22 replies to this topic

[Necroconvict]

So rocket launchers.... Do any of the missile skills work in a way that matters... with them? Obviously they aren't getting a refill, or more ammo, but I'd love to see it get a few more missiles with the skill purchased since it can't get ammo. It probably wouldn't be worth it... but an idea. Does the spread reduction work? And I presume the Crits are still super bad? At least how rockets are used currently as a first strike weapon...?

[LordNothing]

i think spread and crit nodes work, not ammo though unfortunately. i suggested making a feature that would let you fire again for each node unlocked. cauldron tried to make rls fire twice, but it was pulled at the last minute for technical reasons. though i dont think rockets as implemented are useful, they were somewhat useful in solaris because 1v1, but i think they need a rework now.

i think they should be made single fire per rocket (no reloads, you can fire an rl10 10x for example), with a short cd and a huge damage buff (4-6 per) and a moderate spread buff (make it sort of like hag/rac). ammo skills would add 1-3 (depends on rl size) extra rocket per node.

wouldn't mind seeing spread and ammo nodes unified and apply to everything that uses those features. would make 4 nodes each without changing the value per node. both the spread reduction and ammo increase are anemic for all weapons, so stacking to 4 nodes would be awesome. especially on missile+ballistic builds and their ammo usage. and that would apply to rockets too.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 September 2023 - 01:24 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Necroconvict, on 25 September 2023 - 09:51 PM, said:

So rocket launchers.... Do any of the missile skills work in a way that matters... with them? Obviously they aren't getting a refill, or more ammo, but I'd love to see it get a few more missiles with the skill purchased since it can't get ammo. It probably wouldn't be worth it... but an idea. Does the spread reduction work? And I presume the Crits are still super bad? At least how rockets are used currently as a first strike weapon...?

That's a good question. I doubt it, because they are technically rockets, not missiles...
But it would be interesting to hear from someone who knows for sure.

[Andrewlik]

They could theoretically make them "really long reload", like 2 minute reload, rather than single shot

[Haipyng]

They are usually only mounted if you for some reason have an extra slot and tonnage. Most would argue if you did, your build is wrong. Their single-shot nature is not useful and doesn't do enough damage to justify a single-shot weapon.

[Necroconvict]

Well a long reload I wouldn't mind, and I kinda liked the idea that maybe it could simply enhance your rockets fired.... not sure by how much, but an increase in all 3 sizes. I still think they in SOME ways might be underpowered... that's only because if I go into the training grounds at a range of 51... as close as I can get... even 3 of them... seem underwhelming. Now I know there's the suicide Jav build... stuff like that.

I'd also be interested in for each point you put in (obviously only 2 points max) it could give a half reload for 1 point in, and a full reload for both points in... and still possibly add that to a timer. I'd think 1 minute would be a decent timer, just like arty, coolshot and the like.

As for if it's a good build to use them or not.. and the phrase some would argue.. some would argue weather we were born, or hatched, the color of the sky, and if the worlds are round or flat... one could argue anything. lol!

Thanks for humoring my questions, and adding thoughts!

[LordNothing]

Haipyng, on 26 September 2023 - 08:19 AM, said:

They are usually only mounted if you for some reason have an extra slot and tonnage. Most would argue if you did, your build is wrong. Their single-shot nature is not useful and doesn't do enough damage to justify a single-shot weapon.

usually only the 10, if i have a ton or a ton and a half, im better with a heat sink, more ammo, a targeting computer, anything other than an rl15 or 20. incidentally the only kill i ever got with a single rocket launcher, was an rl10, in the head of a vomit grasshopper. since nothing on the is side costs half a ton that isnt ammo or a laser, and the next engine up costs more than half a ton. ive gotten kills with bunched rockets, or in eq during an infinite ammo event. but that was the only one i got as intended.

besides rocket launchers are kind of made redundant by mrms and srms. those weapons are more valuable because they can fire again. do we really need another spam damage weapon? i hate to advocate removal of useless equipment, but its prudent. a repurposing would be better by far. single fire, like an explosive narc, with splash and/or high damage and you can fire one at a time until the rack is empty. more hitpoints so it can survive 2 ams units would also be nice. make it more ballistic-like. we dont have a ppfld missile system and i think it would be a good fit.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 September 2023 - 09:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

Andrewlik, on 26 September 2023 - 05:45 AM, said:

They could theoretically make them "really long reload", like 2 minute reload, rather than single shot

the cauldron wanted to do that, but there was some undisclosed technical reason they couldn't.

feeWAIVER, on 26 September 2023 - 04:52 AM, said:

That's a good question. I doubt it, because they are technically rockets, not missiles...
But it would be interesting to hear from someone who knows for sure.

mechlab seems to indicate that spread and missile crit works with the weapon. but that could just be ui fluff that isnt used ingame.

[Necroconvict]

I never run thin armor on my assaults. I did years back, but I've been taken from behind, and I didn't like it. I've recently been taken out by a damned Jav rocking several RL's. I didn't see the exact load... I was a fresh Dire.. and then I was gone. poof

[LordNothing]

you dont need a lot of armor in the back. mechdb claiming that more than 4 points of armor is too much is kind of dumb. i run 2-3 times that because i want some early warning when im being attacked from behind and have time to either get in cover or defeat whats shooting at me. also there are situations where you are in a crossfire and being able to withstand an alpha to the rear can really help a lot. people who recommend 3 points of rear armor intend to spend 99% of the game hill humping at the edge of the map. im more aggressive and will prefer to be in the thick of it where the game is most fun. standing in one spots is boring, mechs have legs.

[kalashnikity]

Currently they operate with a cylinder shaped flight path.

