180 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

martian, on 05 October 2023 - 10:37 PM, said:

Repair costs would ruin some players.

Specifically the new ones. As if the game isn't already noob unfriendly.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 October 2023 - 10:46 PM.

[MechWarrior8922442]

martian, on 05 October 2023 - 10:37 PM, said:

Repair costs would ruin some players.

As it should.

The6thMessenger, on 05 October 2023 - 10:46 PM, said:

Specifically the new ones. As if the game isn't already noob unfriendly.

Simple: The lower tier mechs especially with stock loadouts have almost no repair cost or lower tier players have a discount on repairs. Everyone has to spend time as a target with bad equipment and everyone gets to be a hero for killing a well-outfitted mech with their cheap mech.

I remember when repair costs were implemented and I remember the original discussion on this forum that led to them being essentially removed and at the time I agreed with the removal. In hindsight, I was wrong: repair costs are an important tool for balance. It allows people to run extremely overpowered stuff occasionally and basic equipment always.

Edited by MechWarrior8922442, 06 October 2023 - 09:43 AM.

[Wraith 1]

Repair/rearm were absolutely not good for the game, speaking as someone who played back then and actually sorta enjoyed the mechanic.

While it did make the game feel a bit more like a mercenary unit simulator, all it really accomplished in an actual match was force worse/less experienced players into cheap builds with standard engines and tech 1 energy weapons, leaving them to get stomped even harder by the guys who had no problems running meta assaults full-time.

This sort of mechanic fits a lot better in an MMORPG style of game, but even in something like Elite: Dangerous it hardly matters past the early game and gives a big advantage to high level players. But at least you can retreat from a fight in that game—repair cost is a really out-of-place mechanic in what is effectively a pure arena FPS but with giant robots.

[MechWarrior8922442]

Wraith 1, on 06 October 2023 - 10:17 AM, said:

Repair/rearm were absolutely not good for the game, speaking as someone who played back then and actually sorta enjoyed the mechanic.

While it did make the game feel a bit more like a mercenary unit simulator, all it really accomplished in an actual match was force worse/less experienced players into cheap builds with standard engines and tech 1 energy weapons, leaving them to get stomped even harder by the guys who had no problems running meta assaults full-time.

This sort of mechanic fits a lot better in an MMORPG style of game, but even in something like Elite: Dangerous it hardly matters past the early game and gives a big advantage to high level players. But at least you can retreat from a fight in that game—repair cost is a really out-of-place mechanic in what is effectively a pure arena FPS but with giant robots.

Yep. And now the entire game's scope is hard limited to only a "pure arena FPS". At that time, players wanted their assaults for short-term satisfaction instead of having to pay their natural upkeep. Even if a wealthy player wins every time they run an Atlas, the cost of replacing 200 points of armor every game should make them unwealthy and force them into running medium mechs again. The best players will still be the best players, there will just be another factor to the mechlab: how long can I afford to buy expensive LRM missiles?

You could easily make everything mixed tech with repair costs: just make the best performing weapons expensive and the worst performing weapons extremely cheap. Suddenly everyone's builds are looking a lot more lore-like and time to kill averages go up.

Ultimately, the game should be a *little more* of a mercenary simulator, since the storyline is that we are all freeborn mercenaries selling our individual services to the highest bidder. It's why the official website is "MWOmercs.com". The commitment to quickplay (arena mode?) is what killed the other game modes. We should be getting the 32v32 massive-scale games that I paid for in the indiegogo campaign.

Edited by MechWarrior8922442, 07 October 2023 - 11:16 AM.

[C337Skymaster]

MechWarrior8922442, on 05 October 2023 - 01:03 PM, said:

Don't forget the part of the Lore where there are hundreds of planets and hundreds of thousands of mechwarriors. Every single planet and every single merc unit can refit battlemechs to serve their daily purpose. That's in the lore.

I think the biggest piece of lore we're missing from the game mechanics is repair costs. That's how you balance the big or special mechs vs the small ones.

