightning, or 2 bolts... That's got to be a damned high amount of energy, and one hell of a stain on the engine producing the power. I could see firing stuff like that slowing you down if you happened to be moving at that moment, but the more you fire at the same time, the larger the draw of energy. I'd think that could lead to a cap on how many you could fire in a shot, or even cause a brief shutdown. Wouldn't that be exciting? not really.... but I mean I could see it.

[pbiggz]

MechB Kotare, on 24 September 2023 - 12:37 AM, said:

Yeah, i remember him giving cERLL 1.8 second duration to ''balance'' blue lasers spam...

He also reduced the ghost heat threshold to 1. You could fire 1 CER large at a time. Its one of the few times russ has personally rolled back a change.

Paul's version of balance was log in, queue, die, and nerf what killed him. Not really a recipe for success.

[Meep Meep]

Hags are getting a dispersion buff.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 17 October 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

Hags are getting a dispersion buff.

God knows why. The UAC changes last patch actually put them back in competition with HAGs in conjunction with the increase in HAG burst time, IMO, but why feel the need to reduce spread again?

Somebody out there seems to really hate firecones, I guess. "I clicked the right pixel but they didn't die, how unfair!", maybe? :v

Edited by foamyesque, 17 October 2023 - 01:20 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Well in compensation hag30 are getting a slight heat nerf.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 17 October 2023 - 01:19 PM, said:

God knows why. The UAC changes last patch actually put them back in competition with HAGs in conjunction with the increase in HAG burst time, IMO, but why feel the need to reduce spread again?

Somebody out there seems to really hate firecones, I guess. "I clicked the right pixel but they didn't die, how unfair!", maybe? :v

I mean with the spread, they aren't really that useful at their optimal range let alone beyond that. UACs are still different in the fact you don't have to charge up (which for pokes can be somewhat countered, but not for snapshots or brawling).

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2023 - 02:30 PM, said:

I mean with the spread, they aren't really that useful at their optimal range let alone beyond that. UACs are still different in the fact you don't have to charge up (which for pokes can be somewhat countered, but not for snapshots or brawling).

I would prefer hags back at 0.11s interval, but at a severe nerf to their projectile speed at maybe 1600m/s, that long-range 810m combat is more like a suggestion than the rule.

I honestly don't see the point of them being competitive outwards 810m tho, that kinda spits on the face of the basic GR and the AC2s. But comps seem to like it that way despite the problematic setup, so who am I to judge?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2023 - 04:51 PM, said:

I honestly don't see the point of them being competitive outwards 810m tho, that kinda spits on the face of the basic GR and the AC2s.

I mean Gauss is your PPFLD, HAGs are your burst alpha, UAC2s are your burst DPS, and AC2s are your sustained DPS. I don't that much of a problem in allowing them to threaten out to that range given the weapon's identity. I do think their damage output might be a little high if they remove the spread completely, but it depends on the duration of the burst we end up with if they do that. That or the heat, I could see heat being upped to be more restrictive.

It will be interesting to see though because HAGs do give me some reminders of the quad 10 Kodiak, the difference here is cooldown on these is much higher comparatively.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2023 - 08:03 PM.

[Meep Meep]

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2023 - 04:51 PM, said:

I would prefer hags back at 0.11s interval, but at a severe nerf to their projectile speed at maybe 1600m/s, that long-range 810m combat is more like a suggestion than the rule.

That was my suggestion at the time but the majority wanted to go in the released direction. Thats cool because with another dispersion buff my hagcat is going to be even moar annoying.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2023 - 08:01 PM, said:

I mean Gauss is your PPFLD, HAGs are your burst alpha, UAC2s are your burst DPS, and AC2s are your sustained DPS. I don't that much of a problem in allowing them to threaten out to that range given the weapon's identity. I do think their damage output might be a little high if they remove the spread completely, but it depends on the duration of the burst we end up with if they do that. That or the heat, I could see heat being upped to be more restrictive.

Threaten is fine, like I said, "810m more like a suggestion than the norm". Maybe have it's typical engagement at 660m by reducing projectile speed than the burst?

