79 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

All the cauldron did with increasing the time between pellets is essentially give a ballistic weapon the same "duration" as a laser weapon and are applying the same logic as lasers to it "it spreads more now."

Meanwhile ignoring the fact it HAS replaced Gauss (your pinpoint argument is severely invalid) and AC10 / UAC10 on the clan side.

ALL of this nerf and buff on the spread and the duration is a REALLY sad attempt at trying to keep a shiny new toy "valid" for the current "meta" which is the snipe game. Like seriously. The MAIN thing that needs to happen is cut the range down to Heavy Gauss levels and it would fix ALL of it.

Heck even increase the spread after cutting the range. I could see that. But knowing WHY Heavy Gauss was kept at a low range when it was introduced only to see this fiasco with the HAGs is...something else.

Yes the pinpoint argument COULD be said for the heavy gauss. True. BUT...the damage alone of the Heavy Gauss caused plenty of people to start hollering about power creep. Which helped keep its range low. NOW....we know power creep was already happening from hardpoint inflation and the "New Mech Arms Race" and we introduce a weapon system with more damage per ton into the mix and scramble to make it fit a playstyle.

Make the HAGs range comparable to Heavy Gauss ranges. Increase the spread a bit if need be. Then try it out. It will keep Gauss and AC10/UAC10s where they are and need to be....AC20s might be in trouble then but at least its down to one weapon instead of 2 or 3. Its a step in the right direction.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moadebe, on 18 October 2023 - 07:45 AM, said:

Meanwhile ignoring the fact it HAS replaced Gauss (your pinpoint argument is severely invalid) and AC10 / UAC10 on the clan side.

It really hasn't replaced Gauss which is why they are trying to make it more attractive. There are few gauss-vomit builds where I swapped out a HAG for Gauss as generally the heat of the HAGs by themselves limit the usefulness. I could go HAG + lasers or Gauss + more lasers and almost every time, I go Gauss + more lasers because HAGs just don't sync quite right with lasers IMO and you really aren't gaining that much firepower over the Gauss + more lasers. At range they also don't provide much value because well, they spread wildly at range even with the current spread.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 October 2023 - 08:15 AM.

[Meep Meep]

The best hag builds I see floating around are basically 2 hag30 and maybe some token energy. I don't see them paired with vomit builds very much but I still a lot of gauss plus vomit.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 07:24 AM, said:

So let's use the HBK-IIC as the example because that used to be a solid mech, in fact EmP used to use the 4 UAC2 Hunchie a decent amount for long range suppression where most used 2 ERPPC. I mean if you don't get any jams at first, with 5s of exposure you can get out ~111 damage (I'm too lazy to get the actual number, this is just DPS without jams for the 5s duration). Now your mileage may vary but typically you aren't poking for too long and if you do get jams you went back under cover.

But? I honestly don't see where you're going with this. The UAC2 DPS is good sure, but that looks like it needs a decent time to barrel down the enemy.

I think the existence of HAG threatens the plinking playstyle as a whole, because of the DPS nature of AC2 family, because now there's a burst-alpha that can shut them down effectively and is more easier to put together, while the AC2 family relies on hardpoint availability that only truly a few mechs have.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 07:24 AM, said:

However again, I support reducing the damage, increasing the heat, increasing the duration, or some combination of the three if it means we remove spread on these weapons just like I support removing spread from RACs.

I agree with the spread part. But the reduction of damage, I think of the HGR route where it has really small Optimal but very long max range.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 07:24 AM, said:

As for comparing them to MRMs, I get the notion, but given the cauldron and PGI have decided to balance by quirks (which I've said is the wrong move since quirks first got introduced) instead of actively trying to balance the tech bases, not really sure that's necessarily a salient point at this time.

... the MRMs, that are IS tech, on IS-Mech, that are typically god-quirked? Versus Clan-Mechs that are comparatively not as quirked?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 07:24 AM, said:

The fact LBX get more heat efficiency and range instead of more damage is also a shame.

Yeah.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 07:24 AM, said:

It's also worth noting that balancing weapons by hardpoint availability is probably something that should be avoided. Historically we have seen mech after mech be introduced that offers better hardpoints than what was available before and abused a weapon combination that just wasn't plausible before (or wasn't available to a good mech for it).

