137 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 07:40 AM, said:

It doesn't close any gap when two LLs are actually better. At that point its only point is for hardpoint starved mechs or for like 1 of 3 mechs that can abuse the +1 laser HSL quirk. It opens up lasers + gauss for like 2 mechs, not exactly that helpful compared to buffing iLL

It's also the tonnage-wise most efficient choice to maximize alpha. The firepower of 4 large lasers, under 18 tons.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 07:40 AM, said:

What if there was a LPL that was 9 tons and was equivalent to mounting 1.5 of the normal cLPL. Then who would care about the 2 cERLL Cheetah when you can just mount the 9 ton laser that has equivalent performance? No one which is what my point was.

And this is relevant to the vs lasers discussion because?

Sure I can give you the breakaway point. But you're not making that case by making XPulses basically ER lasers.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:11 AM, said:

I do find it ironic that here I am trying to "break" the "peekaboo" meta that so many of you complain about and suddenly you dislike the idea of changing the status quo, like what? Keeping in mind I'm also trying to make the burst DPS weapons actually competitive and not just end up be a nerf but that's regardless.

Because you're not doing it properly. I want to break the peekaboo meta, but I want to make dps weapons more prominent. Not ruin what we currently have.

Stop going to personal attacks. My god.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 October 2023 - 02:25 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

It's also the tonnage-wise most efficient choice to maximize alpha. The firepower of 4 large lasers, under 18 tons.

Yeah, at the expense of 25% duration, which isn't small. Just look at heavy lasers how much that extra duration can hurt.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

And this is relevant to the vs lasers discussion because?
Sure I can give you the breakaway point. But you're not making that case by making XPulses basically ER lasers.

The point is that you didn't like the change because it ruined builds by increasing the tonnage tax. All I'm saying is that wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were better options. The reason I keep bringing up LPPCs/PPCs/HPPCs is because they are a good model for what should happen for MORE weapons to help combat that issue because as I keep mentioning, that is a separate issue. If standard lasers are now the burst or DPS oriented weapons then it makes sense to have x-pulse just be the ER versions of standard pulse.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

Because you're not doing it properly. I want to break the peekaboo meta, but I want to make dps weapons more prominent. Not ruin what we currently have.

And I want to stop the power creep so we stop steadily having to increase durability quirks to keep up with the power creep. But the direction honestly doesn't matter really, we could easily just boost the damage per heat of everything and achieve similar results. Different levers for different things. The ultimate question is about the pace of the game, and at this point the durability quirks have IMO become non-sensical and moved way past what they are intended to do. Either way, not really pertinent to the discussion about weapon identity and how to make a burst DPS weapon good.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2023 - 06:06 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

Yeah, at the expense of 25% duration, which isn't small. Just look at heavy lasers how much that extra duration can hurt.

Give and take. I think you're comparing it to 4x LL vs 2x Blazer, because essentially that is what the Blazer is. But it's really more like it's 3x LL vs 2x Blazer.

Though personally, I think Blazers should do 20 damage.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

The point is that you didn't like the change because it ruined builds by increasing the tonnage tax. All I'm saying is that wouldn't be as much of a problem if there were better options.

And all I am saying is that, you aren't making better options. You are making bad options, and worse options.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

The reason I keep bringing up LPPCs/PPCs/HPPCs is because they are a good model for what should happen for MORE weapons to help combat that issue because as I keep mentioning, that is a separate issue.

And quite frankly, they aren't. The LPPCs, PPCs, and HPPCs are, if anything, too close to each other, than the lasers are to each other.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

If standard lasers are now the burst or DPS oriented weapons then it makes sense to have x-pulse just be the ER versions of standard pulse.

Yes. If you made them ER versions of standard pulse, but that is again when we do such thing. The problem is that, we shouldn't. By reason that it will end up just reducing playstyle and build variety.

And no, the continuous STD isn't gonna supplant the XPulses, it'll just make everything else bad, as you can put less lasers than the STDs allow.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

And I want to stop the power creep so we stop steadily having to increase durability quirks to keep up with the power creep. But the direction honestly doesn't matter really, we could easily just boost the damage per heat of everything and achieve similar results.

Power-Creep is a philosophy problem. Direction, sure, but it's more like the issue of the balance overlord thinking of supplanting every overperforming entity, than just reigning them in. Of the balance-overlords thinking in a monolith, in an echo-chamber.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

Different levers for different things. The ultimate question is about the pace of the game, and at this point the durability quirks have IMO become non-sensical and moved way past what they are intended to do. Either way, not really pertinent to the discussion about weapon identity and how to make a burst DPS weapon good.

It's the matter of pinpoint front-loaded damage, and the builds that exacerbate it. The Cauldron often argue that Alpha weapons have low DPS, that high-dps builds can just reign them in by being aggressive. But the game doesn't let you be aggressive with all the alphas around, the laser-voms let you burst twice or thrice, with coolshot even.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 October 2023 - 07:35 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

Give and take. I think you're comparing it to 4x LL vs 2x Blazer, because essentially that is what the Blazer is. But it's really more like it's 3x LL vs 2x Blazer.

