26 replies to this topic

[THESHARK94]

why players go cap base if doesn't give any benefits to the team?
when it happen i always get the red arrow because the game last only two minutes and i have no time to make any match point

[Void Angel]

Sometimes people just want to kick the ball - like little kids playing soccer - and any win is good in their mind. Sometimes they may be trying to turn the enemy team, and just shrug and say, "well, screw it then, we're capping it out" if no one comes to kill them (or their team is down on kills.) Or it could be that they do not like the map, and are capping to make the next match happen - or even just to troll, for whatever reason.

It's not a normal occurrence, though.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Even in a short game, player match scores are ranked and PSRs go up or down so someone is still getting green arrows.

[Void Angel]

Sure, but it might only be the players capping, plus a few randos. Remember when Raven hitboxes were still broken, and Raven 4-mans would load up capture modules and speed cap to troll? When a match ends that fast, a lot of the time it's just luck who gets PSR and who doesn't - and nobody's getting enough c-bills to be worth their time.

[epikt]

I don't play for PSR, match score, cbills, etc... so I don't mind if I don't get rewards. I play for the win (not that winning is important, it's not and I'm not mad when I lose, but the win is the objective of the game and aiming at it is part of the fun) and it includes capping in assault and conquest.

If you get capped, it's your fault for not covering your base. Play accordingly.

[Void Angel]

Not necessarily. Depending on match composition, it can be literally impossible for a team to get back to the base in time. But even so, this isn't a solo game, and actually playing the game is also part of the fun. Given that it's totally unneccesary for players to "win" by rushing the base and gambling that the enemy team won't respond (or be able to respond) in time, it makes sense to disapprove of this behavior. Remember, the OP isn't frustrated with captures in general, but in rush caps - and while rush capping isn't technically against the ToS (it actually is griefing, but that's problematic to enforce,) it IS rude, and wastes everyone else's time and effort.

[martian]

THESHARK94, on 10 October 2023 - 12:48 PM, said:

why players go cap base if doesn't give any benefits to the team?
when it happen i always get the red arrow because the game last only two minutes and i have no time to make any match point

Do not think about the green arrows and red arrows as a punishment.

The PSR is a matchmaking tool and it is intended to give each player the games that would be most suited to his playstyle.

In your case, PSR is trying to move you to the most appropriate Tier for you, i.e. Tier that is filled with the players who think that standing still in the blinking square in some empty remote corner of the map is how MechWarrior games should be played.

[epikt]

Void Angel, on 10 October 2023 - 04:24 PM, said:

Depending on match composition, it can be literally impossible for a team to get back to the base in time.

That's exactly why you need to play with the possibility of a cap in mind.

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actually playing the game is also part of the fun.

Cap is also part of playing the game. It adds an element of mind game to the fight.

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rush capping isn't technically against the ToS (it actually is griefing, but that's problematic to enforce,) it IS rude, and wastes everyone else's time and effort.

I don't think cap rushes are griefing. It's part of the game.
And it's your job to spot if the enemy has a lance full of cap Spiders (by yours I mean the team's as a whole, obviously). If people were not so blinded by their fight-kill-boom-bam mindset they'd play more carefully.

I'm personally a light and pseudo-light main, and as a fast mech it's often on me to go back to the base first and see what's on it, so I keep that in check.
<little story, read it or not> Earlier this morning, we had two enemy Spider-5V rushing our base on Emerald, it was spotted and I called for it. The enemy team was following, looking like they were cutting our main body from the base. That's a good move imho, and I must say our team wasn't up for the task, keeping the nascar or whatever. I died defending the base without any support, and if I had to hold grievance to someone it wouldn't be my enemies. Turned out they didn't cap anyway, it was just a bait and I fall for it (again, it's part of the mind game), or they just didn't follow on their threat, i don't know. In the end, they lost, while they had the victory in their hand the whole time... </little story>
Anyway, I don't find their rush is griefing, not even if they had followed on their threat.

That being said, on some maps (Polar Highlands for example) the bases are too far away to proper control, but it's a map problem not a game mode problem.

[KursedVixen]

assault use to have 4 laser turrets at the base to deter bad light pilots from capping. It wouldn't stop a lance or a whole team from capping but it defintly was a deterrent, of course too many bad light pilots whined and they were removed... bad decision i think.

I proposed a change to both assault and conquest where the captured bases would slowly repaired and rearmed allied mechs....