This is exactly the problem with MG boats like piranha, and AC boats like Juggernaut and Dire-Wolf. Could have introduced MG arrays in place of MGs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 08:15 AM, said:

It really hasn't replaced Gauss which is why they are trying to make it more attractive.

Yeah it doesn't. Gauss Vomit is strong as ever.

But between landing 15x2 PPFLD, than 5x12 PPFLD, you'd get more from HAG30s than GRs at this point. You know Quantity is Quality in it's own right.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 October 2023 - 03:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 18 October 2023 - 02:53 PM, said:

But? I honestly don't see where you're going with this. The UAC2 DPS is good sure, but that looks like it needs a decent time to barrel down the enemy.

I think the existence of HAG threatens the plinking playstyle as a whole, because of the DPS nature of AC2 family, because now there's a burst-alpha that can shut them down effectively and is more easier to put together, while the AC2 family relies on hardpoint availability that only truly a few mechs have.

They have different purposes, burst DPS punishes enemies caught in bad positions, burst damage like lasers is for poking. Now I'm not saying UAC2s couldn't use a boost to compete (they are a little on the hot side for both Clan and IS), but if there were more mechs to boat UAC2s, I'd take them over HAGs currently.

The6thMessenger, on 18 October 2023 - 02:53 PM, said:

I agree with the spread part. But the reduction of damage, I think of the HGR route where it has really small Optimal but very long max range.

Honestly, the mechanic is goofy. It might have made sense in MW4 with LBX where they didn't have multiple pellets so to simulate the inaccuracy it had more a falloff where other weapons didn't. In this game it makes less sense (especially since it requires a standard engine which is suboptimal for that sort of push style).

The6thMessenger, on 18 October 2023 - 02:53 PM, said:

... the MRMs, that are IS tech, on IS-Mech, that are typically god-quirked? Versus Clan-Mechs that are comparatively not as quirked?

I'm just referring to people bringing up MRMs in comparison.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 October 2023 - 05:29 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 05:04 PM, said:

They have different purposes, burst DPS punishes enemies caught in bad positions, burst damage like lasers is for poking. Now I'm not saying UAC2s couldn't use a boost to compete (they are a little on the hot side for both Clan and IS), but if there were more mechs to boat UAC2s, I'd take them over HAGs currently.

Fair, it's a 5-ton weapon, so there's not really a whole lot of performance to be expected, and it's entire schtick is that it's exactly dependent on being employed enmasse. And not a lot of mechs can do that.

Maybe the UAC2 would get better when -- or if -- they reworked UACs like they planned before: 0% jam chance, but hotter and longer CD. It's annoying to me that, they could push testing at live for new and untested weapons, but not give Navid-A1's UAC rework a chance.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 October 2023 - 05:04 PM, said:

Honestly, the mechanic is goofy. It might have made sense in MW4 with LBX where they didn't have multiple pellets so to simulate the inaccuracy it had more a falloff where other weapons didn't. In this game it makes less sense (especially since it requires a standard engine which is suboptimal for that sort of push style).

AFAIK yes, goofy but :shrug:

Maybe for HGR and IS-LB20X, it's goofy.

But HAGs occupy an extremely oppressive space, where it has both the damage and the range to participate, and it's reasonably clustered up close. As limiting as the spread by volley and COF can be, the sad reality is that if it does connect -- and often it can as people have the capacity to leverage especially the good players -- yes the Comps again -- it'll hit like a truck. I think the min-maxing philosophy is getting too undisciplined here.

[Samziel]

I don't like HAGs getting spread reduced even further because it unnecessarily buffs it short to medium range while long range it will spread the damage anyways. And in low tiers where people just stand still and stare it will wreck people max range and make the game unfun. Yes it is a skill issue but with such a low playerbase I don't want HAGs to scare them away.

Edited by Samziel, 18 October 2023 - 11:51 PM.

[Necroconvict]

Moadebe, on 18 October 2023 - 07:45 AM, said:

All the cauldron did with increasing the time between pellets is essentially give a ballistic weapon the same "duration" as a laser weapon and are applying the same logic as lasers to it "it spreads more now."