I'm comparing a single BLazer to 2 LL. Blazers only offer 1 ton extra per in exchange for a 25% duration negative quirk effectively.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

And quite frankly, they aren't. The LPPCs, PPCs, and HPPCs are, if anything, too close to each other, than the lasers are to each other.

There's some definite tweaks that could be done to the PPCs/HPPCs to give one more reason to mount one over the other (current issue is PPCs offer the equivalent alpha as HPPCs) but for the most part that is really what you end up wanting. LPPCs are more efficient for the tonnage but have a more limited alpha making them super effective on lights. HPPCs really should be the better option on the heavy end of the spectrum offering the best alpha without ghost heat but near equivalent of DPS as LPPCs (so you are effectively paying tonnage for an increase to alpha damage rather than DPS or heat efficiency).

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

And all I am saying is that, you aren't making better options. You are making bad options, and worse options.

Yes. If you made them ER versions of standard pulse, but that is again when we do such thing. The problem is that, we shouldn't. By reason that it will end up just reducing playstyle and build variety.

And no, the continuous STD isn't gonna supplant the XPulses, it'll just make everything else bad, as you can put less lasers than the STDs allow.

FFS. What I'm saying is a few things:

• Give standard lasers and pulse lasers more distinct roles so they can be excellent at their respective roles rather than currently where they are trying to be just different enough so that it seems like there are trade-offs when there really isn't.
  
• Offer Clans a option similar to what X-Pulse offer the IS, because well locking off playstyles seems silly at this point, there really isn't a distinct playstyle for either tech base and never will be. You know, increase build diversity (particularly on the higher end of the weight classes).
  
• I'm not suggesting a nerf, TBH I was just running of your crying that this "kills" builds. Which again, any balance change can do REGARDLESS of this change. Welcome to any game where changes can happen. The question is what impact this has on the meta. I honestly don't know at this point because no one has boosted burst DPS enough for lasers to even have a good guesstimate of what it would take to make them competitive in that arena. Regardless if I can't make a good guesstimate, I strongly doubt you would either.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

Power-Creep is a philosophy problem. Direction, sure, but it's more like the issue of the balance overlord thinking of supplanting every overperforming entity, than just reigning them in. Of the balance-overlords thinking in a monolith, in an echo-chamber.

What? Power creep is a pacing problem (subjective yes but something you can actually get numbers on), the problem with this game has been a constant push to bigger and bigger damage volume and using other things like quirks and the skill tree to try and help compensate for the ever increasing damage volume. With the biggest power creeps being the dropping of Clans, second with the skill tree (it gave and took away), and then the third being the dissipation increase that happened a few years ago that effectively boosted the DPS of practically every build. I would say heavy lasers didn't help, but I don't feel like the civil war drops moved the needle once heavy gauss got nerfed and heavy gauss still seems like it should pale in comparison to the Quad UAC10 Kodiak that reigned for a while.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

It's the matter of pinpoint front-loaded damage, and the builds that exacerbate it. The Cauldron often argue that Alpha weapons have low DPS, that high-dps builds can just reign them in by being aggressive. But the game doesn't let you be aggressive with all the alphas around, the laser-voms let you burst twice or thrice, with coolshot even.

Huh? What PPFLD builds are running rampant? AFAIK gauss vomit is still king and that is a mix of PPFLD and burst damage. I mean I guess you could argue that lasers are front loaded, but typically when people talk about PPFLD they specifically refer to Gauss and PPCs which are distinct from lasers/dakka/HAGs due to their duration.

Part of the problem is also both map design and number of players on the field. More players = more angles that are adequately covered and poor map design can decrease the number of suitable approaches. Before the recent developer, a lot of the map redesigns suffered from awful map design due to cover and approaches being far and few between. I mean hellebore is an rough map because of how few parts of the map are reasonable to even go (south side of the map is no man's land)

Nine-Ball, on 06 October 2023 - 08:06 PM, said:

So in short:

-Increase LXPL from 2.2 to 2.5 damage

-Decrease cooldown/burn from 0.25 to 0.225

You would want to potentially increase the heat as well to something like 1.59 so that DPH of it stays in place as well, to help quell fears it would be OP, but I think it would be a better start.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2023 - 09:40 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

I'm comparing a single BLazer to 2 LL. Blazers only offer 1 ton extra per in exchange for a 25% duration negative quirk effectively.

Yeah, and I am comparing 2 Blazers to 3 LL, since both are the maximum GH.

I don't think it's worth comparing Blazers on their own, as opposed of part of an ensemble, because it's not like it's just used on it's own.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

There's some definite tweaks that could be done to the PPCs/HPPCs to give one more reason to mount one over the other (current issue is PPCs offer the equivalent alpha as HPPCs) but for the most part that is really what you end up wanting.

But they are still PPFLD peekaboo-based and people will still gravitate as such -- maximizing alpha.

