207 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

foamyesque, on 25 October 2023 - 11:13 AM, said:

Honestly, I'd keep the original spread, their current burst duration, and drop the velocity atop. It'd sharply differentiate them from standard gauss and help keep cUACs a working alternative, and bring them more into a short-to-midrange play than the mid-long-to-long one they're currently dominating.

Yep they are pretty good between 0-1000m can do enough even further away to make "real" snipers hide.

[KursedVixen]

Curccu, on 25 October 2023 - 12:07 AM, said:

Tested on testing grounds atlas goes cleanly from CT with HAG40s 550m away, zero hits to other locations because of spread.

Catapult died by CT from a bit over 1000m away, some spread to STs.

I don't think those mechs are skilled up to max armor and structure or reduce crit chance.

foamyesque, on 25 October 2023 - 11:13 AM, said:

Honestly, I'd keep the original spread, their current burst duration, and drop the velocity atop. It'd sharply differentiate them from standard gauss and help keep cUACs a working alternative, and bring them more into a short-to-midrange play than the mid-long-to-long one they're currently dominating.

I wish they'd left them as they first were wide spread beyond 500 ish with low enough to poke someone at long range...

[Curccu]

KursedVixen, on 25 October 2023 - 01:44 PM, said:

I don't think those mechs are skilled up to max armor and structure or reduce crit chance.

Neither of those things affect that they died from CT with those ranges.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 25 October 2023 - 02:04 PM, said:

Neither of those things affect that they died from CT with those ranges.

^This

But I don't think the CoF is as important as the stream duration, and to a cognizant player -- not the dumbfucks in the soup-q, it's on them to spread the damage around so it doesn't focus on CT.

Meep Meep, on 25 October 2023 - 10:07 AM, said:

Heat seems about right now especially for dual hag30 builds. My ultimate solution though would be to reduce spread to nothing and return the burst to the original .11 per pellet but decrease velocity to just above er ppc levels.

Id like that too.

But Tiy0s told me that the duration nerf is to prevent HAG30s poptarting, so the duration pretty much can't be altered. So I guess we have to live with pin-point HAGs.

Maybe they are just sick and tired of your HAG-30 Scat.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 October 2023 - 04:03 PM.

[Frost_Byte]

I posted this in the wrong thread. Meant to post here.

Cauldron doesn't make maps. That's done 100% by PGI by very little Cauldron input.

We can scratch that one off the conspiracy board.

[feeWAIVER]

Frost_Byte, on 25 October 2023 - 03:36 PM, said:

I posted this in the wrong thread. Meant to post here.

Cauldron doesn't make maps. That's done 100% by PGI by very little Cauldron input.

We can scratch that one off the conspiracy board.

I just had to read the whole thread to get context for this.
Literally one person mentioned maps, and we have an official PGI snark response to defend the honor.
We're living in an era where PGI is making OP Legend mechs specifically for their friends in the Cauldron, while Cauldron is doing interviews where they openly refer to the customer base as"the brown sea."

At this point you're lucky people even post here at all anymore. Why should anyone? Frankly, the whole thing starts to look like an incestuous circle jerk. An unprofessional and low rent operation.

[Vincefeld]

brawling is now completely worthless. so just downsize your engines everyone and run as much hagvomit as possible.
LRM is dead too, so you cant even counter them like that.

your best bet would be running clan light-mediums with lots of SRM to get behind em and one shot their @ss

[Frost_Byte]

Brawling is quite strong in MWO at the moment. Plenty of powerful options. It's my favorite playstyle and I often default to it when playing.

Scaleshot, Koloss, Catapult A1, Marauder II 4HP, Crusader 6T, Assassin 21, Dervish, Phoenix Hawk 7S, Firestarter, Mist Lynx, and more are all powerful brawlers.

For bigger ones, you have to be more intelligent and have good map awareness to have good pathing to approach without getting shot. It is easier to play range, sure. But if you have the skill and patience to get close then it is perfectly viable.

Most times I see someone saying brawling is bad and watch them play, they either lack the pathing skill to close effectively and safely or lack the patience and just run in and die without waiting for the right opening.

[Hawk819]

On that note, Frost, I have this to say:

You guys complain about how the weapons work, and how much nerf/buff those weapons get.

Firstly, stop complaining and just enjoy them as they are, or don't.

