99 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

HauptmanT, on 23 November 2023 - 02:45 PM, said:

I'm not making anything up, this isnt the only game in the world you know. There are hundreds of other battle royal games out there, ranging from 2v2 to 100v100.

This isn't a battle royale game, so not sure why you are comparing it to that. Most other team FPS actually have lower player counts, typically between 3v3 to 6v6. You do have some that are crazier like the BF and TF2 series that ups the anti on the chaos, but they are also less computationally intensive games and generally have much larger maps sort of similar to battle royale games to spread people out further with objectives as well. Those games though I would say typically hold less attention from people because they are very much drop in/drop out chaotic games.

[KingCobra]

Sneaky Snek, on 13 November 2023 - 01:30 PM, said:

Lately with increasing que times and very snowbally matches it feels like the quick play experience could benefit from having team sizes dropped down to 8 vs 8. This could bring about faster que times for everyone since teams would be easier to put together and matches would most likely finish faster.

Players will be able to feel like they have more impact on the outcome of a match and TTK could also reduce from this as well since people caught out in a bad spot would get focus fired by less mechs.

Obviously group sizes would most likely need to be tweaked down to probably groups of 2 but I believe a change like this would be more healthy for the playerbase.

What do you guys think?

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NO way! 12v12 should revert back to solo player que only and take out groups and place them in a 8v8 mm of their own. You're going to hear all kinds of BS on this topic from we don't have enough players to do it to no one wants this feature.

But let's cut to real reason PGI and Coordinated groups don't want a 8v8 mm of their own these team groups and the Cauldron players are just plain cowards when a group has to play another group in a competitive way, I have seen it so many times in the old 8v8 game mode and in faction play as well.

There is always a imbalance in game play until it results in a stomp by coordinated groups placing all the top players in one or more groups to dominate all the others you have seen it in Comp play/ Faction Play/ and now in the crappppy solo soup que.

So there is your real reason OP why PGI won't do it because groups are total cowards when there dominated and stomped by a better group. PGI would have to make a ladder system so these Super groups could not dominate all the other less skilled groups.

And I have played solo and, in many groups, and personally have seen this happen in gameplay and on discord as well listening to it all from the winning side and the losing side. This is a problem that has plagued MWO from the beginning of the game in all of its game modes and has resulted in the destruction of all of MWO game modes except the horrible game mode we now call SOLO soup que which because of groups it is dying now as well because of the same antics by these coordinated groups.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KingCobra, on 23 November 2023 - 05:33 PM, said:

But let's cut to real reason PGI and Coordinated groups don't want a 8v8 mm of their own these team groups and the Cauldron players are just plain cowards when a group has to play another group in a competitive way, I have seen it so many times in the old 8v8 game mode and in faction play as well.

If that were true, they'd also be against skill-based matchmaking like the CoD community was when it was introduced with Modern Warfare (the remake), also remember that the suggestions comes with potentially limiting groups to 2 in 8v8, so not sure your argument has a leg to stand-on, seems more like a straw man to me.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 November 2023 - 06:58 PM.

[Besh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 November 2023 - 06:57 PM, said:

If that were true, they'd also be against skill-based matchmaking like the CoD community was when it was introduced with Modern Warfare (the remake), also remember that the suggestions comes with potentially limiting groups to 2 in 8v8, so not sure your argument has a leg to stand-on, seems more like a straw man to me.

I read "skill based matchmaking" routinely when anything re MM/Groups in "SoloQ" etc. is discussed .
How does that Matchmaker work these days ?

Is it possible that, despite the thoughts people seem to have about skill and the MM in MW:O, its a common experience amongst a good portion of the playebase to get royally stomped by an OpFor having 2 organized Groups ?

Is the answer going to be "get good scrubs" ?, or will people denying the experience of others start to realize one day that THEIR experience of the Game does not resemeble what a good portion of people experience when playing ?

GroupQ got cancelled because *tadaa* not enough Groups queued up .

Its actually a bit similar to Solaris . For years, and years, and more years, untold thousands who thought they were hotshots clamoured for the introduction of Solaris to duel like Heros . And PGI made it . And then it went dead .

Edited by Besh, 24 November 2023 - 01:25 AM.

[pbiggz]

Besh, on 24 November 2023 - 01:23 AM, said:

I read "skill based matchmaking" routinely when anything re MM/Groups in "SoloQ" etc. is discussed .
How does that Matchmaker work these days ?