Yes and no. There's a reason that even the giant Merc units run mostly stock builds, with just a few custom jobs for some of their leadership. Customizing a battlemech is complicated and expensive. and keeping it maintained with a non-standard configuration is also expensive, because your tech needs to be versed in the particulars of that one specific 'mech, vs just needing general knowledge of that make and model. Kinda like tuning a Corolla for street racing, vs just knowing how to take care of Toyota Corollas, in general. That street racer is gonna have a LOT of stuff different that the mechanic needs to know about to keep it running.

Take the Grey Death Legion, for example: I can't think of any customized loadouts on any of them, in any of the books I've read so far (I've only gotten as far as the independence action on Caledonia, so I don't know if they bother customizing anything else, later on).

Otherwise, we're missing several things from the core game mechanics, repair costs just being one of them. Another one is heat mechanics. All of the movement reduction during high heat, ammo explosion chances, increasing chances of shutdown, etc. We just have crit damage (which wasn't a heat mechanic), and instant shutdown if you're not already overridden. No chance to react to a shutdown, you just have to proactively override, and you move full speed no matter how hot you are.

[C337Skymaster]

As for MWO as-advertised, I thought I remembered something about units and unit coffers being intended to help supply and outfit new players, and it always seemed to me to make sense if you could play someone else's 'mech without the ability to customize it (they'd do that for you). It would make joining a unit more of a meaningful thing, and much more mercenary-like, if the wealthy players are helping to support the new players. It'd also give a better reason to own 500 'mechs as a wealthier player, if they're all getting used, vs 490 of them collecting dust while you use the other 10.

Finally, yes: repair costs require the ability to retreat, so you can save on those costs, and after hunting down the last light ECM 'mech for 10 minutes for the last 8 years, I wish there was a point and purpose to that last light 'mech retreating with battle-roms for their HQ to study, and for there to be a purpose and future benefit to bringing back intel on the battle, vs HQ losing contact with a 'mech company and never hearing from them again.

[martian]

MechWarrior8922442, on 06 October 2023 - 09:38 AM, said:

As it should.

Ruined players would not enjoy the game.

Ruined players would not enjoy using the cheapest junk 'Mechs, especially if seeing rich players running highly customized and highly effective 'Mechs.

Ruined players would soon leave the game.

MechWarrior8922442, on 07 October 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yep. And now the entire game's scope is hard limited to only a "pure arena FPS". At that time, players wanted their assaults for short-term satisfaction instead of having to pay their natural upkeep. Even if a wealthy player wins every time they run an Atlas, the cost of replacing 200 points of armor every game should make them unwealthy and force them into running medium mechs again. The best players will still be the best players, there will just be another factor to the mechlab: how long can I afford to buy expensive LRM missiles?

I do not think that forcing players into playing 'Mechs, they do not actually want to play, would be good for player's retention.

MechWarrior8922442, on 07 October 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

Ultimately, the game should be a *little more* of a mercenary simulator, since the storyline is that we are all freeborn mercenaries selling our individual services to the highest bidder.

No. PGI abandoned such storyline attempts many years ago.

And of course, Clan Invasion happened a decade ago. You have had players playing as Clanners ever since. No Clan Warrior owns his 'Mech - they are all property of his Clan.

MechWarrior8922442, on 07 October 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

It's why the official website is "MWOmercs.com".

PGI keeps this old adress because this is the easiest thing to do. The actual name of this game is MechWarrior Online Legends.

MechWarrior8922442, on 07 October 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

The commitment to quickplay (arena mode?) is what killed the other game modes.

No, the other game modes died because they were not what players wanted to play: Faction Play. Solaris 7. etc.

The Quick Play survives because it still has some players willing to play it.

MechWarrior8922442, on 07 October 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

We should be getting the 32v32 massive-scale games that I paid for in the indiegogo campaign.

I can not give you the official PGI's quote, but I am almost certain that PGI said that the game engine can only handle two teams of 12 vs. 12 players.

[Nevermore223]

I think what everyone is missing here, is that everytime something changes ingame with specs. and performance...there WILL be "changes" in the gameplay. This is where the foresight from the people who do the devlopment and upkeep come into play. Those folks have a payroll and bills to think about, as well as all the complaints, bugs and technical issuses that come with the territory.

