77 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

MOPCKOE, on 21 September 2023 - 02:47 PM, said:

You're lying when you talk about armor. Since IS mechs are slower due to the inability to put XL, plus they have a smaller radius and need to be closer to the line of fire, you would rather have half of your torso ripped off than you would realize the measly +8 increase in your armor.

In any case, this measly armor increase doesn't matter for current HAGs and clan lasers doing 60-80 alpha damage every few seconds at 600+ range.

You're looking at numbers, but you're not looking at the right ones. Go out to nav-alpha and compare a Centurion to a Huntsman. Notice the difference in armor, notice what applying skill points does to that. Now notice the 25 to 40 percent cooldown buff that Centurion gets over the Huntsman... or in fact most other clan mechs... and you'll see the difference in rate of fire makes up a LOT of ground.

You want to stand across an open field from a sniper, you get what you get. But if you work into position and use those superior quirks, you'll come away just fine. Competitive, even.

[VaelophisNyx]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 September 2023 - 06:44 PM, said:

You want to stand across an open field from a sniper, you get what you get. But if you work into position and use those superior quirks, you'll come away just fine. Competitive, even.

honestly there's not a lot of maps that don't have the problem of being purely sniper maps with next to 0 cover outside of tall pillars that one or two mechs can make use of.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly though i have many gripes with the game the Clan/IS balance isn't really one of them. i'm an IS loyalist and almost never play clan mechs at all and i do fine (before you ask no using IS mechs is not why i am still T3 after all these years, thats mostly because i refuse to use meta for the sake of meta mostly and have a few handicaps that make certain play styles more difficult. i play for fun.)

IS mechs tend to have more armor and most of their weapons run a little cooler while clan have lighter equipment with longer range but tend to run hot. yes HAGs are currently a bit overpowered (and the patch didn't help) i personally think increasing their spread would help a LOT, the last thing the game needs is another sniper weapon.

getting off that topic lets look at another weapon system. Clan vs IS LRM, Clan LRM are far lighter but they fire in a stream making them easier to dodge or for AMS to take out where IS LRMs all fire in a single volley making them much harder to dodge and losing less to AMS. this makes in my Opinion IS LRM better than Clan. yeah a clan mech can boat more but it doesn't help when its easier for the target to get out of the way before your volley is finished (it also lets the IS LRM mech get out of the enemy's firing line quicker)

[VaelophisNyx]

Clan LRMs however do let you deal damage if someone gets in your face, where IS LRMs are unusable closer than 120m

[martian]

VaelophisNyx, on 22 September 2023 - 01:22 AM, said:

Clan LRMs however do let you deal damage if someone gets in your face, where IS LRMs are unusable closer than 120m

In theory, yes. Practically, the damage of Clan LRMs inside their minimum range is not too high, unless you are at the edge of the minimum range.

[Curccu]

martian, on 22 September 2023 - 02:49 AM, said:

In theory, yes. Practically, the damage of Clan LRMs inside their minimum range is not too high, unless you are at the edge of the minimum range.

Yep I find it funny that someone with lurms desperately shoots my mech within min range in panic when I'm pushing them, they don't do anything really.

[martian]

Curccu, on 22 September 2023 - 04:55 AM, said:

Yep I find it funny that someone with lurms desperately shoots my mech within min range in panic when I'm pushing them, they don't do anything really.

Some scratched armor, typically. Unless I have a cherry red CT, there is usually not much to worry about.

VaelophisNyx, on 22 September 2023 - 01:22 AM, said:

IS LRMs are unusable closer than 120m

Actually, the minimum range of Inner Sphere Long Range Missiles is 180 metres.

[MOPCKOE]

ScrapIron Prime, on 21 September 2023 - 06:44 PM, said:

You're looking at numbers, but you're not looking at the right ones. Go out to nav-alpha and compare a Centurion to a Huntsman. Notice the difference in armor, notice what applying skill points does to that. Now notice the 25 to 40 percent cooldown buff that Centurion gets over the Huntsman... or in fact most other clan mechs... and you'll see the difference in rate of fire makes up a LOT of ground.