Secondly, for those who're complaining about HAGs, be glad Matt & Co, went with HAGs, and not RACs.

YES, the Clans have RACs. Same Mechanic, Same Size/Critical Space, and Same weight as their Inner Sphere Counterparts.

I for one, would love some RAC-Rampage in a nice Ebon Jaguar X, which has an RAC/5 on its left arm. In fact, I'd slap two of those, and then run down an Atlas with it, and say, "take two and call me in the morning."

So I'm enjoying the weapons as they are. And seriously looking over variants lorewise that have them. So I can run those variants, and have some serious fun.

[The6thMessenger]

feeWAIVER, on 25 October 2023 - 04:23 PM, said:

I just had to read the whole thread to get context for this.

Eh well, it's technically true in a sense that it is indeed PGI's creation. But come on, the designs are catered for sniper gameplay; the fishbowl maps, flat maps, near-360° sniper spots, etc. They don't have to make it, but they are the target audience, and with them handling balance I can certainly see a feedback loop.

feeWAIVER, on 25 October 2023 - 04:23 PM, said:

We're living in an era where PGI is making OP Legend mechs specifically for their friends in the Cauldron

They kinda have a suggestion channel on their discord, so they can at least hear your piece (or ignore it too). But yeah, hardpoint inflation seemed to me that they are losing discipline or something:

Spoiler

Frost_Byte, on 04 October 2023 - 05:34 PM, said:

There's a Piranha Adder now -- pretty sure it would have been a sea-snake. Fridge is trying to be half-way Nova, and the Urbie is trying to be a disco-ball.

feeWAIVER, on 25 October 2023 - 04:23 PM, said:

while Cauldron is doing interviews where they openly refer to the customer base as"the brown sea."

Well, we are kinda salty, that's kinda true. But it is a bit concerning that they are quick to filter out and deem "one wants this" suggestion as trolls as put by Bearclaw, which I could see it turning into an echo-chamber.

Hawk819, on 25 October 2023 - 05:03 PM, said:

YES, the Clans have RACs. Same Mechanic, Same Size/Critical Space, and Same weight as their Inner Sphere Counterparts.

Cursory look on sarna net says that's false. Such as in the instance of RAC5, Crit-Slot is actually 8 for clans, but just 6 for IS. RAC 2 is 4 for Clans, 3 for IS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 October 2023 - 05:20 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 25 October 2023 - 05:05 PM, said:

flat maps

What flat maps are you talking in about .

I got Mechwarrior 4 to work recently and decided to take a look into things to see if I remembered some things correctly and checked out some of the maps in that game, and woo buddy, they had some flat maps and a lot less cover (though maps were also significantly less claustrophobic too).

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 October 2023 - 05:24 PM, said:

What flat maps are you talking in about .

I got Mechwarrior 4 to work recently and decided to take a look into things to see if I remembered some things correctly and checked out some of the maps in that game, and woo buddy, they had some flat maps and a lot less cover (though maps were also significantly less claustrophobic too).

Well, not that flat, of course a lot of features has been added. Most extreme example I would say is the alpine peaks, in a sense there's a lot of empty spaces in between and isn't as claustrophobic. Theres also like Tourmaline, there's a few ultra-high sniping spots there and wide-open space.

I also did some rebalance there as an optional file in Moddb, Cyberlord liked my laser adjustments. Not sure with the rest.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 October 2023 - 05:38 PM.

[VaelophisNyx]

Hawk819, on 25 October 2023 - 05:03 PM, said:

On that note, Frost, I have this to say:

You guys complain about how the weapons work, and how much nerf/buff those weapons get.

Firstly, stop complaining and just enjoy them as they are, or don't.

Ah yes just stop pointing out that they're blatantly overpowered in every role they can fill, lore inaccurate in how they operate. No I don't think most people will, myself included. HAGs need serious changes or the game's gonna have a serious shortage of players below T1/2 in a short time. This kind of weapon that can perform all roles excellently with minimal skill input is the kind of thing that kills games like this.

Frost_Byte, on 25 October 2023 - 04:52 PM, said:

Brawling is quite strong in MWO at the moment. Plenty of powerful options. It's my favorite playstyle and I often default to it when playing.

Brawling is theoretically strong but practically, snipers have dominated so long that it's impossible to counterplay reliably without just being a sniper. A one-note meta like this is absurdly boring.