If you fire 6xRL20 at an Atlas in testing ground, it does 21% to 22% damage, no matter what distance you are at, and it does similar damage pattern (RNG dependent) so it doesn't matter what range you are at, it spreads the damage over an approximately equal area no matter what.

I vote for giving Rocket launchers an actual cone of fire, so if you are at 51 meters it concentrates the damage more, but at 499 meters they will have the current size spread.

I just did some testing, it looks like MRM have the same cylinder of damage as RL, at least between 51m and 490m, 11 salvos of MRM40 to kill at atlas in testing grounds.

6 salvos of MRM40 did the exact same damage and pattern as 6xRL20

If you want to make RL more useful without greatly altering their one shot nature, make them able to pinpoint one or two components on a big mech, at close range.

Edited by kalashnikity, 14 October 2023 - 10:55 AM.

[LordNothing]

i kind of like the idea of making it the missile equivalent of the lppc/snub. a 4-6 point ppfld (single rocket), maybe some splash, little or no spread (rac/hag like). in 10/15/20 shot varieties, though they all fire the same rockets and the only difference is the number of trigger pulls.

you could also do salvos of 5 in a tight formation at 3-4 damage per, for 2/3/4 trigger pulls. anything to get the damage per ton up without making the weapon an op troll device. this game offers many ways to put out 20-40 damage in a more repeatable fashion.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 October 2023 - 02:56 PM.

[Necroconvict]

I like the ideas, and the conversation so far!

[Curccu]

LordNothing, on 14 October 2023 - 09:37 AM, said:

people who recommend 3 points of rear armor intend to spend 99% of the game hill humping at the edge of the map. im more aggressive and will prefer to be in the thick of it where the game is most fun. standing in one spots is boring, mechs have legs.

Simply not true, I dislike sniping on edge of map very much and love brawling.

Needing more back armor is usually problem of bad awareness and not knowing how to not show behind to enemy.
And sure I die sometimes... 1 out of 30 or more games I would guess, but over 90% probably more like 95%+ times from frontside, so that frontloaded armor is useful pretty much each and every game not just 1 random now and then when my awareness sucks and someone gets good backshot.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 15 October 2023 - 03:56 AM, said:

Simply not true, I dislike sniping on edge of map very much and love brawling.

Needing more back armor is usually problem of bad awareness and not knowing how to not show behind to enemy.
And sure I die sometimes... 1 out of 30 or more games I would guess, but over 90% probably more like 95%+ times from frontside, so that frontloaded armor is useful pretty much each and every game not just 1 random now and then when my awareness sucks and someone gets good backshot.

ive taken out a lot of mechs that thought that 3 points was enough. its horrible advice. especially for people at lower tiers with slower reaction times. when the tables are turned id rather die to the guy in front rather than the one in back. besides when you have ping time from alaska you need a little extra reaction time.

[Grospoliner]

My thoughts on rocket launchers is that theyre not distinct enough in game play. Theyre basically single shot SRMs right now and have no advantages.

I think rocket launchers should be changed to be more like how rocket pods are in real life, i.e. you hold the trigger down and the rocket pod fires continuously. Basically rocket launchers should act like more like machine guns, but still fire projectiles. This would give rocket builds an advantage of not firing every round in the pod at once and make them distinct from MRM and SRM.

The ammo limit per pod could be retained and accuracy improved to make them a more inticing option if thier behavior was changed.

An alternative would be to add a resupply consumable that forces a power down for some length of time to restore ammunition. Im honestly surprised this isn't already in the game. Just power down the mech and have a UAV spawn in and fly over to the mech to give away its position to sharp eyed opposition.

[LordNothing]

i don't think ammo drops are gonna happen, thats new mechanics = engineering = expensive and the game is on hair thin margins. so it needs to be something the cauldron can mod in. tweaking the rockets are more likely, though the last attempt failed, i think there may still be other ways to get at the problem.

[Grospoliner]

Perhaps. I can see it would take a new function to call all of those effects over simple database entries and added mech models like the rhino. However they did create HAGs which seem a little more complex than copy and pasting a database item, as well as updated the paperdoll. So maybe its isnt too far fetched.

[LordNothing]

most of the games ive played the weapons didnt have any code, they were just database entries, with all the mechanics toggled by flags and handled internally by code. see the freespace engine which took that kind of thing to god tier status decades ago. but other games like quake used a c-like scripting language to define all the mechanics, which frankly was a good tradeoff between versatility and ease of use. cryengine i think has lua (ive written almost an entire game in lua with a few c modules to handle tight stuff and interfaces). everyone seems to be all about python now but lua is bloody fast and doesnt bloat your game as much.

the way hags were implemented looks to be 100% xml mods, just combining gauss and autocannon mechanics with a nonzero spread value. thats not going to give you an ammo crate though. some new consumables would be awesome. drones would be a uav that sweeps the map, ammo drops of course, pet npcs would be fun but there is no ai code to speak of, one use jump jets. of course they designed the skill trees around the 4 consumable types we have and you start adding others and you need to do that work all over again.

[foamyesque]

LordNothing, on 15 October 2023 - 09:50 PM, said:

ive taken out a lot of mechs that thought that 3 points was enough. its horrible advice. especially for people at lower tiers with slower reaction times. when the tables are turned id rather die to the guy in front rather than the one in back. besides when you have ping time from alaska you need a little extra reaction time.

As time's gone on I've dropped more and more back armour; I usually see where the breakpoints are for bonus front and back armour and shift things around based on that, if I'm not running bare-minimum numbers. A tiny bit of extra back armour is unlikely to save you from someone dedicated to backstabbing but it can do work in intercepting stray rounds, accidental friendly fire, or arty.

But most fire comes from the front, so that's where the vast majority of your armour ought to be too.