137 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

It is equidistant between the AC5 and AC10/UAC5, 1500/1400/1300 respectively. Provided it doesn't have velocity quirks that ruin that. Velocity quirks are one of those things that just should have never been done, similar with duration quirks, they change the nature of the weapons too much and can ruin synergies as much as they can create them.

Kinda like Cauldron should have prioritized buffing the weapon system as a whole, instead of just quirking out specialized mechs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

It could have, they would've had to boost the damage output a little bit like they did for LPPCs, I'm just not sure who the target of that would be because I don't think it would've worked for mediums very well but who knows, maybe if that stupid minimum range was gone it wouldn't be as bad.

I honestly don't see much point in the PPC minimum range to begin with. It makes sense on the TT, not as much in a real-time FPS.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

This kinda goes back to the hold bland thing, what do HMLs offer at that point. I mean I don't like what they provide currently necessarily, but what you are talking about isn't any better. What the piece to the puzzle that they fulfill on the Clan side?

High alpha short-range comes to mind, an alternative for lights if they can't spare the tons. The HSL and HML largely can't find much use right now because their range and duration is highly limiting them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

Alpha has a place in the game, but it should be higher risk than it currently is.

Like eating a massive part of your heat gauge.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

AC20s don't really have alpha or DPS at the current state, not enough to justify its tonnage. Now two of them at least provide some alpha even if they are heavy. Really this kinda goes back to one of the biggest issues in this game. Things were added without figuring out what their contribution to this game should be and ensuring that they stick with that vision (or at least the new vision makes sense). Most of the balancing in this game reeks of slapdash stuff that they threw in to appease the fanbase more than ensure its health (short term sugar rush for long term come down).

Appeal to the player-base is fine since they are the target demographic, problem is the change in management with less restraint, and promotes power-creep. Yes the Cauldron is in power-creep mode.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

That said, heat sinks are in need of a revamp

I think the simplest solution is just better -- as in just nerf the capacity and dissipation across the board.

Though if we can code, I'd make DHS have the same dissipation as SHS (still lower DHS). Like 30 base heat capacity, 1.3 heat/sec. 1.0 cap/SHS, 0.6 cap/DHS, both will have 0.13 heat/sec dissipation. As in if you got like +16 DHS, that's just a total of 3.38 dissipation. None of that 5.72 dissipation, my ******* god.

But the DHS upgrade instead would boost dissipation by 100% if the current heat is 50%+ of the heat gauge (effectively a +50% increase in dissipation). This is to ensure that the DHS is for builds that quickly heat up such as the laser-vomit or PPCs, else if something like ACs and ballistics you're essentially better off with SHS.

So if like the aforementioned laser-vomit of 2x LPL + 6x ERML at 46.8 alpha with 26 total DHS, that's 39.6 heat capacity, 3.38 base dissipation, 6.76 dissipation while at 19.8 heat. That means at the entire burn, it's only at double dissipation 57.7% of the time, so we can assume 1.43 + 3.9 diss/sec, and thus reduces 5.5965 heat during the burn, at a net of 41.2035 heat. So yeah, the full-burn alpha will certainly OH the build, as opposed of before. It will take 3.1662s for the heat to go back to below 50% threshold to negate the DHS.

With this setup, you can certainly hold back the full-burn alpha for a good 1 shot, and then sustain with just the 2x C-LPLs, so you should play it semi-risky to keep your heat-gauge above 50% in most cases to maximize the dissipation. That to me sounds a healthier non-cancerous model of alpha.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 October 2023 - 07:05 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 06:41 PM, said:

Kinda like Cauldron should have prioritized buffing the weapon system as a whole, instead of just quirking out specialized mechs.

That was the MO well before the Cauldron. I'm not saying they are that much better but PGI was worse. I also don't know how much they are able to change, I highly doubt PGI let's them just go at it.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 06:41 PM, said:

High alpha short-range comes to mind, an alternative for lights if they can't spare the tons. The HSL and HML largely can't find much use right now because their range and duration is highly limiting them.

It never really had high alpha, and even with your numbers, it is 24 vs 30, that's not really interesting especially since there is also only a 1 ton difference between the two. The things plaguing HSL and HML are numerous, it isn't just range and duration.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 06:41 PM, said:

Appeal to the player-base is fine since they are the target demographic, problem is the change in management with less restraint, and promotes power-creep. Yes the Cauldron is in power-creep mode.

