54 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Haipyng, on 26 September 2023 - 09:18 AM, said:

Have to disagree. Shooting 4 ER LL at you in peek-and-shoot while readjusting means that for each trade the XPulse is coming out on the botton.

I don't disagree with that, XLPL take a while to overcome the lack of up front damage. However that doesn't really address what I was getting at. You can shoot 2/2 cERLLs in long range, but if you tried to do that in a brawl with something like HMLs or anything like that and you find yourself very unhappy with the results because brawls are typically faster paced. Things move in and out of your FoV faster than they do in long range fights so snappy weapons are MORE of a requirement compared to long range poke fests.

DPS we use to average but damage is done in steps, and the problem currently with XLPLs, RACs, most DPS weapons in general is that most of them take too long to just break even with the damage of poke weapons (8+ seconds in the case of XLPLs for example).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 September 2023 - 09:35 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 26 September 2023 - 12:50 AM, said:

Even DPS builds should try to focus on component instead of spraying it all over...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 07:34 AM, said:

This. DPS builds offer quicker TTK for those with good aim or against targets that are caught in a bad position (such as being caught flat-footed, in the wide open, etc) at the expense of more exposure for responses in kind. That or high enough damage saturation to put an opponent in a pressured situation (ie ~100%+ DPS over standard builds).

Sure, but see the thing is that, DPS builds, with pinpoint, has different demands. A DPS build say AC-XPL, is a bit more forgiving than a laser-vomit -- as in requiring precision. Miss one volley, just stand-closer and fire again. But a Gauss-Vomit, hell a Gauss-PPC, miss one shot, that's a lot bigger of a waste.

With DPS weapons, you can focus it, but you don't have to -- but the balance talk instead rotates around that you have to. And that is what I would rather focus, on the portion of DPS weapons that you don't have to.

It's the point of the other weapon systems, and the other builds that "you have to". So mechanically, I don't see the point of another weapon system being focused into another "you have to" through comparison, and that is why I don't like the comparison to poke builds.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 07:34 AM, said:

I think your second batch of numbers would be a decent starting point, though thinking about it a bit more, the heat can probably come up a bit (DPH is probably the more important metric here than HPS as HPS is what limits the ability to sustain the burst). so you can probably return the numbers to 40% of the LPL or 50% if you want to err on the side of caution.

I assume 40-50% of LPL with heat? That sounds like it'll generate heat faster with high HPS. It's a surprise to me that it's already equalizing with the PLs just because CD. I'd rather have it less dependent on Heat-Sinks, but here we are.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 07:34 AM, said:

To be clear though, this doesn't compete with LPLs. Regardless of what PGI or the Cauldron thinks LPLs are more to offer more heat efficient complements to ERMLs and supplement laser vomit than be for DPS (though the DPS is handy when combating pushes). LPLs are more competition for LLs than XPLs are for either.

Which one? Live XLPL? my 1st XLPL? Or the 2nd XLPL?

Competition in the matter of what sense? Like a replacement to build?

I see more use with XPLs being cold AF, but not as cold as ACs, as they have the versatility not to be that dependent on heatsinks, and can be better readily used with other weapons. Alternatively that which that can be amassed more by +HSL, if people really want a poke build.

Yeah sure, it's not competitive with LLs/LPLs, but see the point is that it doesn't have to, when it's doing it's own thing.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 September 2023 - 04:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 26 September 2023 - 04:13 PM, said:

Sure, but see the thing is that, DPS builds, with pinpoint, has different demands. A DPS build say AC-XPL, is a bit more forgiving than a laser-vomit -- as in requiring precision. Miss one volley, just stand-closer and fire again. But a Gauss-Vomit, hell a Gauss-PPC, miss one shot, that's a lot bigger of a waste.

I mean that's really true of any weapon, the same is true for DPS builds the moment you go undercover etc. The question is how reliably can people land those shots and Gauss vomit isn't really hard to land solid shots. AC/XPL builds would be harder in comparison because of the velocity desync such that you are probably missing half your shots of one of the weapons comparatively, it's the main reason I stopped using cUAC10/cUAC5 mixed builds actually, cAC10s and cUAC5s or just straight cUAC5s actually sync up much nicer.

The6thMessenger, on 26 September 2023 - 04:13 PM, said:

With DPS weapons, you can focus it, but you don't have to -- but the balance talk instead rotates around that you have to. And that is what I would rather focus, on the portion of DPS weapons that you don't have to.

It's the point of the other weapon systems, and the other builds that "you have to". So mechanically, I don't see the point of another weapon system being focused into another "you have to" through comparison, and that is why I don't like the comparison to poke builds.