Meanwhile ignoring the fact it HAS replaced Gauss (your pinpoint argument is severely invalid) and AC10 / UAC10 on the clan side.

ALL of this nerf and buff on the spread and the duration is a REALLY sad attempt at trying to keep a shiny new toy "valid" for the current "meta" which is the snipe game. Like seriously. The MAIN thing that needs to happen is cut the range down to Heavy Gauss levels and it would fix ALL of it.

Heck even increase the spread after cutting the range. I could see that. But knowing WHY Heavy Gauss was kept at a low range when it was introduced only to see this fiasco with the HAGs is...something else.

Yes the pinpoint argument COULD be said for the heavy gauss. True. BUT...the damage alone of the Heavy Gauss caused plenty of people to start hollering about power creep. Which helped keep its range low. NOW....we know power creep was already happening from hardpoint inflation and the "New Mech Arms Race" and we introduce a weapon system with more damage per ton into the mix and scramble to make it fit a playstyle.

Make the HAGs range comparable to Heavy Gauss ranges. Increase the spread a bit if need be. Then try it out. It will keep Gauss and AC10/UAC10s where they are and need to be....AC20s might be in trouble then but at least its down to one weapon instead of 2 or 3. Its a step in the right direction.

I agree, and I've made similar suggestions. Perhaps leave the HAG 20 as is, but reduce the 30, and 40 respectively. For those that say, oh it's not a snipe weapon... than if it isn't... reducing the range shouldn't matter.. unless it actually is a powerful snipe weapon, and you just don't want to lose the power creep on your range.

[Runecarver]

Moadebe, on 18 October 2023 - 07:45 AM, said:

-snip-

Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles, or HAGs, are supposed to have long range as per their tabletop rules. Their long range is 17-24 hexes. For comparison, clan extended range large laser is 16-25 hexes and both inner spher and clan ERPPCs have a long range value of 15-23 hexes.

What they're NOT supposed to be, is pinpoint accurate and have extremely concentrated damage. They're supposed to be more like a high velocity LBX pellet weapon.

HAGs by their tabletop rules have a bonus to cluster rolls at short range, and a penalty at long range. They fire 20/ 30/ 40 single damage slugs that you first roll to see how many of which hit, then those are for the sake of easier damage allocation clumped into clusters of 5. And to stop them from becoming the ultimate critical damage seeker weapons. Tech base wise they were supposed to be the clan take on the MRM weapon concept (big damage in a single package), but more as a flak and anti-vehicle weapon.

Edited by Runecarver, 05 November 2023 - 04:12 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Let's be honest there for a second. HAGs gave yet another formidable poke and long range tool. Short range fighting has become a bloody joke

Runecarver, on 05 November 2023 - 02:50 AM, said:

What they're NOT supposed to be, is pinpoint accurate and have extremely concentrated damage. They're supposed to be more like a high velocity LBX pellet weapon.

HAGs by their tabletop rules have a bonus to cluster rolls at short range, and a penalty at long range. They fire 20/ 30/ 40 single damage slugs that you first roll to see how many of which hit, then those are for the sake of easier damage allocation clumped into clusters of 5. And to stop them from becoming the ultimate critical damage seeker weapons. Tech base wise they were supposed to be the clan take on the MRM weapon concept (big damage in a single package), but more as a flak and anti-vehicle weapon.

Yeah, but the Cauldron is a bunch of snipers and campers...what do you expect?

Edited by Weeny Machine, 05 November 2023 - 07:29 AM.

[KursedVixen]

VaelophisNyx, on 19 September 2023 - 05:08 PM, said:

genuinely, explain to me why having their spread REDUCED was a good thing
they already were far too capable of sniping before this patch, and probably needed a spread increase.

this makes me wonder what on earth PGI is thinking when it comes to balance, and is certainly reinforcing the mindset that they enjoy sniper gameplay and nothing else

the salt must flow.

Runecarver, on 05 November 2023 - 02:50 AM, said:

Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles, or HAGs, are supposed to have long range as per their tabletop rules. Their long range is 17-24 hexes. For comparison, clan extended range large laser is 16-25 hexes and both inner spher and clan ERPPCs have a long range value of 15-23 hexes.