As nice as your distinction between types of weapons; the PPFLD, the Burst Alpha, Burst DPS, and Sustained DPS. HAGs are straight up delivering 20, 30, 40 damage per equipment, and you can fire two. No **** the damage is kinda high.

And this ain't MRMs that have insane spread and kind of low projectile speed in comparison to AC. HAGs are comparatively focused, it's spread is a meagre 0.17/0.155/0.14. Note that RACs are at 0.19 spread, LB2X is at 0.25, LB5X is at 0.4, and the previous two is kinda tight and accurate already. HAGs are only shafted by it's duration, but if you can tank it when clan already have long-*** laser burn, it's easy to put all slugs at one component at a waaay farther distance than MRMs do (yes I know they are spread out in 810m, but you can shoot HAGs closer), if you got decent aim.

I honestly even question the point of burst-DPS UAC2 or UAC5 setup. HAG30x2 is putting out 60 damage per peek that doesn't jam. UACs need a bit of concentrated facetime to do that, and an incredibly specific build to compete. Such as say the Ultraviolence with 8x UAC2. Yes double burst is at 32 damage (if you didn't jam BTW), and should you not, a second double-burst (that also didn't jam) will equate to 64 damage, with 0.72s interval in between. But that is through the use MC-bought 100 tonner which is sluggish AF. Consider that 2x HAG30 is available for the Hunchback IIC, which it's long-range competing alt would be 4x UAC2, which is half of the Ultra-Violence and straight up needs 4 burst without jam to compete, which takes 2.16s to do, what 2x HAG30 does in 0.84s. And did I mention that the HBK has JJ with smaller profile and better hardpoint placement?

Another take is that, it could have a hard range from 660m outwards 1650m. Where you still have the capacity to molest people a distance pretty well and competitive vs GRs, AC2s, and UAC2s, but it's not dealing full damage. I mean FFS, look at the damage. With this avenue, it could instead gain QoL improvements and ease up on the drawbacks than just maximizing drawbacks to maximize specialized advantages.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 October 2023 - 10:48 PM.

[Curccu]

Yes buff Mrms to same velocity and spread as HAGs!

[foamyesque]

Curccu, on 17 October 2023 - 11:11 PM, said:

Yes buff Mrms to same velocity and spread as HAGs!

Don't forget to boost the range!

[Curccu]

foamyesque, on 18 October 2023 - 03:05 AM, said:

Don't forget to boost the range!

I thought range would be ok because they weight bit less than hags with same numbers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 17 October 2023 - 10:14 PM, said:

Consider that 2x HAG30 is available for the Hunchback IIC, which it's long-range competing alt would be 4x UAC2, which is half of the Ultra-Violence and straight up needs 4 burst without jam to compete, which takes 2.16s to do, what 2x HAG30 does in 0.84s. And did I mention that the HBK has JJ with smaller profile and better hardpoint placement?

So let's use the HBK-IIC as the example because that used to be a solid mech, in fact EmP used to use the 4 UAC2 Hunchie a decent amount for long range suppression where most used 2 ERPPC. I mean if you don't get any jams at first, with 5s of exposure you can get out ~111 damage (I'm too lazy to get the actual number, this is just DPS without jams for the 5s duration). Now your mileage may vary but typically you aren't poking for too long and if you do get jams you went back under cover. Honestly UAC2s/5s are better for burst damage than RACs and that's a bit of a tragedy but :shrug:. Regardless I don't think the 4 UAC2 build is that disadvantaged comparatively. However again, I support reducing the damage, increasing the heat, increasing the duration, or some combination of the three if it means we remove spread on these weapons just like I support removing spread from RACs.

As for comparing them to MRMs, I get the notion, but given the cauldron and PGI have decided to balance by quirks (which I've said is the wrong move since quirks first got introduced) instead of actively trying to balance the tech bases, not really sure that's necessarily a salient point at this time.

The fact LBX get more heat efficiency and range instead of more damage is also a shame.

It's also worth noting that balancing weapons by hardpoint availability is probably something that should be avoided. Historically we have seen mech after mech be introduced that offers better hardpoints than what was available before and abused a weapon combination that just wasn't plausible before (or wasn't available to a good mech for it).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 October 2023 - 07:28 AM.