You know, it reminds me of the LPPC having 3 GH. They could have balanced LPPC around 3 of it, limited at say 15 damage and buffed it from there. Low-Heat, faster fire-rate.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

Regardless if I can't make a good guesstimate, I strongly doubt you would either.

Agree to disagree.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

Give standard lasers and pulse lasers more distinct roles so they can be excellent at their respective roles rather than currently where they are trying to be just different enough so that it seems like there are trade-offs when there really isn't. Offer Clans a option similar to what X-Pulse offer the IS, because well locking off playstyles seems silly at this point, there really isn't a distinct playstyle for either tech base and never will be. You know, increase build diversity (particularly on the higher end of the weight classes).

I agree. You don't ruin STD tho. You want continuous laser, maybe Chainfire?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

What? Power creep is a pacing problem (subjective yes but something you can actually get numbers on), the problem with this game has been a constant push to bigger and bigger damage volume and using other things like quirks and the skill tree to try and help compensate for the ever increasing damage volume.

Which is exactly the same thing said, only worded differently, with a different and more specific frame.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

Huh? What PPFLD builds are running rampant? AFAIK gauss vomit is still king and that is a mix of PPFLD and burst damage. I mean I guess you could argue that lasers are front loaded, but typically when people talk about PPFLD they specifically refer to Gauss and PPCs which are distinct from lasers/dakka/HAGs due to their duration.

No, not PPFLD weapons specifically, but it does reward the meta of maximizing outgoing damage, and minimizing incoming damage. PPFLD is the ultimate user of that philosophy, but the vomit builds are the closest and as pinpoint as can be and often the most effective because of the immense damage.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

Part of the problem is also both map design and number of players on the field. More players = more angles that are adequately covered and poor map design can decrease the number of suitable approaches. Before the recent developer, a lot of the map redesigns suffered from awful map design due to cover and approaches being far and few between. I mean hellebore is an rough map because of how few parts of the map are reasonable to even go (south side of the map is no man's land)

The new maps aren't fun either, they end up too cluttered with a lot of BS in it.

[Richard Hazen]

I can't decide whats worse, being so open you can get shot from every direction including from above, or being so cluttered and having choke points everything is just poking and there's tons of nascaring.

[The6thMessenger]

Will Hawker, on 07 October 2023 - 12:03 AM, said:

I can't decide whats worse, being so open you can get shot from every direction including from above, or being so cluttered and having choke points everything is just poking and there's tons of nascaring.

That is the general map redesign because of the current game-balance that makes being out in the open too punishing because of the balance around high-alpha builds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 11:10 PM, said:

Yeah, and I am comparing 2 Blazers to 3 LL, since both are the maximum GH.

I don't think it's worth comparing Blazers on their own, as opposed of part of an ensemble, because it's not like it's just used on it's own.

You can fire 4 LL without ghost heat, 3 LPLs, or 2 Blazers. Those have been the limits for a while so not sure why you think 3 LL is the limit.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 11:10 PM, said:

You know, it reminds me of the LPPC having 3 GH. They could have balanced LPPC around 3 of it, limited at say 15 damage and buffed it from there. Low-Heat, faster fire-rate.

I mean it does have faster firing, 3 LPPCs (9 tons) are 5.5 DPS while 2 HPPCs (20 tons) are 6.0 DPS. It just isn't low heat but no one really cares because lights use them and they typically have some heat efficiency to spare.

The6thMessenger, on 06 October 2023 - 11:10 PM, said:

But they are still PPFLD peekaboo-based and people will still gravitate as such -- maximizing alpha.

No, not PPFLD weapons specifically, but it does reward the meta of maximizing outgoing damage, and minimizing incoming damage.

Maximizing outgoing damage and minimizing the incoming damage is literally the name of the game for everything. It doesn't matter if it is DPS or what. Any combat game is a numbers game (focus fire, concave firing lines, coming ahead in trades).

The two problems that I see with the current game is that there aren't very many actually DPS oriented weapons (x-pulse is the only energy weapon oriented to that, ballistics have several though) and that certain alpha oriented weapons offer too much DPS for too little in return (*cough* Gauss *cough*, especially Clans). Well that and the game modes still aren't the best at promoting engagements. Domination is probably the best at it but it is pretty rough on some of the maps.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 07 October 2023 - 02:48 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

You can fire 4 LL without ghost heat, 3 LPLs, or 2 Blazers. Those have been the limits for a while so not sure why you think 3 LL is the limit.

Oh, sorry, didn't know they did that. But that's honestly pretty bad idea, that the Blazer is closer in concept.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

I mean it does have faster firing, 3 LPPCs (9 tons) are 5.5 DPS while 2 HPPCs (20 tons) are 6.0 DPS. It just isn't low heat but no one really cares because lights use them and they typically have some heat efficiency to spare.

Sure. But I don't see that as good, that it's entire use is just lights. It should have been low heat.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

Maximizing outgoing damage and minimizing the incoming damage is literally the name of the game for everything. It doesn't matter if it is DPS or what. Any combat game is a numbers game (focus fire, concave firing lines, coming ahead in trades).

