91 replies to this topic

[epikt]

RickySpanish, on 08 November 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

Guy's a good player and communicates with the team. He actually does have a good attitude.

I have to admit my post was kind of a gentle troll..

But I'm also serious when I say I feel completely alien to all those "cauldron's long range meta" complain threads, it's like we're not playing the same game. As I said elsewhere:
- I enjoy long range play (even if, let's be honest, I'm kind of bad at it) and I enjoy the trading game ; but it's not, far from it, all what I play (I'm actually most of a mid range skirmisher at heart)
- I feel the game is pretty balanced right now (not perfect, but good enough), and allows for multiple styles and weapons to shine.

== you can skip this anecdote if you're bored, I was carried away ==

I'll give as example the games I had this evening in event queue, 8v8 with drop decks on Ceres Scrapyard. Since it was event queue, we could select our mechs before the drop to make them fit the map. A map that, even if it has canyons to hide an approach, has long lines of sight (well, see my GIF earlier on this thread ^^). Yet, we dropped with a variety of mechs: long range snipers (like the Night Gyr-H with ERLLas+gauss), ERPPC poptarts (it was the good occasion to finish the XP on my Highlander-IIC), mid-range skirmishers like the Belial, but also some brawlers like the Arctic Wolf bomber or the Koloss. I even gave a chance to some DPS mechs like the Marauder II Alpha. And we encountered sneaky stealth mechs of all kind (it's the map they love) like Thanatos, Raven, etc, even some brave adventurers with lurms, some dakka (on the Nightstar for example, an ECM mech again but it the map that dictates this trend), the obvious Scaleshot, some x-pulses boats, etc...
Typically the games started with a mid to long range skirmish, with some flank here and there, and suddenly a charge that wipes one team (or not... but when you're facing 2 Koloss with your low DPS sniper build, you don't last long), counter strike with some fast mechs...
I won't say we saw all the variety of what MWO has to offer, after all it was only one map, with specific gameplay dictate by terrain, but it was varied enough we cannot affirm there is only one playstyle that would be favored by the meta.



edit: if you want to see what's a true long range meta, go watch comp games from the early days, before conquest became the main game mode - example here. It was pew pew scratch scratch at 1500m with blue lasers with no incentive to move unless one mech got unfortunately destroyed. It was boring as f*ck.

Edited by epikt, 08 November 2023 - 07:54 PM.

[LordNothing]

attrition play tends to be boring, in any game. fact of the matter is long range play can be enjoyable if you are kitted out for it. its just you dont know what you are going to get when you drop in qp. used to be you could make do with an intermediate range ballistic skirmisher. bet even those have become unworkable. its the death of other playstyles people are angry about.

there are workarounds. like at any given time the queue will tend towards a specific mood that you can infer from match vote. domination comes up when people want to brawl, rangy maps come up when people want to camp. people who vote conquest want to avoid combat and will do more hit and run and attrition play. so figure out what mood the mm/playuers are in and pick mechs accordingly, would be better if we can do a post vote mech select, but that's never gonna happen outside of fp.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 November 2023 - 08:51 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Vincefeld, on 07 November 2023 - 07:33 PM, said:

okay maybe not exactly balanced, it favored midrange if im 100% honest.

main culprit what made long range OP is ~800m optimal range on LL, PPC and gauss instead of previous ~600m
now i don't say revert back to old value, but please for love of mechs nerf quirks like "+25% AC/PPC velocity" and "+10-15%" range. they stack with skills and make game unbearable

LL and PPC are 480 and 540 m optimal, so I assume you are talking about ER versions. ERLL is 740m optimal, which is closer to 700 than 800 but let's assume 800 with quirks and skills.

When were those 800m weapons 600m weapons? Old Gauss did technically have a shorter optimal but it also had a 3x max range curve, so in reality it was a longer ranged weapon then than it is now.

I don't really buy the premise that we have a "long range OP" situation now, it doesn't seem that way at all to me, but if I look back at for example the dominant midrange meta from just after clan tech release (I think this was MWO's most one-sided and dominant metagame to date) there was already 800m+ weapons to use. That meta was determined by alpha size and heat efficiency of clan laservomit and gaussvomit, not by a lack of range on long range weapons.

[Weeny Machine]

Heavy Money, on 08 November 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

You mean when it was dominated by cERPPCs? Yes I remember that well.

You forget that ERPPCs were slower then than nowdays.

Curccu, on 07 November 2023 - 11:49 PM, said:

Yes I can remember time pre cauldron. It's the time I didn't play the game at all.