It isn't if your playerbase isn't growing, which was the problem with appealing to TT players in the first place. If you want your target demographic to grow short term sugar highs like nostalgia cash grabs don't work. I've also seen less power creep with the Cauldron than when PGI was running things completely. I'm still not sure why you paint the Cauldron the way you do considering most of these problems started well before them, at this point the most you can blame them for is upholding the status quo not for starting something.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 06:41 PM, said:

I think the simplest solution is just better -- as in just nerf the capacity and dissipation across the board.

That has.....a lot of unintended consequences, including requiring a complete rebalance of heat on basically all weapons. MW4 had 30 max heat, but it also had things like heat spread to keep high heat weapons from shutting you down instantly and heat sinks did nothing to increase capacity (though some mods like NBT's HC mod increased heat capacity for STD engines and somewhat on LFEs) and they weren't bound to space to mount them (though dissipation was around 1 heat/sec or something like that).

I also don't really understand the point of +50% doubling of dissipation, seems like an unnecessary mechanic since heat is a resource, not using it is typically a waste so why the need to encourage its usage.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 06:41 PM, said:

With this setup, you can certainly hold back the full-burn alpha for a good 1 shot, and then sustain with just the 2x C-LPLs. That to me sounds a healthier non-cancerous model of alpha.

No, that's pretty cancerous, laser vomit will probably dead as a whole at that point outside maybe lights who don't have similar heat profiles. I mean you'll accomplish what you want by making brawling the default thing like it was back in closed beta, but a whole slew weapons will go unused just like closed beta. Gauss will pretty much be required for any sort of range play and things like LLs, PPCs, UACs just disappear.

Side note: General rule of thumb is that if the build can't alpha twice in a row before getting heat capped, it's probably too hot of a build. Even the old Black Knight during the BK push days could fire off 2 alphas of 3 LPL+5 ML before getting heat capped and relying solely on the LPLs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 October 2023 - 07:31 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

That was the MO well before the Cauldron. I'm not saying they are that much better but PGI was worse. I also don't know how much they are able to change, I highly doubt PGI let's them just go at it.

With this much powercreep? It's laughable that they drew the line at +Damage quirk.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

It never really had high alpha, and even with your numbers, it is 24 vs 30, that's not really interesting especially since there is also only a 1 ton difference between the two. The things plaguing HSL and HML are numerous, it isn't just range and duration.

24 vs 30 is actually a nice number.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

It isn't if your playerbase isn't growing, which was the problem with appealing to TT players in the first place. If you want your target demographic to grow short term sugar highs like nostalgia cash grabs don't work.

I kinda agree somewhat. To grow your playerbase, you need new players that aren't part of the base in the first place, the appeal just retains the current base.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

I've also seen less power creep with the Cauldron than when PGI was running things completely. I'm still not sure why you paint the Cauldron the way you do considering most of these problems started well before them, at this point the most you can blame them for is upholding the status quo not for starting something.

Ha, lol, I remember when PGI brain-dead-ly buffed the PPCs claiming that they are sniper weapons. Good times.

Though I blame the Cauldron for they have the power, they have the responsibility, and so they must have accountability.

And if you haven't noticed, they have the freedom to add new weapons as of late, hardpoint-inflated mechs as of late, almost like on a whim where they need another round of balancing because it's not really that tested. They can undo what PGI did, at least in XML, but what they are doing is simply buffing or nerfing things in a way that funnel people to specific builds that only they deem acceptable, that it is their game and not ours.

They mold the game, in only their environment -- why the alpha is universally up and there's an abundance of armor quirks, why homing weapons are ****** in QP, but "balanced in comp". Wow the comp guys balanced the weapons on comp environment that ignored how the rest of the game plays because they don't care, no ****?

So yeah, I blame them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

That has.....a lot of unintended consequences, including requiring a complete rebalance of heat on basically all weapons.

Sure. But hey, that is how rework works amirite?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

MW4 had 30 max heat, but it also had things like heat spread to keep high heat weapons from shutting you down instantly and heat sinks did nothing to increase capacity (though some mods like NBT's HC mod increased heat capacity for STD engines and somewhat on LFEs) and they weren't bound to space to mount them (though dissipation was around 1 heat/sec or something like that).