And what is peekaboo but that distilled in it's ultimate form in playstyle?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 07:10 AM, said:

The two problems that I see with the current game is that there aren't very many actually DPS oriented weapons (x-pulse is the only energy weapon oriented to that, ballistics have several though) and that certain alpha oriented weapons offer too much DPS for too little in return (*cough* Gauss *cough*, especially Clans).

And the ones are pretty bad and aren't that powerful for their facetime. Namely RACs and XPulses.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 October 2023 - 02:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2023 - 02:48 PM, said:

Oh, sorry, didn't know they did that. But that's honestly pretty bad idea, that the Blazer is closer in concept.

I mean 4 LL has been the number since the days of the WVR-6K's dominance in the medium class so going back on that would make the Blazer just feel more hamfisted.

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2023 - 02:48 PM, said:

Sure. But I don't see that as good, that it's entire use is just lights. It should have been low heat.

I'd argue it was more useful as an option for light mechs than it was as a "low heat" rapid fire PPC since it gave them a solid PPFLD option that they could leverage. Especially given it was 3 tons which seems like an awful low tonnage to make it low heat and spammable. I'm not against a burst-y PPC, I just think the LPPC was a perfect candidate for what it is, and honestly I wish more weapons followed this pattern.

Honestly it makes me wonder if each weight class had their own pool of weapons what that would look like. It might allow the lights to have much more effective weapons without the need for ghost heat to limit their effectiveness on bigger mechs.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 04:56 PM, said:

I mean 4 LL has been the number since the days of the WVR-6K's dominance in the medium class so going back on that would make the Blazer just feel more hamfisted.

Considering what we currently have, yes. Problem is that, what we currently have -- the high-alpha-centrism -- shouldn't have been the case. But comps gonna comp.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 04:56 PM, said:

I'd argue it was more useful as an option for light mechs than it was as a "low heat" rapid fire PPC since it gave them a solid PPFLD option that they could leverage. Especially given it was 3 tons which seems like an awful low tonnage to make it low heat and spammable.

Yeah, sure, being a PPFLD option. But you can do that by having it at 3/4 GH limit at least right? And balance from there.

But the LPPCs right now, if you're any heavier, is expected to just boat them, leading to needing high heat to be reigned in. As a result, it's basically just the basic PPC play.

Point is, you can have both PPFLD option for light but also a low-heat rapid-fire PPC, but the adherence to needing high alpha made the balance-overlords tunnel-visioned on this one.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 04:56 PM, said:

I'm not against a burst-y PPC, I just think the LPPC was a perfect candidate for what it is, and honestly I wish more weapons followed this pattern.

You mean a light-centric weapon, that makes it compete as if it's one of the heavy selection but weaker? Why couldn't they just make the heavier option more useful instead, and have the LPPC it's own niche? Seems redundant.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 October 2023 - 04:56 PM, said:

Honestly it makes me wonder if each weight class had their own pool of weapons what that would look like. It might allow the lights to have much more effective weapons without the need for ghost heat to limit their effectiveness on bigger mechs.

I think the GH is exactly what is making this phenomenon, at least it could and should. Again, imagine if the LPPC is only ever restricted to fire 3 at a time, then the cauldron has to balance it in a way that the 3 LPPC would be as competent but different to 2x PPC or 2x HPPC. Likewise, if the HPPC has 1 GH limt, as in you can only fire 1 before GH.

But no, again, high-alpha all the way down. Come to think of it, the heat efficiency is what allow high-alpha like vomits to be ever so punishing and a threat. They could just reduce the GH limit further to reign in alpha and encourage shot partitioning and chainfiring, but also make GH a bit more permissive that high alpha is possible.

And no, I don't think the Cauldron achieved that.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 October 2023 - 11:50 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2023 - 11:48 PM, said:

Considering what we currently have, yes. Problem is that, what we currently have -- the high-alpha-centrism -- shouldn't have been the case. But comps gonna comp.

That limit has been that way since way before the Cauldron even existed and partially because iLL vs iERMLs has always made iLLs look awful.

Edit: Part of me wonders if they made the BLazer 15 damage for 10 heat and raised the ghost heat limit; how would that play out for energy assaults. It's less efficient than LLs for the tonnage, but allows larger mechs to reach a higher alpha (albeit with a slower cooldown and similar duration).

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2023 - 11:48 PM, said:

Yeah, sure, being a PPFLD option. But you can do that by having it at 3/4 GH limit at least right? And balance from there.

But the LPPCs right now, if you're any heavier, is expected to just boat them, leading to needing high heat to be reigned in. As a result, it's basically just the basic PPC play.

Point is, you can have both PPFLD option for light but also a low-heat rapid-fire PPC, but the adherence to needing high alpha made the balance-overlords tunnel-visioned on this one.

I mean if you are heavier, unless you have HSL bonuses you aren't bothering with LPPCs because the ghost heat limit is 3 (though quite a few mediums have the ability to fire four without ghost heat), but I think regardless, yeah the expectation is you boat them regardless of how they were designed. It's a 3 ton weapon, you aren't doing much else with it.