To expect players to not take advantage of these changes would be absurd. Just because a particular fit, or style of gameplay irks some people, shoulden't give them the right to lobby the devs. to death, untill they change something that makes the gameplay soo bad, no one wants to play it any more. You've heard the saying "fix it till it's broke"...that applies here... big time...(and it has sunk more than 1 online game).

I have always thought that changing things ingame, albiet weapons or specs...should lean toward the plus side instead of the negative side. I mean, that is the way it has been since the beginning of time, concerning military weapons. Why is that so hard for some folks to grasp? The fact is, that hitting a wall with technology...will happen everywhere eventually. That should not deter folks from wanting to keep climbing the ladder. All it takes sometimes is being 1 rung above your competetor to have a seemingly unfair advantage.

In closing, kicking the checkerboard, or taking your ball and going home is'nt the answer either, if you truley enjoy the game. Being a little less selfish, and a little more creative would go a long way toward a larger community I think.

[Chaos Kita]

Grey Hook, on 03 October 2023 - 03:58 PM, said:

I'm not a pro like you but i do have a lot of seat time in Jagermechs. It's only my opinion, but I think ammo quirks for the bigger guns actually makes a huge difference- far bigger than an HSL+1.

Your curiously dogmatic definition of "BoomJager" as a JM6-A with two AC/20s maybe explains why you see Boomjagers as ineffective and the upcoming JM6-DE as lame. In my opinion- based only on my experience, YMMV- the JM6-S makes a far better BoomJager than the JM6-A, specifically because of its 200% ammo quirk.

Depending on one's tolerance for armor shaving and XL risk, one can carry 4-5 tons of ammo in a JM6 with 2 AC/20s. That gives 32-40 shells (for 640-800 potential damage) with the JM6-A, and the HSL+1 quirk increases the likelihood of firing 2 shells even when one is sufficient. The result is a mech that shares the main drawback of the King Crab KGC-000: While firing two AC/20s is fun, the weight of the ammo is a hard limit to effectiveness.

A JM6-S with the same loadout carries 64-80 shells. It can certainly alpha strike, but the heat spike means one will usually fire 1-2. This firing group arrangement also makes it a lot easier to not accidentally waste ammo shooting walls when only one cannon is clear, or putting 2 shells into a red CT that only needs one to shut it down.

I have had a lot of pretty great rounds in my dual AC/20 JM6-S, while I struggled to make the "quirked" JM6-A shine in the same role. I know other Jagermech fans who have similar stories- the HSL quirk seems to be the secret weapon, but the humble ammo quirk actually makes the bigger difference.

So, regarding the JM6-DE: I do not know how popular it will become. It is a bit of a specialist; if one doesn't love Heavy Gauss Rifles or LBX20s the mech likely does not hold any appeal. And of course the lore purists already hate it for colouring outside the lines regarding arm-mounted HGRs. But to suggest that it does not offer anything new when it is the only mech in the game that can run its loadout, and that is is not effectively quirked for its designated weapon systems because all it gets are some generic range/velocity/cooldown buffs and 2-for-1 ammo is, I think, inaccurate.

Obviously folks can run whatever jaeger as a BoomJaeger. The most optimized is the A version. There is no 200% ammo on any JM6 currently, so not sure what you are talking about here.

The DE will have a lower DPS, it will be slower, and all the quirks except ammo are better on other Jaeger variants.

[Chaos Kita]

Glad I waited for this. Wolfhound sounds cool, but the jenner and jager. . wtf? Not worth it this year. Obviously my opinion.

[Chaos Kita]

martian, on 02 October 2023 - 08:00 AM, said:

If you have any official definiton that says that BoomJager can use only a specific variant that is specially quirked for running dual AC-20s thanks the HSL quirk, post it.



I did not have to wait, since I had that guy in his BoomJager in a few games. In this particular game I just remembered that you asked the question earlier, so I took the screen capture.



Anybody can deploy in any 'Mech that he wishes, if the game client lets him. Surprisingly, some players deploy in non-optimal 'Mechs. Sometime they achieve good results in them too.



Are there many 'Mechs in MWO that can run paired LBX-20s or HGRs in arms?



Dishonest? The 'Mech comes with HGRs and it comes with the HGR ammo quirk too. Ditto for LBX-20s and specific LBX-20 ammo quirk.