Yeah, MW4 did a lot of things right.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

I also don't really understand the point of +50% doubling of dissipation, seems like an unnecessary mechanic since heat is a resource, not using it is typically a waste so why the need to encourage its usage.

This is to make DHS only usable at heavy usage of the heat resource, and the most straight-forward indicator of that is the heat-gauge being used at all. So when you're at 50%+ at extended periods of time, it's much likely that you are using hot weapons, and thus you'd be taking advantage of the double-dissipation more by maintaining a +50% heat gauge. The cold ones will only skirt the upper half of the heat capacity, but barely pushes it so it'll be just a waste.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

No, that's pretty cancerous, laser vomit will probably dead as a whole at that point outside maybe lights who don't have similar heat profiles. I mean you'll accomplish what you want by making brawling the default thing like it was back in closed beta, but a whole slew weapons will go unused just like closed beta. Gauss will pretty much be required for any sort of range play and things like LLs, PPCs, UACs just disappear.

It could ease up on the heat cap and dissipation to allow a bit more leeway, but the 50%+ model for SHS vs DHS seems solid to me, and the heat-capping of alpha seems legit.

Gauss was always a staple of long-range use, and gauss-vomit because of low heat, and so I think it's a separate issue because it persists regardless and should be fixed as an independent weapon in the first place. Like maybe have GRs at only 1 HSL limit, so there's more heat accrued at firing 2. That way, you can keep the single GH heat neutral, but 2x GR or HGR will have high heat.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

Side note: General rule of thumb is that if the build can't alpha twice in a row before getting heat capped, it's probably too hot of a build. Even the old Black Knight during the BK push days could fire off 2 alphas of 3 LPL+5 ML before getting heat capped and relying solely on the LPLs.

The Clan vomit of 6x ERML + 2x LPL on a Marauder IIC, doing 3 to 4 is probably too good if that's the case.

But for the Black Knight, you mean a 58 alpha twice, and reduced to 33 damage afterwards? Seems to me that it's still too cold.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alright, so here's the real question, what is an acceptable alpha at mid range and/or long range for you? And how frequent of damage should DPS builds offer in comparison?

[Widowmaker1981]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

No, that's pretty cancerous, laser vomit will probably dead as a whole at that point outside maybe lights who don't have similar heat profiles. I mean you'll accomplish what you want by making brawling the default thing like it was back in closed beta, but a whole slew weapons will go unused just like closed beta. Gauss will pretty much be required for any sort of range play and things like LLs, PPCs, UACs just disappear.

If thats really the aim here, im not sure what to say. if balance is altered such that in your face SRM brawling becomes the default option for 12 v 12 pug games, thats me out. I dont enjoy that type of gameplay at all, and i never will.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 01:00 AM, said:

Alright, so here's the real question, what is an acceptable alpha at mid range and/or long range for you? And how frequent of damage should DPS builds offer in comparison?

2x PPC at 20 every 4 seconds was golden before, that's the PPFLD. 30 damage for lasers.

Gauss should have been 15, but a charitable but heavy heat for 30.

Further is just guess work:

AC20 every 4s, 2x AC10 every 2.5s, 3x AC5 every 1.6s, 5x AC2 every 0.8s.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 October 2023 - 02:07 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 10 October 2023 - 02:07 AM, said:

2x PPC at 20 every 4 seconds was golden before, that's the PPFLD. 30 damage for lasers.

Gauss should have been 15, but a charitable but heavy heat for 30.

Further is just guess work:

AC20 every 4s, 2x AC10 every 2.5s, 3x AC5 every 1.6s, 5x AC2 every 0.8s.

Then you might as well ask for energy draw back from the old PTS and remove PPCs from the game. Point blank, that is dumb. It might have been fine back during the Highlander/Victor poptart days but things are not the same as back then.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 October 2023 - 07:34 AM.

[Curccu]

You two have done some 4 pages worth of off-topic chatter...

[pbiggz]

Im not up to date with this thread but would ramping damage not address some of the issues with the xpulse?