Frost_Byte, on 25 October 2023 - 04:52 PM, said:

Most times I see someone saying brawling is bad and watch them play, they either lack the pathing skill to close effectively and safely or lack the patience and just run in and die without waiting for the right opening.

Your options when brawling are:
1. wait (your team evaporates because they're idiots and you're left 1v5+)
2. rush (you die because the map is made to make snipers have an easy time and half the enemy team was snipers)

there are no in-betweens.
Pair that with maps being designed such that there is no way for a brawler to effectively sneak up on anything for the bulk of them, without being singled out and erased by the entire enemy team because you tried to brawl.
Brawling is ~70% skill but you cannot ignore the ~30% luck input.
Sniping is minimal skill, minimal luck, minimal effort, maximum returns.



additionally:
Balance should be done around the average player, the bulk of the player base, not the top-end competitive player scene. (arguably you shouldn't even be balancing around *players* in the first place, as that leads to lopsided balance)

[The6thMessenger]

VaelophisNyx, on 25 October 2023 - 05:46 PM, said:

Brawling is theoretically strong but practically, snipers have dominated so long that it's impossible to counterplay reliably without just being a sniper.

Eh yea-no-yea-no-ish.

I'm pretty sure it works in comp -- as in the higher levels of play, as they intended. Where they, the highly practiced and coordinated bunch has the capacity to dethrone snipers. The problems with lower play is that they are timid and-or uncoordinated to facilitate where brawling would shine.

Shidd man, if you're a sniper, and team is rotating, chances are you could be left behind, so sniping isn't necessarily a successful play. Imagine being in a light or fast-med pack, the piranhas, the scaleshots, designed to move around quickly, if they are coordinated and good enough, they can certainly disable snipers and would eat you if you get left behind.

This is honestly is my stumbling block why I couldn't comprehensively test the HAGs at long-range use, because it's hard to be that 68kph Hunchback IIC that gets left behind, while the rest of the team chase the 100-ton squirrel despite the majority of the team bleeding from the different direction.

VaelophisNyx, on 25 October 2023 - 05:46 PM, said:

Balance should be done around the average player, the bulk of the player base, not the top-end competitive player scene. (arguably you shouldn't even be balancing around *players* in the first place, as that leads to lopsided balance)

I agree somewhat, but it makes better sense to have different balance for different environments.

For example, Flamers are weaker in Solaris -- take a guess why.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 October 2023 - 05:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 25 October 2023 - 05:35 PM, said:

Well, not that flat, of course a lot of features has been added. Most extreme example I would say is the alpine peaks, in a sense there's a lot of empty spaces in between and isn't as claustrophobic. Theres also like Tourmaline, there's a few ultra-high sniping spots there and wide-open space.

Alpine I will give you, that one has for some reason not been redone even though it has been the one that has most desperately needed it for ages. Tourmaline though, I'm kinda on the fence about. If this qp were 8v8, I think you would see a good mix on that map. I know 6v6 even during the heydey of the Night Gyr could get brawly on that map sometimes.

[Rhaelcan]

the check engine light, on 24 October 2023 - 10:27 PM, said:

You want to balance FP and Comp? Go ******* balance FP and Comp. Keep your **** out of the place that's supposed to be fun. You have driven down TTK constantly, over and ******* over, and expect people to belly up for this ****, to praise you and laud you for doing this.

You shouldn't be within a square mile of this game's balance. I don't give a good god's damn that you're the only ones who showed up to the party when you use the punchbowl as a toilet. You suck at making this game fun. The only thing you ******* care about is farming faster.

Would you rather have the game be shutdown?

feeWAIVER, on 25 October 2023 - 04:23 PM, said:

I just had to read the whole thread to get context for this.
Literally one person mentioned maps, and we have an official PGI snark response to defend the honor.
We're living in an era where PGI is making OP Legend mechs specifically for their friends in the Cauldron, while Cauldron is doing interviews where they openly refer to the customer base as"the brown sea."

At this point you're lucky people even post here at all anymore. Why should anyone? Frankly, the whole thing starts to look like an incestuous circle jerk. An unprofessional and low rent operation.

Cauldron usually makes the legends.

Hawk819, on 25 October 2023 - 05:03 PM, said:

On that note, Frost, I have this to say:

You guys complain about how the weapons work, and how much nerf/buff those weapons get.

Firstly, stop complaining and just enjoy them as they are, or don't.