So this is the thing though, if you are spreading your damage, you need even more damage saturation to overcome that deficiency. So you have two real options at that point:

• Increase single weapon DPS and let heat/ghost heat do its thing on limiting how much damage you can burst for which really just increases the tonnage required to make it worth it.
  
• Increase the heat efficiency of the damage and force it to be boated in significant quantity to be any sort of useful (which is more AC5/AC10 territory) or have enough armor to justify the face time. Like happens with other lower damage low heat options.

The6thMessenger, on 26 September 2023 - 04:13 PM, said:

Which one? Live XLPL? my 1st XLPL? Or the 2nd XLPL?

Competition in the matter of what sense? Like a replacement to build?

I see more use with XPLs being cold AF, but not as cold as ACs, as they have the versatility not to be that dependent on heatsinks, and can be better readily used with other weapons. Alternatively that which that can be amassed more by +HSL, if people really want a poke build.

Yeah sure, it's not competitive with LLs/LPLs, but see the point is that it doesn't have to, when it's doing it's own thing.

All of the different XPLs (current, 1st suggestion, 2nd suggestion, etc)? By competition I mean purpose/role overlap. Even at half damage there's no risk of people swapping out their LPLs/LLs for them in their laser vomit builds.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 05:18 PM, said:

I mean that's really true of any weapon, the same is true for DPS builds the moment you go undercover etc. The question is how reliably can people land those shots and Gauss vomit isn't really hard to land solid shots. AC/XPL builds would be harder in comparison because of the velocity desync such that you are probably missing half your shots of one of the weapons comparatively, it's the main reason I stopped using cUAC10/cUAC5 mixed builds actually, cAC10s and cUAC5s or just straight cUAC5s actually sync up much nicer.

It's not hard, in a sense that you're a comp guy with good aim, but yeah, good aim in general. My 92-pt alpha on my dire, 6x ERML + 2x LPL + 2x GR, my main-stay is the laser, because it's the gauss that needs preparation and doesn't necessarily mean I can fire them. I usually charge while the laser is burning, so I can shoot the gauss at the end.

But as for the desync, yeah it's some difficulty, but see that's the point of it being able to do so several times more, that makes it forgiving. Such as in the case of an Anti-Materiel Rifle that requires precision, but a machine-gun can run the numbers.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 05:18 PM, said:

So this is the thing though, if you are spreading your damage, you need even more damage saturation to overcome that deficiency.

Not really disagreeing with it, that's what the high DPS is for.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 05:18 PM, said:

All of the different XPLs (current, 1st suggestion, 2nd suggestion, etc)? By competition I mean purpose/role overlap. Even at half damage there's no risk of people swapping out their LPLs/LLs for them in their laser vomit builds.

Exactly, because the current thinking is how they fit into vomit builds -- why you cited Vomit builds. But if you guys really like your poke, here's a third option:

L-XPL:
> Damage: 8.00 (72.72% of LPL)
> Duration: 0.25 (33.33% of LPL)
> Cooldown: 1.5s (50% of LPL)
> Heat: 3.5 (50% of LPL)
> DPS: 4.571 (+56.02% of LPL)
> +1 HSL (Can fire 4, or 33 before GH. Note that LPLs do 33 on max GH as well.)

M-XPL:
> Damage: 4 (66.66% of MPL)
> Duration: 0.2 (33.33% of MPL)
> Cooldown: 1.3s (46.42% of MPL)
> Heat: 1.9 (50% of MPL)
> DPS: 2.667 (+51.51% of MPL)
> +2 HSL (Can fire 8, or 32 damage before GH.)

S-XPL:
> Damage: 2.75 (68.75% of SPL)
> Duration: 0.15 (30% of SPL)
> Cooldown: 1.05s (47.62% of SPL)
> Heat: 0.465 (50% of SPL)
> DPS: 2.291667 (+48.81% to SPL)

This is pretty much the current XPL, but better, in a sense by frontloading damage, while minimizing burst duration. Damage-wise, the standard LPLs can do more in a single poke by basic virtue of more damage. But the XPLs have near instantaneous burst and can do so more frequently, with generally +50% bonus DPS, and is colder.

My target trend is actually -1 damage from the standard lasers, the opposite of PLs, but the heat-differential is handled by higher damage/heat due to half-heat but between 66-72% damage instead, so it's not a 1:1 change.

I'm not surprised if these numbers are broken, but it seems to be the most compliant to the meta while retaining a face-time aspect.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 September 2023 - 06:39 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 26 September 2023 - 06:06 PM, said:

It's not hard, in a sense that you're a comp guy with good aim, but yeah, good aim in general. My 92-pt alpha on my dire, 6x ERML + 2x LPL + 2x GR, my main-stay is the laser, because it's the gauss that needs preparation and doesn't necessarily mean I can fire them. I usually charge while the laser is burning, so I can shoot the gauss at the end.