If you use it as an alpha/snap fire weapon like standard pulse lasers it will always perform worse, but if you manage to get time on target the damage quickly ramps to *much higher*, rewarding you for risking face time without making standard pulse lasers obsolete.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 10 October 2023 - 09:13 AM, said:

You two have done some 4 pages worth of off-topic chatter...

That should tell you how uninteresting the proposal was. Also OP is acting a total petulant diva, that was just not pleasant to deal with. Dude literally harrased me on another unrelated thread. Ironic to talk down to me as if a kid, yet dude himself acts immature.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 05:22 AM, said:

Then you might as well ask for energy draw back from the old PTS and remove PPCs from the game. Point blank, that is dumb. It might have been fine back during the Highlander/Victor poptart days but things are not the same as back then.

That is such the case because of the rampant power-creep, the new weapons, the armor quirk, and it wasn't handled very well. So yeah, "it's not the same", in such obvious aspect. And one I was trying to reign in.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 October 2023 - 04:14 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 10 October 2023 - 01:26 PM, said:

That is such the case because of the rampant power-creep, the new weapons, the armor quirk, and it wasn't handled very well. So yeah, "it's not the same", in such obvious aspect. And one I was trying to reign in.

Reign in and overcompensate for are two different things. What you recommend is basically going back to closed beta back before DHS were even in the game. Where Gauss was the only ranged weapon worth taking because all the rest were just too hot to bother with and dakka was too hot to stop brawls.

[MechMaster059]

Curccu, on 10 October 2023 - 09:13 AM, said:

You two have done some 4 pages worth of off-topic chatter...

Indeed.

Hopefully they've exhausted themselves by now and are done wasting everyone's time with their awful, game-ruining proposals.

The6thMessenger:
- Kid makes a thread about reworking heat sinks and doesn't even know how a SHS works. Wants DHS and SHS to have the same dissipation rate which is totally counter-intuitive.

Quicksilver Kalasa:
- Let's make standard lasers continuous fire on/off weapons which would totally nuke light mechs and make them obsolete. (If lasers were continuous fire it would trivialize legging light mechs)

pbiggz, on 10 October 2023 - 12:03 PM, said:

Im not up to date with this thread but would ramping damage not address some of the issues with the xpulse?

...

This is an interesting idea but wouldn't fix XPLs. The problem with XPLs is that their current alpha is so bad that it's holding the weapon back. This proposal gives them better alpha for a very short burst (2 sec or less) than the current implementation even with a nerf to sustained DPS. Players don't realize how strong the DPS is on current XPLs because their heat profiles are also ruining the weapons and holding them back.

I've had more time to think about this and it occurred to me that a weapon that deals damage twice as fast for the same damage / heat as another weapon is indeed at a severe heat disadvantage because dealing damage so quickly means heat sinks have that much less time to dissipate heat. This means a MPL currently has 70% more time to dissipate heat than an MXPL for the same damage dealt which is why you rarely see players using MXPLs, they redline a players heat bar too quickly for heat sinks to manage their heat effectively.

Your idea might be cool for a short-range continuous fire laser that quickly ramps up in both damage dealt and heat generated. (Similar in heat generated to a flamer after it's gone past the yellow bar into the red)

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 01:44 PM, said:

Reign in and overcompensate for are two different things. What you recommend is basically going back to closed beta back before DHS were even in the game. Where Gauss was the only ranged weapon worth taking because all the rest were just too hot to bother with and dakka was too hot to stop brawls.

Notice how I haven't specified the heat of the weapons yet? I wasn't actually here for the closed beta, but I was here when AC2 was too hot for it's own good, got a decimal down.

What I am specifying is just the model of outgoing damage, not precisely the heat model. ACs and brawl weapons could be colder, or the heat system might be more lenient than just 30 capacity and 1.6 h/s, and then double dissipation when above 50% heat.

And guess what, in your scenario that was before there was DHS. Pre or post proposed rework of mine, and current heat values, the ACs and SRM brawls should be able to maintain use.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 October 2023 - 04:18 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 10 October 2023 - 02:27 PM, said:

Quicksilver Kalasa:
- Let's make standard lasers continuous fire on/off weapons which would totally nuke light mechs and make them obsolete. (If lasers were continuous fire it would trivialize legging light mechs)

Not sure what you are on about with legging light mechs. PPFLD is better against fast targets unless you are catching a light flat-footed (and even then burst damage is still superior compared to sustained DPS).