What they're NOT supposed to be, is pinpoint accurate and have extremely concentrated damage. They're supposed to be more like a high velocity LBX pellet weapon.

HAGs by their tabletop rules have a bonus to cluster rolls at short range, and a penalty at long range. They fire 20/ 30/ 40 single damage slugs that you first roll to see how many of which hit, then those are for the sake of easier damage allocation clumped into clusters of 5. And to stop them from becoming the ultimate critical damage seeker weapons. Tech base wise they were supposed to be the clan take on the MRM weapon concept (big damage in a single package), but more as a flak and anti-vehicle weapon.

No on the MRM copy the ATM is the MRM copy HAGs are Heavy guass copy using a slightly better idea so you can mount them on arms.

[VeeOt Dragon]

Runecarver, on 05 November 2023 - 02:50 AM, said:

Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles, or HAGs, are supposed to have long range as per their tabletop rules. Their long range is 17-24 hexes. For comparison, clan extended range large laser is 16-25 hexes and both inner spher and clan ERPPCs have a long range value of 15-23 hexes.

What they're NOT supposed to be, is pinpoint accurate and have extremely concentrated damage. They're supposed to be more like a high velocity LBX pellet weapon.

HAGs by their tabletop rules have a bonus to cluster rolls at short range, and a penalty at long range. They fire 20/ 30/ 40 single damage slugs that you first roll to see how many of which hit, then those are for the sake of easier damage allocation clumped into clusters of 5. And to stop them from becoming the ultimate critical damage seeker weapons. Tech base wise they were supposed to be the clan take on the MRM weapon concept (big damage in a single package), but more as a flak and anti-vehicle weapon.

you know honestly i wouldn't mind seeing HAGs turned into a sort of Gauss Shotgun. let them keep the range just add a reasonable spread (perhaps wider spread the bigger the HAG). reasonable spread would be something like hitting all over an Assault at max effective with even maybe missing a few pellets where at mid range you can reliable put nearly all in the same component. you could even lower the heat gen just a little bit as well (still run hotter than standard Gauss though perhaps as hot as an AC/20). that would also open the door for IS Silver Bullet Gauss (something if i remember right is a shotgun-like weapon).

[The6thMessenger]

VeeOt Dragon, on 06 November 2023 - 08:41 AM, said:

you know honestly i wouldn't mind seeing HAGs turned into a sort of Gauss Shotgun. let them keep the range just add a reasonable spread (perhaps wider spread the bigger the HAG). reasonable spread would be something like hitting all over an Assault at max effective with even maybe missing a few pellets where at mid range you can reliable put nearly all in the same component. you could even lower the heat gen just a little bit as well (still run hotter than standard Gauss though perhaps as hot as an AC/20). that would also open the door for IS Silver Bullet Gauss (something if i remember right is a shotgun-like weapon).

Yeah, but the Cauldron likes their long-range Gauss-AC too much to do that.

Personally I too prefer pin-point HAGs, the duration already screws it over -- problem is range; the god damn range, lets it dump max 80 damage at 810m, on a spread that MRMs can only dream despite having basically the "same" damage.

[Widowmaker1981]

Moadebe, on 18 October 2023 - 07:45 AM, said:

ALL of this nerf and buff on the spread and the duration is a REALLY sad attempt at trying to keep a shiny new toy "valid" for the current "meta" which is the snipe game. Like seriously. The MAIN thing that needs to happen is cut the range down to Heavy Gauss levels and it would fix ALL of it.

While i agree that HAGs are currently too strong, i wouldnt equip them on anything if they had HGR range. Might as well not exist at that point, for me. (with a 500m optimal id use them, dont need them to be 'snipe' range, but making them brawl range with gauss charge? Yeah, dead to me, back to UAC10s.)

I think id go with nerfing the cooldown, hard. Let them keep their strong alpha, at the cost of worse DPS than Gauss.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 08 November 2023 - 06:02 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 November 2023 - 06:02 AM, said:

While i agree that HAGs are currently too strong, i wouldnt equip them on anything if they had HGR range. Might as well not exist at that point, for me. (with a 500m optimal id use them, dont need them to be 'snipe' range, but making them brawl range with gauss charge? Yeah, dead to me, back to UAC10s.)