You want to stand across an open field from a sniper, you get what you get. But if you work into position and use those superior quirks, you'll come away just fine. Competitive, even.

No, thank you, I’d rather go into the GAME ITSELF and see that the centurion is a garbage, unused mechanism, with some ridiculous +10 to the reload speed - for some comic scooping at 5-10 damage, since it is impossible to place anything in this 50-ton misunderstanding.
And then there's that stupid ballistic arm that's always kicking the ground and forcing you to expose your entire mech to fire most of the time.

At the same time, the vapor eagle can carry two hag30 at 70 km.h for 60 point damage at 800m (+jj + ammo), and the huntsman you mentioned has a 4SRM6a + 6SPL (48+30 damage) part-destroying assembly at 81 km.h. + jj

I'm not sure if your centurion can carry more than three srms without removing everything that can be removed, since I don't bother with outright outdated junk.

And you will hobble around on your centurion, barely overtaking the Assaults on your light engine with a speed of 70, trying to at least get closer to the “SNIPER” (lol), while all your armor is erased.

I CAN do this and get a good score at the end of the match, but it will be uncomfortable and uninteresting, most likely once a night for fun, after which I'll think "what rubbish these IS are" and go back to normal mechs.

Edited by MOPCKOE, 22 September 2023 - 06:20 AM.

[pbiggz]

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

No, thank you, I’d rather go into the GAME ITSELF and see that the centurion is a garbage, unused mechanism, with some ridiculous +10 to the reload speed - for some comic scooping at 5-10 damage, since it is impossible to place anything in this 50-ton misunderstanding.

Thats kind of objectively false.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

At the same time, the vapor eagle can carry two hag30 at 70 km.h for 60 point damage at 800m (+jj + ammo), and the huntsman you mentioned has a 4SRM6a + 6SPL (48+30 damage) part-destroying assembly at 81 km.h. + jj

Both of those mechs are, especially relative to the centurion, made of literal paper.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

I'm not sure if your centurion can carry more than three srms without removing everything that can be removed, since I don't bother with outright outdated junk.

Given your account was created in 2014 my guess is you've come back to a radically different meta, none of your mechs work, and you don't know why. This comment kind of reinforces that.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

And you will hobble around on your centurion, barely overtaking the Assaults on your light engine with a speed of 70, trying to at least get closer to the “SNIPER” (lol), while all your armor is erased.

And this comment kind of reinforces that you're having a bad time dealing with snipers. If you are loafing across open territory at 70kph with no cover, you're getting eaten alive, that's pretty much always been true, even during lowreybalance.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

I CAN do this and get a good score at the end of the match, but it will be uncomfortable and uninteresting, most likely once a night for fun, after which I'll think "what rubbish these IS are" and go back to normal mechs.

Yeah your problem is your builds, not the quality of the tech. IS mechs are quite formidable, they just build very differently from clan mechs and are passively much more robust and durable than clan mechs, which are pretty much universally glass cannons.

[Haipyng]

This is an old debate. Early on in MWO they wanted to more closely mimic the game. It was pretty good as far as you can make a FPS mimic a TT game. Then clans came in. In TT you didn't see a mash of IS and Clan mechs fighting on the same team. Clans had Stars, IS had lances. The Clans had fewer mechs in a battle group, but better mechs.

The early IS mechs are not competitive to run. All mechs have their interesting points and can be fun to run, but not competitive to other mechs.

[CFC Conky]

Hello all,

Back in 2017-2018 the IS vs Clan tech debates were in full swing, even more than today. To test the theories/arguments, I created two alt accounts, one using only IS mechs, the other, Clan stuff. Today, as then, the stats of each account are nearly identical. To me this indicates player skill has more to do with performance than the actual mechs and/or weapons themselves - no great discovery there.

Currently, each account has a smattering of mechs from the opposite tech tree (free mechs), with little difference in overall account performance.