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 04:33 PM, said:

Not sure what you are on about with legging light mechs. PPFLD is better against fast targets unless you are catching a light flat-footed (and even then burst damage is still superior compared to sustained DPS).

Because PPFLD can miss. It's difficult to hit the legs of a light mech zipping around. If lasers were continuous fire, a laser vomit mech could just paint with horizontal brush strokes and guarantee hits on the legs. It would be suicidal for a light mech to engage a laser vomit mech below 100m.

Horrible idea.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 10 October 2023 - 04:38 PM, said:

Because PPFLD can miss. It's difficult to hit the legs of a light mech zipping around. If lasers were continuous fire, a laser vomit mech could just paint with horizontal brush strokes and guarantee hits on the legs

Yes, but it is doing less damage per tick than it does now, and you act like lights constantly expose themselves such that they afford you those shots. In other words, no more suicidal than it currently is.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 October 2023 - 04:47 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 04:33 PM, said:

Not sure what you are on about with legging light mechs. PPFLD is better against fast targets unless you are catching a light flat-footed (and even then burst damage is still superior compared to sustained DPS).

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

Yes, but it is doing less damage per tick than it does now, and you act like lights constantly expose themselves such that they afford you those shots. In other words, no more suicidal than it currently is.

Lasers require constant track, continous lasers more so. The other guy is sure confident with his aim to think of lasers that way.

I honestly would prefer PPFLD on a light too. PPFLD can miss -- but you can predict movement and simply shoot at the proper moment.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nine-Ball, on 10 October 2023 - 06:40 PM, said:

They require more skill to utilize than PPFLD, yes. Lower floor, higher ceiling in terms of guaranteed damage vs damage potential.

Yeah, IDK about that, if that were true more people would bother with it like they do in other shooters. Pretty sure the damage potential isn't there yet.

Nine-Ball, on 10 October 2023 - 06:40 PM, said:

It is a rather anti-meta weapon since the most effective way of dealing with poptarts is to get them in prolonged engagements

Not sure about that one, most of the meta poptarts are only 2 ERPPCs and a slew of small/micro lasers (pulse or otherwise). They are pretty heat efficient for being energy boats.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 October 2023 - 07:16 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Nine-Ball, on 10 October 2023 - 06:40 PM, said:

They require more skill to utilize than PPFLD, yes. Lower floor, higher ceiling in terms of guaranteed damage vs damage potential.

The 1/3rd Tier-3 over there, seems too confident tho. Can't say if it's just the DK effect coming from someone who has yet to play in a harder environment.

Nine-Ball, on 10 October 2023 - 06:40 PM, said:

They honestly just need more playtime and proper usage in builds that are not slow boats nor small enough mechs that can't handle the heat buildup effectively.

Lack of heat is nice, but DPS is first and foremost the priority. It's a laser weapon, it should be eating up the heat-gauge, but insane DPS is what it should have to compensate with the face-time. Even RACs have insanely high DPS, yet those feel horrible to use. Unfortunately however, the OP's proposal of low and reduced DPS, for the sake of consistency, is a fantasy.

It's funny that the dude decries the heat buildup that's holding the XPLs back, while claiming DPS is OP. Wouldn't that make it balanced then?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 October 2023 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yeah, IDK about that, if that were true more people would bother with it like they do in other shooters. Pretty sure the damage potential isn't there yet.

Damage is high cumulatively, why specifically it's the vomits are the threat, and not the sensible 2 to 3 backups on a ballistic or missile build.

You just can't have high damage on weapons that are light and easy to put on builds.

[The6thMessenger]

Nine-Ball, on 10 October 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

A hard environment is relative to your tier I guess. That being said, facing stiffer competition cuts both ways. Facing tough competition might limit you in certain ways but having just as tough teammates means your able to use them in other ways more fitting for their overall role. Its not always a stomp.

Well, OP insists is that somehow a continuous laser would make it easier to nullify a light. I just highly doubt the dude is contending with good light pilots to be able to say that with confidence. I guess, it's the same reason why the dude thinks that extending the face-time of XPLs is a good thing.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 October 2023 - 09:26 PM.