I think id go with nerfing the cooldown, hard. Let them keep their strong alpha, at the cost of worse DPS than Gauss.

I don't think increasing their cooldown is a good idea i'd rather increase thier spread to make them not as good beyond 600 meters or so.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

We all seem to be dancing around the real issue, which is damage per volley. I think this and the cHLL are examples of weapons that offer too much damage for so little tonnage investment. While I think heat is still a good way to help balance it, I do think the high damage for low investment is part of the alpha problem. While these are typically a bit better balanced in the high tiers, I do think they present a problem in the lower tiers where players tend to be flat footed and give people care bear stares instead of twisting and moving like they probably should.

I do think the DPH for HAGs is too good, but I also think the damage volume is too high as well and would much rather see their cooldowns be under 6s as MWO I think deliberately tried to keep recycle times around or under 5s compared to MW4 which was more like 8s max (15 damage cERPPCs and 29 damage Heavy Gauss both had 8s recycle times then). IMO heavy lasers could also use some reworking anyway since the HLL is the only one that feels worth it.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 November 2023 - 09:07 AM, said:

We all seem to be dancing around the real issue, which is damage per volley. I think this and the cHLL are examples of weapons that offer too much damage for so little tonnage investment. While I think heat is still a good way to help balance it, I do think the high damage for low investment is part of the alpha problem. While these are typically a bit better balanced in the high tiers, I do think they present a problem in the lower tiers where players tend to be flat footed and give people care bear stares instead of twisting and moving like they probably should.

I do think the DPH for HAGs is too good, but I also think the damage volume is too high as well and would much rather see their cooldowns be under 6s as MWO I think deliberately tried to keep recycle times around or under 5s compared to MW4 which was more like 8s max (15 damage cERPPCs and 29 damage Heavy Gauss both had 8s recycle times then). IMO heavy lasers could also use some reworking anyway since the HLL is the only one that feels worth it.

heavy large is as hot as a ERPPC yet for 5 tons more on the IS side you get the same exact gun, which is colder and fires faster, your not pointing that out?

CERPPC does 10+5 in splash the only gun that does 15 pinpoint is the heavy PPC

Edited by KursedVixen, 08 November 2023 - 09:14 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KursedVixen, on 08 November 2023 - 09:12 AM, said:

yet for 5 tons more on the IS side you get the same exact gun, which is colder and fires faster, your not pointing that out?
CERPPC does 10+5 in splash the only gun that does 15 pinpoint is the heavy PPC

You seem to grossly underestimate how beneficial the tonnage savings both are, 5 tons for the cHLL vs BLC and 4 tons for cERPPC vs Heavy PPC. I don't care to get into a extensive argument with you over something everyone understands, that Clan tech is better than IS tech without quirks.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 November 2023 - 09:23 AM, said:

You seem to grossly underestimate how beneficial the tonnage savings both are, 5 tons for the cHLL vs BLC and 4 tons for cERPPC vs Heavy PPC. I don't care to get into a extensive argument with you over something everyone understands, that Clan tech is better than IS tech without quirks.

And I'm sure you also fail to remember Many clan mechs are omnis with fixed equipment that cannot change to ferro or endo unless it's already there and cannot change their engines.

Again Clan ppc does 10+5 splash heavy PPc does 15 IS also has way more mechs to choose from...Don't like a stalker get a battlemaster dont like the batelmaste rgte an atlas, so on and so on.... there are many cases where IS tehc is better X pulse. binary laser is just straight out better..... Rac 5 heavy gauss light gauss light ppc.

Edited by KursedVixen, 08 November 2023 - 09:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KursedVixen, on 08 November 2023 - 09:33 AM, said:

And I'm sure you also fail to remember Many clan mechs are omnis with fixed equipment that cannot change to ferro or endo unless it's already there and cannot change their engines.

And thus the problem with introducing Omnis as they are in this game, it gets worse for the IS though where they have standard engine'd omnis like the Strider. Regardless once PGI added Clan battlemechs and omnis that were better configured with their fixed equipment, you can no longer use that as an argument for having broken weapons, sorry, that's a job better suited to quirks.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 November 2023 - 09:41 AM.