In my opinion, when it comes to the introduction of new weapons, and to a lesser extent mechs, the lack of test servers being used to check the performance of new weapons/mechs with an eye to their effect on maps/game modes needs to be taken into account. It takes longer to adjust things now.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 22 September 2023 - 07:10 AM.

[MOPCKOE]

Why are you trying to get into my identity and my account?

I have no problems with clan mech builds.
They are always better, faster, more agile, more enjoyable to play.

For example, a 4x15 LRM TBR makes the CPLT catapult simply unnecessary junk - it gets hot, it has a stupid XL, there are no micro lasers with the normal 5 units of damage, and even a tag to boot, so many LRM15s with a 20 damage lasers just won’t fit there, even with a dead XL.
The catapult barely jumps, it’s all kind of clumsy. Just trash.
With the exception of that 6SRM assembly, of course, which simply received cheating +hsl IN MANUAL MODE.
But the point is that these IS mechs should simply be strewn with these HSLs to balance out their artificially made shortcomings.

I'm discussing the obvious disadvantages of the game's characters being forced to use inferior weapons and equipment simply because they are "inner sphere".

I have no problems with builds in 3202 with an abundance of Grimmech, Mechspecs and YouTube.

2014...damn. In fact, I’ve been playing actively for the last couple of years, all the time before that I just couldn’t figure it out and sometimes I went to die on my only Jenner, since in the PDF guide to the MЦO it was called a good affordable mech for a beginner =-)

Edited by MOPCKOE, 22 September 2023 - 07:39 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

Why are you trying to get into my identity and my account?

I have no problems with clan mech builds.
They are always better, faster, more agile, more enjoyable to play.

Could be worse, he could have looked your stats up and made generalizations based on those.

And always faster? You sure you're not generalizing there? Or just talking about certain weight classes?

[pbiggz]

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

Why are you trying to get into my identity and my account?

I have no problems with clan mech builds.
They are always better, faster, more agile, more enjoyable to play.

So you prefer clan mechs for being nimble gunboats rather than the IS high armor high structure high DPS tank. That is fine.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

For example, a 4x15 LRM TBR makes the CPLT catapult simply unnecessary junk - it gets hot, it has a stupid XL, there are no micro lasers with the normal 5 units of damage, and even a tag to boot, so many LRM15s with a 20 damage lasers just won’t fit there, even with a dead XL.
The catapult barely jumps, it’s all kind of clumsy. Just trash.

Both these mechs are trash. LRMs have been underperformers for ages. Being Clan or IS had no impact on this.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

With the exception of that 6SRM assembly, of course, which simply received cheating +hsl IN MANUAL MODE.
But the point is that these IS mechs should simply be strewn with these HSLs to balance out their artificially made shortcomings.

This is basically what has already been done. You seem laser focused on not acknowledging that.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

I'm discussing the obvious disadvantages of the game's characters being forced to use inferior weapons and equipment simply because they are "inner sphere".

IS equipment isn't inferior, its different. It plays differently, it builds differently, its used differently. If you try to build an IS mech to match a clan mech shot for shot, yeah, you can't do that. You aren't supposed to. The tech bases build and behave fundamentally differently in MWO.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

I have no problems with builds in 3202 with an abundance of Grimmech, Mechspecs and YouTube.

Evidently you are struggling.

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

2014...damn. In fact, I’ve been playing actively for the last couple of years, all the time before that I just couldn’t figure it out and sometimes I went to die on my only Jenner, since in the PDF guide to the MЦO it was called a good affordable mech for a beginner =-)

ok.

[MOPCKOE]

pbiggz, on 22 September 2023 - 07:48 AM, said:

IS equipment isn't inferior, its different. It plays differently, it builds differently, its used differently. If you try to build an IS mech to match a clan mech shot for shot, yeah, you can't do that. You aren't supposed to. The tech bases build and behave fundamentally differently in MWO.

what a fantasy you say lol xD

it's literally the SAME equipment, but
1) heavier
2) eats up more slots
3) smaller radius
4) rides a dead XL or a slow LE

pbiggz, on 22 September 2023 - 07:48 AM, said:

Оба эти механизма - мусор. LRM уже давно неэффективны. Принадлежность к клану или ИГ не имела на это никакого влияния.