You don't need to sell it to us. We already think it was a better time.

RockmachinE, on 08 November 2023 - 03:07 AM, said:

Yea, that was the last time MWO was fun to play. They made a game they liked.

Ever since the caludron the balance is skewed and wonky.

They've also completely destroyed or made obsolete all forms of missile weaponry, especially the LRM.

Pretty much. The problem that the risk vs reward is completely out of whack. If you play close range you need to get close, take shots and get out. Brawling is even more dangerous because you will take hits. All the time you have to watch your head, watch UAVs, your positioning.

As a sniper you can waddle back, hide, coold down etc. and still deal enormous damage. The velocity is so high that hitting is much easier than in earlier times and laser...well...hitscan weapons for the win. If you draw attention and get fire on, the same: waddle back and take cover.

Add ECM to the scenario and things get even better for snipers.

Cauldron balance at its best.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 09 November 2023 - 11:38 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

epikt, on 08 November 2023 - 07:25 PM, said:

I have to admit my post was kind of a gentle troll..

But I'm also serious when I say I feel completely alien to all those "cauldron's long range meta" complain threads, it's like we're not playing the same game. As I said elsewhere:
- I enjoy long range play (even if, let's be honest, I'm kind of bad at it) and I enjoy the trading game ; but it's not, far from it, all what I play (I'm actually most of a mid range skirmisher at heart)
- I feel the game is pretty balanced right now (not perfect, but good enough), and allows for multiple styles and weapons to shine.

== you can skip this anecdote if you're bored, I was carried away ==

I'll give as example the games I had this evening in event queue, 8v8 with drop decks on Ceres Scrapyard. Since it was event queue, we could select our mechs before the drop to make them fit the map. A map that, even if it has canyons to hide an approach, has long lines of sight (well, see my GIF earlier on this thread ^^). Yet, we dropped with a variety of mechs: long range snipers (like the Night Gyr-H with ERLLas+gauss), ERPPC poptarts (it was the good occasion to finish the XP on my Highlander-IIC), mid-range skirmishers like the Belial, but also some brawlers like the Arctic Wolf bomber or the Koloss. I even gave a chance to some DPS mechs like the Marauder II Alpha. And we encountered sneaky stealth mechs of all kind (it's the map they love) like Thanatos, Raven, etc, even some brave adventurers with lurms, some dakka (on the Nightstar for example, an ECM mech again but it the map that dictates this trend), the obvious Scaleshot, some x-pulses boats, etc...
Typically the games started with a mid to long range skirmish, with some flank here and there, and suddenly a charge that wipes one team (or not... but when you're facing 2 Koloss with your low DPS sniper build, you don't last long), counter strike with some fast mechs...
I won't say we saw all the variety of what MWO has to offer, after all it was only one map, with specific gameplay dictate by terrain, but it was varied enough we cannot affirm there is only one playstyle that would be favored by the meta.



edit: if you want to see what's a true long range meta, go watch comp games from the early days, before conquest became the main game mode - example here. It was pew pew scratch scratch at 1500m with blue lasers with no incentive to move unless one mech got unfortunately destroyed. It was boring as f*ck.

It really depends. If you have on both sides a top tier premade, each usually looks for a spot and camps it. There is hardly any movement and it is a game of attrition. Then, when one side has a lead of 2-3 mechs, they engage. Sometimes even not then.

It is effing boring.

If pug is vs pug such a thing doesn't happen. A good premade vs pug...sometimes but it is usually a steamroll anyway. This is also boring but not that slow torture as mentioned above

Edited by Weeny Machine, 09 November 2023 - 11:30 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Well, down here in T4, you get a little of everything so it’s not so bad.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Davegt27]

yeah I remember when the matches where fun, I also remember when they nerfed ECM

it is what it is

[Widowmaker1981]

Weeny Machine, on 09 November 2023 - 11:29 AM, said:

It really depends. If you have on both sides a top tier premade, each usually looks for a spot and camps it. There is hardly any movement and it is a game of attrition. Then, when one side has a lead of 2-3 mechs, they engage. Sometimes even not then.

It is effing boring.

If pug is vs pug such a thing doesn't happen. A good premade vs pug...sometimes but it is usually a steamroll anyway. This is also boring but not that slow torture as mentioned above

Whats actually happening here is good players are recognising good players on the enemy team and playing more cautiously, because they know mistakes will be punished. You find that less fun because your mistakes also get punished harder, combined with less chaos to take advantage of.