Given how lacking the weapon options are for lights due to limited tonnage and many weapons (particularly ballistics) having high tonnage taxes it gave them a decent and much needed option. Clan lights are definitely jealous of the LPPC.

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2023 - 11:48 PM, said:

You mean a light-centric weapon, that makes it compete as if it's one of the heavy selection but weaker? Why couldn't they just make the heavier option more useful instead, and have the LPPC it's own niche? Seems redundant.

It's like the heavy selection but stronger...at least in the DPS. Again 3 LPPCs (which is the limit) is near equivalent in DPS as 2 HPPCs (which is also the limit). So the difference between the two is alpha (16.5 vs 30) but also tonnage (9 tons vs 20 tons). On paper LPPCs are waaaaay more efficient than HPPCs but ghost heat keeps them from really being used on heavier mechs. That is the niche, and it helps IS lights threaten at mid range in a way they were never able to compared to Clan lights.

The6thMessenger, on 07 October 2023 - 11:48 PM, said:

I think the GH is exactly what is making this phenomenon, at least it could and should. Again, imagine if the LPPC is only ever restricted to fire 3 at a time, then the cauldron has to balance it in a way that the 3 LPPC would be as competent but different to 2x PPC or 2x HPPC. Likewise, if the HPPC has 1 GH limt, as in you can only fire 1 before GH.

But no, again, high-alpha all the way down. Come to think of it, the heat efficiency is what allow high-alpha like vomits to be ever so punishing and a threat. They could just reduce the GH limit further to reign in alpha and encourage shot partitioning and chainfiring, but also make GH a bit more permissive that high alpha is possible.

And no, I don't think the Cauldron achieved that.

Also, no one would use HPPCs if the limit was one. I mean I guess they might if the damage was bumped to 20, but what are you going to combine it with at that point. I guess you could make it the light weapon but the tonnage requirement is pretty high for a weapon meant for lights.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 October 2023 - 08:17 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

That limit has been that way since way before the Cauldron even existed and partially because iLL vs iERMLs has always made iLLs look awful.

I honestly remember 3x LL was the GH limit. But I guess I did took a hiatus. Apparently they brought back the LPPC to 3 limit, and the SNPPC to 2.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

Part of me wonders if they made the BLazer 15 damage for 10 heat and raised the ghost heat limit; how would that play out for energy assaults. It's less efficient than LLs for the tonnage, but allows larger mechs to reach a higher alpha (albeit with a slower cooldown and similar duration).

I think efficiency at LL was the point, at least on the mech construction aspect. It could be done, but you are shafting lighter mechs for it. Sure, higher alpha, but I think the game needs less alpha at this point.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

I mean if you are heavier, unless you have HSL bonuses you aren't bothering with LPPCs because the ghost heat limit is 3 (though quite a few mediums have the ability to fire four without ghost heat), but I think regardless, yeah the expectation is you boat them regardless of how they were designed. It's a 3 ton weapon, you aren't doing much else with it.

It would be an interesting dynamic as a mix with standard or ultra ac10s/ac5s, if it had the heat for it, but it doesn't.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

Given how lacking the weapon options are for lights due to limited tonnage and many weapons (particularly ballistics) having high tonnage taxes it gave them a decent and much needed option. Clan lights are definitely jealous of the LPPC.

CERPPC is 6 tons with 15 damage, on top of clan space magick. I have to say no on that one.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

It's like the heavy selection but stronger...at least in the DPS. Again 3 LPPCs (which is the limit) is near equivalent in DPS as 2 HPPCs (which is also the limit). So the difference between the two is alpha (16.5 vs 30) but also tonnage (9 tons vs 20 tons). On paper LPPCs are waaaaay more efficient than HPPCs but ghost heat keeps them from really being used on heavier mechs. That is the niche, and it helps IS lights threaten at mid range in a way they were never able to compared to Clan lights.

The heat tho?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 08:14 AM, said:

Also, no one would use HPPCs if the limit was one. I mean I guess they might if the damage was bumped to 20, but what are you going to combine it with at that point. I guess you could make it the light weapon but the tonnage requirement is pretty high for a weapon meant for lights.

Lighter and better range than an AC20 tho.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 08 October 2023 - 04:38 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

It would be an interesting dynamic as a mix with standard or ultra ac10s/ac5s, if it had the heat for it, but it doesn't.

What do you mean, it already does that? You use LPPCs to stack alpha with the AC5s/UAC5s. If you want more DPS, use more dakka. If you make a low weight weapon spammable, why even bother with AC5s at all? Why not just boat LPPCs and fire groups of them? That's legit the dynamic of ballistics vs energy weapons in this game for better or worse. Ballistics offer better DPH than you can overcome with heat sinks (at least on the IS side). So if you want to stack DPS you go pure dakka, alpha you go energy, a mix you mix them up together (Gauss being the special exception here).

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

The heat tho?