Secondly, for those who're complaining about HAGs, be glad Matt & Co, went with HAGs, and not RACs.

YES, the Clans have RACs. Same Mechanic, Same Size/Critical Space, and Same weight as their Inner Sphere Counterparts.

I for one, would love some RAC-Rampage in a nice Ebon Jaguar X, which has an RAC/5 on its left arm. In fact, I'd slap two of those, and then run down an Atlas with it, and say, "take two and call me in the morning."

So I'm enjoying the weapons as they are. And seriously looking over variants lorewise that have them. So I can run those variants, and have some serious fun.

Actually, I think clan racs are larger.

[Rhaelcan]

VaelophisNyx, on 25 October 2023 - 05:46 PM, said:

Ah yes just stop pointing out that they're blatantly overpowered in every role they can fill, lore inaccurate in how they operate. No I don't think most people will, myself included. HAGs need serious changes or the game's gonna have a serious shortage of players below T1/2 in a short time. This kind of weapon that can perform all roles excellently with minimal skill input is the kind of thing that kills games like this.


Brawling is theoretically strong but practically, snipers have dominated so long that it's impossible to counterplay reliably without just being a sniper. A one-note meta like this is absurdly boring.



Your options when brawling are:
1. wait (your team evaporates because they're idiots and you're left 1v5+)
2. rush (you die because the map is made to make snipers have an easy time and half the enemy team was snipers)

there are no in-betweens.
Pair that with maps being designed such that there is no way for a brawler to effectively sneak up on anything for the bulk of them, without being singled out and erased by the entire enemy team because you tried to brawl.
Brawling is ~70% skill but you cannot ignore the ~30% luck input.
Sniping is minimal skill, minimal luck, minimal effort, maximum returns.



additionally:
Balance should be done around the average player, the bulk of the player base, not the top-end competitive player scene. (arguably you shouldn't even be balancing around *players* in the first place, as that leads to lopsided balance)

As someone who loves to brawl, you missed. You can poke and do damage, still.

[foamyesque]

Frost_Byte, on 25 October 2023 - 03:36 PM, said:

I posted this in the wrong thread. Meant to post here.

Cauldron doesn't make maps. That's done 100% by PGI by very little Cauldron input.

We can scratch that one off the conspiracy board.

Sure, but HAGs were powerful on release, got a quasi-nerf in the form of trading burst time for decreased spread -- whether that's a genuine nerf or not is debatable; it's really more of a sidegrade -- and then had their spread reduced again -- by half! -- in the latest patch for absolutely no apparent reason.

Maybe tell us what the story is on that, instead of the map thing.

Edited by foamyesque, 26 October 2023 - 12:08 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

foamyesque, on 25 October 2023 - 09:14 PM, said:

Sure, but HAGs were powerful on release, got a quasi-nerf in the form of trading burst time for decreased spread -- whether that's a genuine nerf or not is debatable; it's really more of a sidegrade -- and then had their spread reduced again in the latest patch for absolutely no apparent reason.

Maybe tell us what the story is on that, instead of the map thing.

No, burst duration is exactly a nerf. The point was that it prevents poptarting for the HAG30 -- apparently. So we can't really ask for the 0.11s burst interval back anymore. I felt that the HAGs pre-oct-patch was the most balanced it got.

As to WTF was the cauldron was thinking with the spread buff at oct-patch, I can't speak for them, but we all have a feeling that they just like long-range sniping lol.

HAGs have two component of spread, the CoF and the stream, both are working heavily to make sure that the damage is spread, but the COF is artificial and ensured and reduces effective range, while stream is controllable and dependent to the shooter aim and target twisting. It seems like they want to simply eliminate the randomness, and make it the factor of the shooter-aim/target-twisting. Also the range.

Honestly, I too was a supporter of zero-spread, the problem is that I also wanted the drawbacks of reduction of range but high max-range (maybe 540m-1640m) and velocity reduction (to 1600m/s, note that CERPPC is at 1650m/s). The HAGs simply just have no bussiness doing that much damage at such distance.

[Vonbach]

Frost_Byte, on 25 October 2023 - 04:52 PM, said:

Brawling is quite strong in MWO at the moment. Plenty of powerful options. It's my favorite playstyle and I often default to it when playing.

Lol your serious. HAHAHAHAHA. Good one! Brawling mechs are targets for snipers. Brawling is dead.