How I read it, that means that it is going to be quirked for its intended weapons.

You guys really think HGR in the arms is a good thing?

Obviously PGI agreed with the critics. They already changed the quirks. Range might make the HGR build ok, the LBX build should be good now with that cool down.

MechWarrior8922442, on 06 October 2023 - 09:38 AM, said:

As it should. Simple: The lower tier mechs especially with stock loadouts have almost no repair cost or lower tier players have a discount on repairs. Everyone has to spend time as a target with bad equipment and everyone gets to be a hero for killing a well-outfitted mech with their cheap mech. I remember when repair costs were implemented and I remember the original discussion on this forum that led to them being essentially removed and at the time I agreed with the removal. In hindsight, I was wrong: repair costs are an important tool for balance. It allows people to run extremely overpowered stuff occasionally and basic equipment always.

Promoting game death spiral. A lot of players bailed over things like this in the past.

[Grey Hook]

Chaos Kita, on 08 October 2023 - 07:55 PM, said:

Obviously folks can run whatever jaeger as a BoomJaeger. The most optimized is the A version. There is no 200% ammo on any JM6 currently, so not sure what you are talking about here.

The DE will have a lower DPS, it will be slower, and all the quirks except ammo are better on other Jaeger variants.

Sorry for being unclear when I wrote about the ammo quirk percentages. When I refered to the JM6 ammo quirk as 200%, I meant 100%+100%, or essentailly 2-for-1. Install 1 ton of ammo, but get 2 tons worth of shells (or 200%). The new DE will have a 100%+200% ammo quirk- load one ton of ammo, and get an additional 2 tons worth of shells (or 300%).
Either way, I stand by my contention that the JM6-A is not "the most optimized" for running 2xAC/20 due to ammo limitations, but I understand that a lot of folks love 'em and being a fan of Jagers in general I can't fault them.

Not to be argumentative, but it is my turn to not know what you are talking about when you say that "all the quirks except ammo are better on other Jaeger variants". Assuming one runs either LBX20 or Heavy Gauss on the DE, the quirks for range (10%, 30% for HGR), cooldown (15%, 30% for LBX20) and velocity (20%) seem pretty comparable. (The "most optimized" JM6-A running 2xAC/20 gets 20% range, 20% cooldown,10% velocity).
Of course, true comparison is difficult because none of the other Jagermech variants can even carry LBX20 or Heavy Gauss. The DE certainly wouldn't be anyone's first choice for running a pair of AC/20s or UAC10s. As they say, "horses for courses".

Edited by Grey Hook, 08 October 2023 - 09:06 PM.

[KursedVixen]

Tarogato, on 28 September 2023 - 04:07 PM, said:

Then I hereby dub the Ice Ferret, "Jalapeño"

but it doesn't have flamers...

Andrewlik, on 28 September 2023 - 06:15 PM, said:

Did you just make a Red vs Blue reference?

Chupacabra...

Chaos Kita, on 08 October 2023 - 08:29 PM, said:

Promoting game death spiral. A lot of players bailed over things like this in the past.

Look at warthunder it's impossible to play higher tiers without premium time.

Edited by KursedVixen, 09 October 2023 - 09:22 AM.

[Horseman]

MechWarrior8922442, on 07 October 2023 - 11:12 AM, said:

Ultimately, the game should be a *little more* of a mercenary simulator, since the storyline is that we are all freeborn mercenaries selling our individual services to the highest bidder.

It's far too late in the game's life cycle to course correct for that.

MechWarrior8922442, on 06 October 2023 - 09:38 AM, said:

Everyone has to spend time as a target with bad equipment

Too late for that change in the game's life cycle.

Quote

I remember when repair costs were implemented and I remember the original discussion on this forum that led to them being essentially removed and at the time I agreed with the removal. In hindsight, I was wrong: repair costs are an important tool for balance. It allows people to run extremely overpowered stuff occasionally and basic equipment always.

I'll put it like this: repair costs are an inherently feelbad mechanic.
I can suggest a better implementation:

• Repair only applies to special ranked modes or events. Things like FP or Solaris.
  
• By default, repairs don't cost but take time. A few hours should be enough.
  