But as for the desync, yeah it's some difficulty, but see that's the point of it being able to do so several times more, that makes it forgiving. Such as in the case of an Anti-Materiel Rifle that requires precision, but a machine-gun can run the numbers.

Forgiving isn't the term I would use because the DPS boost as currently doesn't really afford you any misses. If you are missing a bunch of shots especially then you are behind the curve. Heating those shots is very important for all weapons. That's a big difference between this game and other FPS. In other FPS, missing one shot in a spray isn't as big as missing an AWP shot for example, you can recover a lot faster because the weapons are faster firing and have high DPS which is limited by recoil patterns. No build really has that high enough DPS that can land shots reliably enough for me to really put into that category because this game just works differently than other FPS with how you build your arsenal.

The6thMessenger, on 26 September 2023 - 06:06 PM, said:

Not really disagreeing with it, that's what the high DPS is for.

Maybe with your first set of numbers it might be, but I doubt it.

The6thMessenger, on 26 September 2023 - 06:06 PM, said:

3rd suggestion

Meh, I liked the 2nd suggestion the most. I played with the current iteration and they are just too hot for sustained but don't deal enough damage to be burst oriented (the difference really comes down to what your "alphas" to overheat is).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 September 2023 - 06:30 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 06:29 PM, said:

Forgiving isn't the term I would use because the DPS boost as currently doesn't really afford you any misses. If you are missing a bunch of shots especially then you are behind the curve. Heating those shots is very important for all weapons.

Kinda why I am looking for a low-heat route.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 06:29 PM, said:

Meh, I liked the 2nd suggestion the most. I played with the current iteration and they are just too hot for sustained but don't deal enough damage to be burst oriented (the difference really comes down to what your "alphas" to overheat is).

I think burst-wise, they could at least unlock the HSL for the XPLs, so players can put more. But at a minimum, right now as current iteration, I'd settle for double damage, heat, and CD. As in the XLPL would do 4.4 damage, 2.7 heat, at 0.5s CD. Front-loading will do some good.

Unless they just make it so that X-Pulse are like ER to lasers. Might be easier that way, bland, but easier.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 September 2023 - 06:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

IDK about allowing burst damage to escape HSL as you could make joke mechs that are capable of burning down mechs faster than they really should, but depends on if there are weapons that synergize with that as well.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 06:59 PM, said:

IDK about allowing burst damage to escape HSL as you could make joke mechs that are capable of burning down mechs faster than they really should, but depends on if there are weapons that synergize with that as well.

Well, it works around the concern with GH in the first place, minimizing alpha. A 5-XLPL battlemaster will only do 11 damage per click, yeah you can click twice a second for 22, but that is still 5 cycles or 2 second to match a burst of a 5-LPL battlemaster.

Yes, you can burst 8 times before another LPL shoots, but who in their right mind would expose themselves and just tank your incoming damage?

Even at 8 LPLs with no GH, it's still just 17.6. Not only that consumed a lot of tonnage to make that happen, it's ROF would mean it'll quickly heat up and deter extended use (made worse by the sacrifice of HS). You say Joke mechs. But if they can succeed with this awful trash of a joke weapon, they deserve the win.

Now to be fair, yes HSL tweak won't fix the weapon. But if it's intent is to take the place of standard LPLs on build, this would certainly be nothing but good until an actual rework is done.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 September 2023 - 07:13 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeah, sure, but like I said about their current stats, they don't have high enough DPS for bursting and are too hot for sustained so if you were to boost their DPS to be higher yes I would be a bit more concerned. Sure currently they it's a bit of joke but that's because the weapons just aren't there yet.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MXPL feel better because they have closer to 2x the DPS of MPLs. I wouldn't say they are in the perfect spot because face time in brawls cannot be understated (this puts them more in a fringe role), but they are definitely in a better spot than the other two.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 September 2023 - 08:16 PM, said:

MXPL feel better because they have closer to 2x the DPS of MPLs. I wouldn't say they are in the perfect spot because face time in brawls cannot be understated (this puts them more in a fringe role), but they are definitely in a better spot than the other two.

Lol.

Pitched it on the Cauldron discord, the 2nd proposal that you liked so much, it's so overtuned I got told off. That one's on you. You should probably be the ones talking to them, cause you're the comp.

Also they said that the point of the X-Pulses is exactly the weakness of not frontloading, so they deemed the 1st proposal OP, even though it's 25% dps, that is waaay lower than the live DPS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 29 September 2023 - 07:37 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Like I said, we aren't a monolith.