The DPH are practically the same so similar HPS and DPS. But that's fine for lights. Lights like things they can burst with. Take 2-3 pokes from an off-angle, reposition, repeat. Also no minimum range which is great for playing anti-light as well.

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

Lighter and better range than an AC20 tho.

Yeah, but that isn't saying much because the AC20 hasn't really been relevant since the Boomapult days (aka before HSR). It lives in a bad spot due to being a heavy ballistic and also short range. Limitations around what can also use it based on engines and armature also don't help matters. All in all, it's not a great weapon.

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

CERPPC is 6 tons with 15 damage, on top of clan space magick. I have to say no on that one.

That 15 damage is not the same as LPPCs though, while I argued about the SNPPC back when it got overbuffed that the splash damage does count for something, it shouldn't be treated as equivalent to full PPFLD either. Speaking of which SNPPC also exists for the IS and yeah, Clan lights are jealous of that too (it does do equivalent damage, for under 2/3 the heat of the ERPPC). Lights don't need that ER portion of the PPC.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 05:34 PM, said:

What do you mean, it already does that?

Sure you can go dakka for full sustain, but it'll find more use if LPPCs to a degree could also sustain better.

I suppose, yes you can pad UACs with LPPCs for a stronger and faster burst DPS, but at that point you might as well use heavier PPCs to commit to high-alpha. So there's a point for improvement.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 05:34 PM, said:

The DPH are practically the same so similar HPS and DPS. But that's fine for lights. Lights like things they can burst with. Take 2-3 pokes from an off-angle, reposition, repeat. Also no minimum range which is great for playing anti-light as well.

Yeah, with lights. But the application is that of heavier mechs, mixing it with ACs. A heat buff won't move mountains, but certainly better for lights and heavier mechs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 05:34 PM, said:

Yeah, but that isn't saying much because the AC20 hasn't really been relevant since the Boomapult days (aka before HSR). It lives in a bad spot due to being a heavy ballistic and also short range. Limitations around what can also use it based on engines and armature also don't help matters. All in all, it's not a great weapon.

Yeah, it's a tight spot, but it's powerful and can come around. Unfortunately, the way they handle it is more about quirking mechs for it, than the weapon being good on it's own. Come to think of it, many weapons could just do plain buff and just reduce the quirks on the specialist.

One more issue with quirking as balance point is that AC20s can't +HSL by default it because those that +HSL-quirked with it will lose the point. It can possibly be longer range, at 360m, along with UAC20, it'll have more relevance but away from brawling. If not longer optimal range, certainly maybe Maximum range at 3x instead of 2x, would at least make it better.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 05:34 PM, said:

That 15 damage is not the same as LPPCs though, while I argued about the SNPPC back when it got overbuffed that the splash damage does count for something, it shouldn't be treated as equivalent to full PPFLD either.

Yeah, but it's not a full-on ensemble of high-alpha ppfld either. It's 3 separate 5.5x that will inevitably spread. Lights are already starved for PPFLD options, but the ability to pad and saturate damage at least is still pretty useful. And guess what, Clan lights can max at 2 CERPPCs, whereas the IS lights at 3, 4 with +HSL.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 05:34 PM, said:

Speaking of which SNPPC also exists for the IS and yeah, Clan lights are jealous of that too (it does do equivalent damage, for under 2/3 the heat of the ERPPC). Lights don't need that ER portion of the PPC.

And that, I agree with the snubs, somewhat. Just not the Light PPCs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 08 October 2023 - 06:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 06:20 PM, said:

Yeah, with lights. But the application is that of heavier mechs, mixing it with ACs. A heat buff won't move mountains, but certainly better for lights and heavier mechs.

It still doesn't make sense, as you mentioned:

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 06:20 PM, said:

I suppose, yes you can pad UACs with LPPCs for a stronger and faster burst DPS, but at that point you might as well use heavier PPCs to commit to high-alpha.

Energy weapons aren't designed around sustain, and even if they were, they would need a tonnage tax to be associated with it otherwise you end up with a lighter Gauss rifle and the same issues we have with Gauss (it is one of the major reasons gauss vomit is so powerful). I'm not really sure what you are after, but the LPPC doesn't make sense for this regardless.

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 06:20 PM, said:

One more issue with quirking as balance point is that AC20s can't +HSL by default it because those that +HSL-quirked with it will lose the point. It can possibly be longer range, at 360m, along with UAC20, it'll have more relevance but away from brawling. If not longer optimal range, certainly maybe Maximum range at 3x instead of 2x, would at least make it better.

Both of those would help, 40 damage alphas at 270m isn't really that threatening these days so the HSL is a relic of a bygone era and it never made sense for it since it basically killed any relevance the weapon had, even at 360m, who cares considering Heavy Gauss can already do that and do it with a better velocity.

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 06:20 PM, said:

Yeah, but it's not a full-on ensemble of high-alpha ppfld either. It's 3 separate 5.5x that will inevitably spread. Lights are already starved for PPFLD options, but the ability to pad and saturate damage at least is still pretty useful. And guess what, Clan lights can max at 2 CERPPCs, whereas the IS lights at 3, 4 with +HSL.