Sometimes people accidentally run over the cap, I know I do this ,though I try to avoid touching the cap in assault unless the plan calls for it, typically one person capping even with the accelerator will die before the base is capped.

I'm also fairly sure capping the base in assault gives you less points than killing the enemy.


Now for conquest... really need a good reason to cap points, sure yeah your score goes up until 750 but what benifit is there? if you have a competent team you could probably cover 2 cap points and just hunt down anyone who comes near.... so i really think there needs to be a benifit to capping points in conquest my repair and rearm idea might work, but it needs to be fairly balanced to not be abused.

Edited by KursedVixen, 11 October 2023 - 04:12 AM.

[epikt]

I'm confused...
I mean, what's the reason to score points in basketball? Seems kind of arbitrary to pass a ball into a circle, it doesn't feed me and gives the ball to the other team... because it's the objective of the game, what better reason do you need??????? O_o'

I have no real opinion on bringing turrets back to assault, even if it's about giving more time for the team to react, I'd prefer to add time to the requirement to cap, rather that these boring turrets. Honestly, the time to cap feels enough to me (it take almost 4 minutes to cap, for one mech without quirks/skills).

On conquest, I find your idea really bad.
Not even considering the proper problem with on field repairs (imho an "heresy"), conquest is supposed to be a dynamic game mode with focus on movement and map control. Points are already difficult enough to flip when they are fully capped and overwatched, I don't want a bigger prime to the first capper.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I'm not a fan of rush capping, but it is a legitimate win strategy based on the game's rules--which is to cap the base or destroy all enemy units. It's not commonly seen because it doesn't pay out well. In a game like that, usually only the 3 or 4 people who managed to deal 200 damage in those first minutes get any kind of payout and that's not the lance that capped.

Capping used to be more common on some maps when we had 8v8 as it was easier to achieve, but mainly was used as a tactic to lure one or two of the enemy mechs off the front lines, or force the tag or narcing light to run home. If you could get the slider to go down low, you might force the enemy team to commit more resources to saving the cap. The idea was to get the enemy team to split up to defend their cap or lose, giving your team the advantage to push them. That's unfortunately not a tactic you see very often anymore, but can be an effective one. It works best after the main fight has progressed somewhat.

[Duke Falcon]

epikt, on 11 October 2023 - 05:37 AM, said:

Not even considering the proper problem with on field repairs (imho an "heresy"), conquest is supposed to be a dynamic game mode with focus on movement and map control. Points are already difficult enough to flip when they are fully capped and overwatched, I don't want a bigger prime to the first capper.

In reality a few lights and fast mediums ran to resource-point to resource-point while the rest of players meet in the middle resource-point to bash each others into dust and ashes. Dynamic by some means, sure...
I wonder how may Conquest works with class-limited matches, like only lights and mediums? Dynamism would be more possible, because such fast mechs usually force each others into dogfights or apply swift hit-and-run tactics... Maybe worth sometimes a dedicated event, hmmm?

[Void Angel]

epikt, on 11 October 2023 - 02:00 AM, said:

I don't think cap rushes are griefing. It's part of the game.

All griefing is part of the game. That is literally what separates it from hacking.

KursedVixen, on 11 October 2023 - 04:05 AM, said:

I'm also fairly sure capping the base in assault gives you less points than killing the enemy.

FAR fewer points, which is the crux of the OP's frustration - remember, we're not actually talking about capping per se. We're talking about rush capping before your own team has had a chance to really get into the fight. I actually will always vote for Assault over Skirmish, simply because having that alternate victory condition prevents things like One Last Squirrel just running away and drawing out the match, and because it enables deeper tactical gameplay like JZ describes. But there's a huge difference between using the alternate condition as a part of the fight, and 'mechs running capture assist skill nodes really can cap it before significant forces can respond on larger maps.

Capture is not the point of the game - nor even is winning. If winning is "the objective," then the only problem with hacking is if you get caught - winning is only part of the point of the game. Nobody downloaded this game to play a 'mech racing simulator; we downloaded a Battlemech combat game, and we want to do Battlemech combat. Cap the point to within an inch and then finish if your team is losing the fight? Sure! But don't ruin everyone else's match, then shrug and say, "it's part of the game."

[Tarl Cabot]

Issue with Assault is that most team ignore it and nascar to the right instead of playing one of the objectives. Conquest has several caps to force movement or split up forces. Incursion should have been combination of the current Assault (timer once all points destroyed for Incursion, and a tad more heavily armed/armored.

