27 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 11 October 2023 - 04:55 PM, said:

Unfortunately, lore purists don't want that.

I thought they would be far and few between by now tbh.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2023 - 03:57 PM, said:

I honestly don't think it is possible other than as a potentially slightly weaker option to the DHS (like 0.18-0.2/s) when you are space constrained to try to compete with Clan DHS if you have the tonnage but not the space. Other than I don't really see anything really providing compensation. Kinda why at this point I'd rather just have a universal heat sink. If you find an interesting mechanic it could always be re-introduced but until such time, seems healthier for the game to just have one.

i don't think you can flat out buff shs dissipation without hurting dhs. in fact leave dissipation alone entirely. emphasize heat tanking to give it some more use cases. being able to tank heat is useful on stealth builds, or for general hit and run builds, giving it more utility with lights and fast mediums.

i noticed in mech db if you install a 250 engine, you get a default 50 heat capacity with dubs and 52.5 with singles. buff that to like 55 (this is the same capacity as 20 doubles with only 10 shs) so you can get more entry level tank, which will help lighter builds, and then nerf the capacity-per-sink (say to 0.75) slightly so mechs with > 20 heat sinks cant fire forever. so 55 for your first 10 plus 0.75 per extra sink. buffing it directly to say 0.9 would not give the entry level buff and might make the sink boats op.

The6thMessenger, on 11 October 2023 - 04:55 PM, said:

Could also just let Heat Sink mixing, with fixed engine heat sink types. As in you can put SHS where a DHS won't fit when you got the slots but has the tons.

Unfortunately, lore purists don't want that.

im not even sure heat sink mixing is strictly forbidden by lore. mw5 lets you do it. the super griffin prototype used both dubs and singles. the dhs article has a lot of info on non standard types, but some of those are usually dubs you can use with singles. usually the engine is configured for single sinks with a couple external dubs installed. for light mechs (or any mech running a small engine) this would be ideal, you could have 7 singles in the engine, with 2 dubs and a singles externally mounted. it would give you a little more sinkage on these mechs rather than running a pure shs config, and this might require a quirk. id set it up where you can install dubs on an shs build but not vise versa (though thats negotiable).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 11 October 2023 - 07:00 PM, said:

i don't think you can flat out buff shs dissipation without hurting dhs. in fact leave dissipation alone entirely. emphasize heat tanking to give it some more use cases. being able to tank heat is useful on stealth builds, or for general hit and run builds, giving it more utility with lights and fast mediums.

i noticed in mech db if you install a 250 engine, you get a default 50 heat capacity with dubs and 52.5 with singles. buff that to like 55 (this is the same capacity as 20 doubles with only 10 shs) so you can get more entry level tank, which will help lighter builds, and then nerf the capacity-per-sink (say to 0.75) slightly so mechs with > 20 heat sinks cant fire forever. so 55 for your first 10 plus 0.75 per extra sink. buffing it directly to say 0.9 would not give the entry level buff and might make the sink boats op.

I meant to mention the heat capacity nonsense would need to be wiped out as well because no one cares about heat capacity if your dissipation is nerfed that much. Basically the trade off would be if you need more than 8-14 heat sinks outside of the engine, you might try SHS instead so it would be more worthwhile for larger IS laser vomit mechs.

[The6thMessenger]

Question, where did the 50 base dissipation came from anyways?

And 50 vs 52.5 -- dude the difference is just 2.5. I don't see why the SHS capacity would be that significant.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2023 - 07:33 PM, said:

I meant to mention the heat capacity nonsense would need to be wiped out as well because no one cares about heat capacity if your dissipation is nerfed that much. Basically the trade off would be if you need more than 8-14 heat sinks outside of the engine, you might try SHS instead so it would be more worthwhile for larger IS laser vomit mechs.

I actually remembered the post energy-draw experiment PGI made, where they were trying to reduce Clan Alpha, and what they came up with is reducing heat capacity but increasing dissipation, raising the over all DPS as a result.

They could make it so that there's different base capacity with SHS, that one allows multiple burn at a single moment. The other has significantly less burns, but can quickly get back up. But no, I don't think that is achieved right now. Heat Capacity differential is still not that distinct enough.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 October 2023 - 09:01 PM.

[Curccu]

Nerf heatcap to 30 with 10 HS must (which would be enough to shoot any x amount of weapons in the game before breaking ghost heat) DHS can add heat cap by very little, IS ones a bit more and SHS a lot more.
So you could have bigger alphas (still smaller than we got now) with SHS but sustained DPS would be better with DHS due better dissipation.

Edited by Curccu, 11 October 2023 - 09:47 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 11 October 2023 - 08:59 PM, said:

I actually remembered the post energy-draw experiment PGI made, where they were trying to reduce Clan Alpha, and what they came up with is reducing heat capacity but increasing dissipation, raising the over all DPS as a result.

I'm still dubious that dissipation needed increasing. I mean dropping heat capacity and making cool shots have less immediate impact on your heat definitely helps reduce Clan alphas, but I think you would need to let the dust settle before going so far to increase dissipation to compensate especially when Clan laser vomit typically has the better DPS compared to their IS counterparts as well which is in part because Clans can just mount way more heat sinks than the IS counterpart laser vomit. The only advantage IS laser vomit has outside of giga quirks is really duration, and that seems to matter less these days.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 October 2023 - 06:22 AM, said:

I'm still dubious that dissipation needed increasing. I mean dropping heat capacity and making cool shots have less immediate impact on your heat definitely helps reduce Clan alphas, but I think you would need to let the dust settle before going so far to increase dissipation to compensate especially when Clan laser vomit typically has the better DPS compared to their IS counterparts as well which is in part because Clans can just mount way more heat sinks than the IS counterpart laser vomit. The only advantage IS laser vomit has outside of giga quirks is really duration, and that seems to matter less these days.

Not buff, but the distance between that makes the concept. That the Low Heat-Cap high Dissipation that will cater to sustained DPS use, with enough offset to be distinct into High heat-cap low dissipation for high moment alpha use.

As in for repeated strikes, you go DHS, but for high alpha -- that will cater heavily to incredibly packed laser-vomit, you go SHS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 October 2023 - 01:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 12 October 2023 - 01:56 PM, said:

Not buff, but the distance between that makes the concept. That the Low Heat-Cap high Dissipation that will cater to sustained DPS use, with enough offset to be distinct into High heat-cap low dissipation for high moment alpha use.

As in for repeated strikes, you go DHS, but for high alpha -- that will cater heavily to incredibly packed laser-vomit, you go SHS.

I mean I guess, but sustained DPS builds tend to be strapped for space to begin with so trying to design heat sinks around that seems like it really wouldn't have the desired effect.