No good Clan light is stacking 2 cERPPCs, yes the Cougar and Adder can but like the Urbie, those are poor mens' mediums, not really light mechs and unlike the Urbie, they aren't that great.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 October 2023 - 07:19 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 07:19 PM, said:

Energy weapons aren't designed around sustain, and even if they were, they would need a tonnage tax to be associated with it otherwise you end up with a lighter Gauss rifle and the same issues we have with Gauss (it is one of the major reasons gauss vomit is so powerful). I'm not really sure what you are after, but the LPPC doesn't make sense for this regardless.

The "not designed for this" is pretty much just a self-referential argument, it won't ever be built for it because it's not done that way currently.

It's not going to be a "lighter gauss", at least depending on how it's applied. A big component of the Gauss-Vomit is the gauss, duh, but it being a low-heat fast-projectile weapon. The LPPC in this regard, should have had reduced velocity that the desync with lasers require partitioning for proper lead.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 07:19 PM, said:

Both of those would help, 40 damage alphas at 270m isn't really that threatening these days so the HSL is a relic of a bygone era and it never made sense for it since it basically killed any relevance the weapon had, even at 360m, who cares considering Heavy Gauss can already do that and do it with a better velocity.

Well, power-creep it is.

I think the game needs to reign alpha, with lower heat capacity and dissipation, and lower GH limit in general. Looking back, the issue why 2x PPC was increased to 3x PPC is precisely because of 2x HPPC. If it were instead 3x LPPC, 2x PPC, and 1x HPPC, with the 2x PPC being the highest alpha around, then the standard PPCs retain relevance, and the HPPC could have been buffed by different means.

CERMLS from 6 down to 4, and the HML at 3. HLL at 1. This would make Clan-Vomit less problematic.

Etc. etc.

In short, the Cauldron should really work on reducing alpha, not bloating it, resulting in rampant quirks to compensate.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 07:19 PM, said:

No good Clan light is stacking 2 cERPPCs, yes the Cougar and Adder can but like the Urbie, those are poor mens' mediums, not really light mechs and unlike the Urbie, they aren't that great.

How dare you, heretic.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

The "not designed for this" is pretty much just a self-referential argument, it won't ever be built for it because it's not done that way currently.

It's not going to be a "lighter gauss", at least depending on how it's applied. A big component of the Gauss-Vomit is the gauss, duh, but it being a low-heat fast-projectile weapon. The LPPC in this regard, should have had reduced velocity that the desync with lasers require partitioning for proper lead.

If you reduce the velocity, you also reduce the sync with AC5s ironically, and the biggest component of gauss vomit is the high heat easy damage stacking combined with low heat alpha weapon. That said, it becoming like Gauss is less of a problem for right now due to the velocity being too slow, at least on non-quirked mechs.

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

Well, power-creep it is.

I think the game needs to reign alpha, with lower heat capacity and dissipation, and lower GH limit in general. Looking back, the issue why 2x PPC was increased to 3x PPC is precisely because of 2x HPPC. If it were instead 3x LPPC, 2x PPC, and 1x HPPC, with the 2x PPC being the highest alpha around, then the standard PPCs retain relevance, and the HPPC could have been buffed by different means.

It's only power creep if the meta shifts in the AC20's favor, which I highly doubt it will even with those changes. The PPCs have had the ghost heat limit of 3 for 90% of the history of ghost heat, even well before HPPCs/LPPCs.

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

CERMLS from 6 down to 4, and the HML at 3. HLL at 1. This would make Clan-Vomit less problematic.

You are punishing the wrong thing here. HMLs aren't even that powerful, this is PGI kind of logic. Gauss is what allows gauss vomit to be so powerful, because it provides easy DPS on top of laser vomit. cERML range is also a huge benefit to it, not the damage. HLLs are kinda meh as well, I think really only the Hellbringer might benefit from it as cLPLs are just the better option for most other Clan laser vomit. So again, this is just like the AC20 issue, you are taking a meh weapon (at least for Clans) and nerfing it into oblivion because "reasons".

The6thMessenger, on 08 October 2023 - 09:35 PM, said:

In short, the Cauldron should really work on reducing alpha, not bloating it, resulting in rampant quirks to compensate.

The problem isn't the alpha itself, it is the alpha plus the DPS. Reduce the effective DPS and you hamper it's ability to respond to pushes/rushes that involve weapons with better DPS. It needs the vulnerability because that typically is what dissuades people from taking it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 October 2023 - 06:36 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

If you reduce the velocity, you also reduce the sync with AC5s ironically, and the biggest component of gauss vomit is the high heat easy damage stacking combined with low heat alpha weapon. That said, it becoming like Gauss is less of a problem for right now due to the velocity being too slow, at least on non-quirked mechs.

It's closer to the AC10 innit? I don't see the issue of the AC5 desynced with LPPC, I always thought that was for PPCs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

It's only power creep if the meta shifts in the AC20's favor, which I highly doubt it will even with those changes.