Lopsided steamrolls are, indeed, boring.

Yes. funnily enough, the most fun games are the ones with no notably good enemies OR teammates, so you get lots of chaos and opportunity to murder stuff.

[epikt]

Weeny Machine, on 09 November 2023 - 11:29 AM, said:

It really depends. If you have on both sides a top tier premade, each usually looks for a spot and camps it. There is hardly any movement and it is a game of attrition. Then, when one side has a lead of 2-3 mechs, they engage. Sometimes even not then.

We really don't play the same game with the same "top tier premades". I'm glad when I see top players in the game because I know the game has better chances to, while staying dynamic (because those players know how to pressure the enemy), not devolve into a stupid headless goose chase without any sense. I know they will punish my mistakes and capitalize on them, so I play tight.
[Oh, don't make me say what I didn't say, there are certainly premades using cheap tactics, we all know them, but they are not close of being top-tier and can be countered]
Yesterday during the EQ drops I gave as example, there were very good players (as in top5 teams in CS23) in the same rotation, not really premades because groups were limited to 2 (but there was sync-drop)(which is funny because half of the time you end against your mates) and games were great, tense and as tactical as a non concerted drop can be. And yes mechs were especially chosen for this specific map, yes there was long range trade, but there was also mid and close range (and since there was respawns it didn't snowball immediately).

Sure, full solo PUGs can be fun, but it's usually so braindead you can't even take a position your team has already ran away, some player always throw the balance because they don't know how to fight with an overwatch and have some patience and tactical mindset, because "meeeuuh mano a mano combat".

If I kept statistics of my QP games I'm pretty sure the most satisfying on average would be the ones with premades to structure the teams. And those who include at least some part of long range combat.

Also, if you worry about a game of attrition, please vote for conquest, this is hands down the best mode. Why nobody vote conquest?

Edited by epikt, 09 November 2023 - 12:49 PM.

[Moadebe]

Vxheous, on 08 November 2023 - 02:58 PM, said:

Cauldron actually nerfed ECM (see Jan 2023 patch notes and then an additional clan nerf Aug 2023 patch notes) and also nerfed Radar Deprivation (see Dec 2022 patch notes) but let's not let facts get in the way of your argument here.

So going to Jan .....ALMOST a year ago.....

we see this....
Reduced Enhanced ECM skill node value to 20% per node (from 22.5%)

Then the clan changes were to 16% per node later...

And it is still as strong as it is....

As far as Radar dep....

Reduced Radar Deprivation skill node value to 19% per node (from 20%)

5%.....95% total

Which first of all is a USELESS nerf in how Radar Dep operates.

Secondly....as stated MULTIPLE times by people who know why this happened. It was for an unintentional bug. Its been stated by people in the cauldron and elsewhere.

Thanks MR literal for pointing me in the right direction of finding the last time any of this was touched. Saved me some time.

Edited by Moadebe, 09 November 2023 - 09:14 PM.

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 09 November 2023 - 11:25 AM, said:

You don't need to sell it to us. We already think it was a better time.

No we do not think so.

Is current status perfect? No far from it but maintenance Chris mode wasn't good either.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

epikt, on 08 November 2023 - 07:25 PM, said:

I have to admit my post was kind of a gentle troll..

But I'm also serious when I say I feel completely alien to all those "cauldron's long range meta" complain threads, it's like we're not playing the same game. As I said elsewhere:
- I enjoy long range play (even if, let's be honest, I'm kind of bad at it) and I enjoy the trading game ; but it's not, far from it, all what I play (I'm actually most of a mid range skirmisher at heart)
- I feel the game is pretty balanced right now (not perfect, but good enough), and allows for multiple styles and weapons to shine.

== you can skip this anecdote if you're bored, I was carried away ==

I'll give as example the games I had this evening in event queue, 8v8 with drop decks on Ceres Scrapyard. Since it was event queue, we could select our mechs before the drop to make them fit the map. A map that, even if it has canyons to hide an approach, has long lines of sight (well, see my GIF earlier on this thread ^^). Yet, we dropped with a variety of mechs: long range snipers (like the Night Gyr-H with ERLLas+gauss), ERPPC poptarts (it was the good occasion to finish the XP on my Highlander-IIC), mid-range skirmishers like the Belial, but also some brawlers like the Arctic Wolf bomber or the Koloss. I even gave a chance to some DPS mechs like the Marauder II Alpha. And we encountered sneaky stealth mechs of all kind (it's the map they love) like Thanatos, Raven, etc, even some brave adventurers with lurms, some dakka (on the Nightstar for example, an ECM mech again but it the map that dictates this trend), the obvious Scaleshot, some x-pulses boats, etc...
Typically the games started with a mid to long range skirmish, with some flank here and there, and suddenly a charge that wipes one team (or not... but when you're facing 2 Koloss with your low DPS sniper build, you don't last long), counter strike with some fast mechs...
I won't say we saw all the variety of what MWO has to offer, after all it was only one map, with specific gameplay dictate by terrain, but it was varied enough we cannot affirm there is only one playstyle that would be favored by the meta.