LRM are killing this game. They nullify dynamics and initiative, and fly over any hills, of which there are so few in the current maps. It’s just that lately everyone has become accustomed to sitting around the corner and waiting for a stupid rush.

It just rains on you out of nowhere, and removes parts of the hull while you barely drag yourself to cover, which still misses half the missiles.

Edited by MOPCKOE, 22 September 2023 - 08:04 AM.

[CFC Conky]

MOPCKOE said:

1695398203[/url]' post='6513393']




LRM are killing this game. They nullify dynamics and initiative, and fly over any hills, of which there are so few in the current maps. It’s just that lately everyone has become accustomed to sitting around the corner and waiting for a stupid rush.

It just rains on you out of nowhere, and removes parts of the hull while you barely drag yourself to cover, which still misses half the missiles.

With all due respect, this statement, in a general game sense, is utterly false.

You are either trolling us, or you really need to work on your game.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 22 September 2023 - 08:31 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Plus you'll note that Clan vs IS LRMs have more differences than just the weight of the launcher. Here's a hint... AMS. Its easier to shoot down clan missiles.

But again, its PAINFULLY easy to avoid LRMs in general right now, they're a vastly under-performing weapon. You have a legit gripe with the Hyper Assault Gauss weapons, but LRMs are not where the contention is.

If, however, you are intent on playing LRM mechs, clan or IS, then you'll get better match scores and more consistent match scores by not boating them. Mix LRMs with a credible medium laser armament and fight at 400m... get locks yourself, don't wait for others to get them for you. The mechs that field nothing but LRM launchers only do well in teams, as a general rule.

[Vieterihiiri]

I´m sorry, what? IS mechs suck? Even heavy clanners are made of goddamn paper, you lose half of your armor the first time someone looks at you angrily. If there was no terrain to peek-a-boo around, IS mechs would win every match every day.

[JediPanther]

MOPCKOE, on 22 September 2023 - 07:16 AM, said:

Why are you trying to get into my identity and my account?

I have no problems with clan mech builds.
They are always better, faster, more agile, more enjoyable to play.

For example, a 4x15 LRM TBR makes the CPLT catapult simply unnecessary junk - it gets hot, it has a stupid XL, there are no micro lasers with the normal 5 units of damage, and even a tag to boot, so many LRM15s with a 20 damage lasers just won’t fit there, even with a dead XL.
The catapult barely jumps, it’s all kind of clumsy. Just trash.

Rebuild it. The catapults are far from trash. Switch to lfe if you have xl so much. You want it to jump then max out jump jets and the lump jet tree. You want it to out tank an atlas max armor and torso twist. Rebuild it to suit how you want it work. I have the timby as well. I'll take the catapults over them for is and laser builds most of the time.

[MOPCKOE]

RickySpanish, on 21 September 2023 - 03:15 PM, said:

Binary Laser just gave IS Lights and Mediums one hell of an extra punch.

https://mwo.nav-alph...df9726f9_WLF-1A

43 damage alpha with huge beam duration decrease. You are practically doing 2 AC-20s worth of damage. Yeah OK you have to stare for a split second, but Jesus you're in a 35 ton Light. You can alpha that twice more or less back to back, 86 damage and 120kph to reposition.

Do you understand that this thing basically doesn’t cool down?
It shoots once every half a minute, a little further than its nose, and half the damage is smeared into nothing in these mocking 1.5 seconds.
You have 2 unnecessary slots for additional hat sync, but hello, you are in the IS.

Now let's ask ourselves what a difference a couple of extra hat syncs would have made in this build without the mech in the humiliated IS? Would she become an OP? No, it would be the same semi-playable garbage, only with a little smoother and more enjoyable gameplay