It's more like, it's not doing close range brawls a favor, it's just sticking to more peekaboo. While yeah, AC20 is more relevant with more range, but still.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

The PPCs have had the ghost heat limit of 3 for 90% of the history of ghost heat, even well before HPPCs/LPPCs.

Yeah, but could have been just 2.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

You are punishing the wrong thing here. HMLs aren't even that powerful, this is PGI kind of logic.

It's not yet problematic because it's not buffed to compensate. Such as say, abhorrent laser duration, and range.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

So again, this is just like the AC20 issue, you are taking a meh weapon (at least for Clans) and nerfing it into oblivion because "reasons".

I don't remember trying to nerf AC20. And as for the general nerf, I was talking the high-alpha meta in general. That is why "etc.", as everything else will follow to conform to the new world order.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 October 2023 - 06:33 AM, said:

The problem isn't the alpha itself, it is the alpha plus the DPS. Reduce the effective DPS and you hamper it's ability to respond to pushes/rushes that involve weapons with better DPS. It needs the vulnerability because that typically is what dissuades people from taking it.

Fair.

And with that regard, I think its that the game's heat system is too cold: base heat capacity at 50, dissipation hitting 5/s, DHS the norm. High-powered alphas are too easy to build and sustain. For example, the Mad-IIC, doing 6x CERML + 2x LPL, that has straight up +16 DHS, at 58 capacity and 5.72s h/s dissipation, it can straight up burn 2 to 3 times before overheating, 62 damage each of those.

Of course the Cauldron has to stack up armor quirks to compensate.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

It's closer to the AC10 innit? I don't see the issue of the AC5 desynced with LPPC, I always thought that was for PPCs.

It is equidistant between the AC5 and AC10/UAC5, 1500/1400/1300 respectively. Provided it doesn't have velocity quirks that ruin that. Velocity quirks are one of those things that just should have never been done, similar with duration quirks, they change the nature of the weapons too much and can ruin synergies as much as they can create them.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

It's more like, it's not doing close range brawls a favor, it's just sticking to more peekaboo. While yeah, AC20 is more relevant with more range, but still.

In a brawl yes, it favors for the poke on the outside of the brawl. For pushes though short range is short range, whatever is gonna help you blow through long range mechs before they scatter and are able to whittle you down.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

Yeah, but could have been just 2.

It could have, they would've had to boost the damage output a little bit like they did for LPPCs, I'm just not sure who the target of that would be because I don't think it would've worked for mediums very well but who knows, maybe if that stupid minimum range was gone it wouldn't be as bad.

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

It's not yet problematic because it's not buffed to compensate. Such as say, abhorrent laser duration, and range.

This kinda goes back to the hold bland thing, what do HMLs offer at that point. I mean I don't like what they provide currently necessarily, but what you are talking about isn't any better. What the piece to the puzzle that they fulfill on the Clan side?

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

I don't remember trying to nerf AC20. And as for the general nerf, I was talking the high-alpha meta in general. That is why "etc.", as everything else will follow to conform to the new world order.

Alpha has a place in the game, but it should be higher risk than it currently is. AC20s don't really have alpha or DPS at the current state, not enough to justify its tonnage. Now two of them at least provide some alpha even if they are heavy. Really this kinda goes back to one of the biggest issues in this game. Things were added without figuring out what their contribution to this game should be and ensuring that they stick with that vision (or at least the new vision makes sense). Most of the balancing in this game reeks of slapdash stuff that they threw in to appease the fanbase more than ensure its health (short term sugar rush for long term come down).

The6thMessenger, on 09 October 2023 - 04:46 PM, said:

And with that regard, I think its that the game's heat system is too cold: base heat capacity at 50, dissipation hitting 5/s, DHS the norm. High-powered alphas are too easy to build and sustain. For example, the Mad-IIC, doing 6x CERML + 2x LPL, that has straight up +16 DHS, at 58 capacity and 5.72s h/s dissipation, it can straight up burn 2 to 3 times before overheating, 62 damage each of those.

On this I agree, which is why the dissipation buff after the PTS was dumb, it didn't help or hurt alpha builds like Gauss vomit or laser vomit, all it did was power creep the game.

That said, heat sinks are in need of a revamp, particularly the balance between iDHS and cDHS. cDHS combined with clan's endo and ferro just allow you to blow past iDHS in builds. Barring any weapons and running a STD engine (which is also just not worth the tonnage), you can mount 14 DHS on an IS mech. While a Clan mech can fit 25, and that matters especially since Clan mechs also have the better weight savings.

I don't really care about the heat capacity as much, I do think it was high but I think it should be handled per mech, same with base dissipation; no different than mobility is. Trying to keep things uniform to a system that just doesn't make any sense in this game is how we have this mess in the first place. Heat sinks should allow you bump it no different than bumping engines up increases speed, but you shouldn't be able to alter things as significantly (and ideally with diminishing returns much like engines).