Another issue, especially with Canyon Network is one team had/takes a longer route to get to the enemy base while the other team path is shorter/quicker, but still most teams/groups do not play tactically. It is nice when a team doesnt nascar like lemmings but go left/center left, generally forcing the other team to reverse/hunker down in the gulley while the other side has the high ridges.

[epikt]

Void Angel, on 11 October 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

All griefing is part of the game. That is literally what separates it from hacking.

Euh, no.
For example hiding when last player alive is against ToS and can be reported.
On the other hand, capping is the objective.
Definitely not the same thing.

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If winning is "the objective," then the only problem with hacking is if you get caught

WAT???

There are things like sportsmanship and fair-play, ever heard of them?
There are rules in a game, and it's the point to challenge ourselves and each others within the boundary of these rules.
I personally don't care if I lose, and I'd take a close and fair defeat over a stomp in my favor any day. Yet, when I'm playing my objective is victory. Doesn't mean I'm gonna cheat.

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Nobody downloaded this game to play a 'mech racing simulator; we downloaded a Battlemech combat game, and we want to do Battlemech combat

I can hear that.
But my point is if you play with the possibility of being capped in mind, you'll have your mech combat because you'll deploy in order to be able to respond. You're only denied this combat if you play brainlessly not paying attention to the rules.

[Void Angel]

epikt, on 12 October 2023 - 08:54 AM, said:

There are things like sportsmanship and fair-play, ever heard of them?
,,, when I'm playing my objective is victory. Doesn't mean I'm gonna cheat.

This is exactly my point. There are ALWAYS things other than simply winning to consider - and capping the base while your team is all yelling at you to stop, stop, they want to play isn't automatically ok just because it gets a win and isn't expressly forbidden by the ToS. Don't confuse the method of determining a win with the reason people play the game. The goal of basketball is to win by scoring the most points, but it's also customary for a team that's blowing out a competitor to put all their bench into the game and pull their starters. I'm not advocating that in MWO - it's not really possible, after all - but the point is that there's more to every game than just winning, unless you've got significant stakes on the line. For a fun MMO game, I sincerely hope that's not the case. =]

The point I'm trying to make about the "just remember the cap point" position is that it's not always possible to prevent a cap for any given player. That 48kph Fafnir may simply be unable to make it back to the cap point, if the capping 'mech times it right; or he may be unable to make it without exposing himself to long-range fire; or the capping player may be on his own team, and he's just frustrated because he doesn't get to play after walking halfway across the map.

You'll remember those Raven premades, Back in the Day. They loaded up capture modules and ran by the back roads to cap the base - literally the only way to stop them doing that was to camp the base itself, and bases aren't generally too defensible... you had to flip a coin to see whether you got a Raven troll team. If you did, yay, you win! If you didn't, you get slaughtered because the enemy team holds all the key terrain. I don't think capping is quite that fast today, although I haven't tested it because I have a soul. But it still serves as an excellent example of two points here: that griefing is not limited to specific examples listed in the ToS; and that it's not always feasible to stop a cap, particularly with low-tier players who may not be able to safely disengage to get back there.

So while of course we should all pay attention to the objectives, we should also expect our teammates to be teammates in good faith and not cap out the base just to buff their win/loss ratio.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 October 2023 - 11:13 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Again, in reality, base rushes rarely happen and the gist I've heard from everyone in those games is "lame" from both sides. It's not fun for anyone, and doesn't pay out well, so fortunately, it's not really a widespread problem. But you see it occasionally, which is ok.

Assault would be more fun if the bases were more...well actual bases, with walls and various structures and maps designed for it. We don't have that here. Now, if you amped it up with some of what we got with incursion, it might be a little more interesting.

[Void Angel]

I'm pretty sure it happened more than once for the OP to ask about it on the forums. Whether a problem is widespread isn't really too important to a discussion of the problem, unless someone is advocating that changes be made.

[Fr3d0x]

A solution to entice the team to cap can be giving (example) 300 match points to every member of the team if the win is for cap. In that case, the red arrows would be avoided and the team would be more proactive to help teammates to cap the base. Atm you can only get bored by winning the game like this without shooting a single shot and even getting a "derank".

[Void Angel]

That would incentivize capping without fighting, though. The problem the OP is encountering is that some players will rush cap the base just to "get a win," resulting in a boring match that wastes everyone's time - on both teams. If cap rushers can get better rewards for doing it, they will do it more often.