edit: if you want to see what's a true long range meta, go watch comp games from the early days, before conquest became the main game mode - example here. It was pew pew scratch scratch at 1500m with blue lasers with no incentive to move unless one mech got unfortunately destroyed. It was boring as f*ck.

Well I played with OP a few rounds on accident.
He made calls to just stand on enemy base and didnt know that the timer wont tick if you get shot in it.
Basic positioning was hard for him.
He basically lost the game with calls that wont work, because he didnt undstand core mechanics.
I an not surprised, that what he writes feels alienating.

[Moadebe]

Dr Cara Carcass, on 10 November 2023 - 02:10 AM, said:

Well I played with OP a few rounds on accident.
He made calls to just stand on enemy base and didnt know that the timer wont tick if you get shot in it.
Basic positioning was hard for him.
He basically lost the game with calls that wont work, because he didnt undstand core mechanics.
I an not surprised, that what he writes feels alienating.

And at least he was trying to call and lead the team.

Don't knock someone trying to actually call things. Don't like it...do it yourself.

Let them learn from failure. Each match is different.

Did you inform them that getting shot stops the cap? Perhaps try to teach instead of criticize?

So many people complain about no communication in matches. No one attempting to lead. No shot calling. Then when someone does....gets BLASTED to high hell because they screwed up or just didn't know better.

Do better. Be better.

[martian]

CFC Conky, on 09 November 2023 - 11:37 AM, said:

Well, down here in T4, you get a little of everything so it’s not so bad.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

I am happy to hear that you have fun in the game.

[Blood Rose]

CFC Conky, on 09 November 2023 - 11:37 AM, said:

Well, down here in T4, you get a little of everything so it’s not so bad.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Occasionally I forget myself and get bumped up to Tier 3.
I very quickly throw a bunch of matches and drop back to 4 again, 3+ is pure sniper domination. Why yes, I do love getting my torsos burnt off by lasers fired by units smugly sitting in the lovingly designed sniping spots that pretty much every map has. I do love getting swatted whilst trying to brawl because you pretty much have to hump cover in many of these maps or some LL/PPC/Gauss monster blows chunks off of you. At least in tier 4 you can find a variety of play styles and guided missiles are not always useless.

Thats also something - map design has massively moved to favour sniping. Frozen "city" with its no mechs trench, River "city" with its vast open river (though to be fair the fighting usually ends up revolving around the citadel), HPG "big sniper arena of death" manifold, Marik "sniperlanes" arena, Tourmaline "1.5K engagements are brawling" desert, Caustic "turkeyshoot" valley... The list goes on. We have maybe 2 good brawling maps, the rest are biased in favour of sniping.

[epikt]

Whines about snipers...

Yet:

[Mr S A T A N]

I love this game. It's better than it ever was from the last year and a half worth of core changes. Shame it took the game almost failing for them to finally do it..

[Weeny Machine]

epikt, on 10 November 2023 - 03:44 PM, said:

Whines about snipers...

Yet:

So, if these are whines, tell me where she was wrong (except the location thing)?

Edited by Weeny Machine, 11 November 2023 - 12:53 AM.

[Catra Lanis]

I just wait the snipers out, alt+tab is your friend.

[epikt]

Weeny Machine, on 11 November 2023 - 12:52 AM, said:

So, if these are whines, tell me where she was wrong (except the location thing)?

Oh, you know, I was just pointing the hypocrisy of by one hand bragging about being a filthy sniper and by the other hand complaining about "sniper meta".

As for being wrong, she is on at least 2 points:
- "snipers dominate": this is simply false. Snipers are viable, they are strong at the condition their team don't yolo out of their overwatch but they can be countered ; and they are not the dominating playstyle as most engagements happen at mid range (~500m)
- "long range is bad for the game" : I would elaborate, but it's been half of my posts last 2 days and I'm tired - tl;dr: mid/long range makes for more interesting and tactical combat.