• You then have the option to rush the repairs for C-Bills

Being able to play Quick Play without repair costs lets you earn currency for spare mechs or repairs to play ranked modes with.
Repair times mean you will never be permanently locked out of playing but may need to wait for your favourite mechs to finish repairs.That is still feelbad to some extent, but much less punishing.
Being able to speed up the repairs with currency acts as a currency sink without locking up worse-off players in a permanent economic death spiral.

Edited by Horseman, 12 October 2023 - 04:05 AM.

[MechWarrior8922442]

Horseman, on 12 October 2023 - 04:04 AM, said:

It's far too late in the game's life cycle to course correct for that.
Too late for that change in the game's life cycle.
I'll put it like this: repair costs are an inherently feelbad mechanic.
I can suggest a better implementation:

• Repair only applies to special ranked modes or events. Things like FP or Solaris.
  
• By default, repairs don't cost but take time. A few hours should be enough.
  
• You then have the option to rush the repairs for C-Bills

Being able to play Quick Play without repair costs lets you earn currency for spare mechs or repairs to play ranked modes with.

Repair times mean you will never be permanently locked out of playing but may need to wait for your favourite mechs to finish repairs.That is still feelbad to some extent, but much less punishing.
Being able to speed up the repairs with currency acts as a currency sink without locking up worse-off players in a permanent economic death spiral.

Really reasonable comments. Including the part where it is "too late" to change course. Chaos Kita mentioned above that it would trigger a game death spiral, except that we were all joking a month ago that pgi banned both 75 and 75% of the players a month or so ago: MWO is firmly in the death spiral with all serious gamemodes gone.

Keep in mind that i mentioned some stock variants might be free, since no House or Clan would send a pilot with nothing. Players need to have a permanent avenue to make money: and that's by playing (grinding).

As with every game, though, it's important to have a risk associated. It heightens the adrenaline/endorphin response.

[Horseman]

MechWarrior8922442, on 13 October 2023 - 11:41 AM, said:

except that we were all joking a month ago that pgi banned both 75 and 75% of the players a month or so ago: MWO is firmly in the death spiral with all serious gamemodes gone.

In which case it's not lucrative enough to invest the necessary development time in the first place. Again, remember, MWO is running a heavily customized version of CryEngine that's barely maintainable.

Quote

As with every game, though, it's important to have a risk associated. It heightens the adrenaline/endorphin response.

And it's important to have a casual-friendly option because a good chunk of MWO's player base is in it for pew pew with GIANT ROBOTS and couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper bag.
Let this sink in for a moment: most of the playerbase would be driven to ragequit if your changes were implemented the way you want.

Edited by Horseman, 14 October 2023 - 10:36 AM.

[tinnman94]

could there be an announcement video for the loyalty mechs with the jenner blowing up in the background of each mech at the end of explaining them since it would be extremely funny with them just going pop and at the end when the jenners turn comes up we are just looking at it's corpse on the floor and it's quirks being explained then pan camera out to a hoard of them with all different lasers just being turned on.

[MookieDog]

Jenner A JR7-A(L)

Overview: disappointment. complete and utter disappointment. could care less if you give it 100% cooldown. Yay glad I didnt spend any where as much as I used to in past years. with rewards like this for IS, please keep them. we dont need it.

Hardpoints

Right Torso: 1 Energy


and as for the Jagermech piece of trash you guys can keep that one too. I am sure all of the fanboi's will be creaming their skirts about the wolfhound-C

[Rhaelcan]

MookieDog, on 19 October 2023 - 04:01 PM, said:

Jenner A JR7-A(L)

Overview: disappointment. complete and utter disappointment. could care less if you give it 100% cooldown. Yay glad I didnt spend any where as much as I used to in past years. with rewards like this for IS, please keep them. we dont need it.

Hardpoints

Right Torso: 1 Energy


and as for the Jagermech piece of trash you guys can keep that one too. I am sure all of the fanboi's will be creaming their skirts about the wolfhound-C

Ok bozo. Be glad we are actually getting new things to begin with,

[and zero]

martian, on 05 October 2023 - 10:37 PM, said:

Repair costs would ruin some players.

Repair??? With what’s left* after I’m done it’d be more like a resurrection.

*what’s left of me.