All things considered, it works quite well. I have seen no proof that T4s match with T1s frequently, only anecdotes, and those anecdotes are from people with, shall we say, a posting history.

Besh, on 24 November 2023 - 01:23 AM, said:

Is it possible that, despite the thoughts people seem to have about skill and the MM in MW:O, its a common experience amongst a good portion of the playebase to get royally stomped by an OpFor having 2 organized Groups ?

All knowledge we have of the matchmaker as it currently stands says this is not possible. If you queue as a group, and there is no other group in the pool to match with, you simply don't get a match. As far as I know the matchmaker wont stack two groups on one team.

Besh, on 24 November 2023 - 01:23 AM, said:

Is the answer going to be "get good scrubs" ?, or will people denying the experience of others start to realize one day that THEIR experience of the Game does not resemeble what a good portion of people experience when playing ?

Nobody here can remotely claim what "a good portion" of the player base is experiencing because most players do not post here, and do not interact with social media for this game.

Besh, on 24 November 2023 - 01:23 AM, said:

GroupQ got cancelled because *tadaa* not enough Groups queued up .

With a player base this small, having multiple buckets for players to be in is near suicidal; we need to make use of every player we have, and breaking up the base just reduces the quality of matches for everyone. Additionally, there were a number of complexities that made the group queue especially unviable, and they continue to make it unviable.

Besh, on 24 November 2023 - 01:23 AM, said:

Its actually a bit similar to Solaris . For years, and years, and more years, untold thousands who thought they were hotshots clamoured for the introduction of Solaris to duel like Heros . And PGI made it . And then it went dead .

This community has always had a problem with expectations. Some players expected a competitive shooter. Many expected a plodding multiplayer PVE action simulator. Some few damn near expected tabletop. Every one of those groups hated the other for daring to expect the game they liked/wanted, and that resentment has never really gone away.

[Weeny Machine]

pbiggz, on 22 November 2023 - 03:45 PM, said:

Your experience isn't bad because of premades, and agitating for their removal in an effort to curate your own competition is neither a reasonable thing to expect, nor will it lead to you winning more. You'll just move on to the next boogeyman.

We have done this song and dance before, it just led to shouting matches, and then PGI did what they had to do to keep the game alive anyway.

What a strawman agrument!

Why did FW die? There were enough pugs and they were farmed. The pugs were told "git gut" - and they left. Then over the time more and more groups suddenly realized: ooh, crap, we are the fodder now! And they disbanded as well. At one point there were not enough group anymore in the queue.

Take World of Warcraft when BGs were introduced. You read all across the board "We want to play with friends" or "We want a challenge". Then, shortly after the group queue was introduced, this queue was dead. What does this tell us? That most people like to roll over pugs - and that's it - for whatever reason. Oh and fun fact: all those arguments have been uttered here by premade players.

The best thing is to keep premades and pugers who just play for fun and less competetive apart.

If 8vs8 would be reserved for group vs group and puggers only carried over as fillers...what loss would premades have? The matches would still be going.
Ah sorry, nope, I see why you are upset...ok...

Edited by Weeny Machine, 24 November 2023 - 08:40 AM.

[pbiggz]

Weeny Machine, on 24 November 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

What a strawman agrument!

Why did FW die? There were enough pugs and they were farmed. The pugs were told "git gut" - and they left. Then over the time more and more groups suddenly realized: ooh, crap, we are the fodder now! And they disbanded as well. At one point there were not enough group anymore in the queue.

That's not even true. Its actually the opposite of true. FW died because the changes PGI pushed essentially ruined the game for large groups, which were the life blood of the game mode. All the incentives to be in a megacompany disappeared overnight.

I know you hate groups. Don't make things up.

Weeny Machine, on 24 November 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

Take World of Warcraft when BGs were introduced. You read all across the board "We want to play with friends" or "We want a challenge".

World of Warcraft and MWO have completely different player bases with completely different incentives and needs. You can't really compare them except in the broadest senses.

Weeny Machine, on 24 November 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

Then, shortly after the group queue was introduced, this queue was dead. What does this tell us? That most people like to roll over pugs - and that's it - for whatever reason. Oh and fun fact: all those arguments have been uttered here by premade players.

You have consistently demonstrated a disdain for players who play the game differently from you, and continue to insist on ascribing all negative aspects of the game to their "nefarious" acts. There is no cabal. People who play with their friends aren't doing so to stomp on pugs. If anything, the only people so determined to curate their opposition are the anti-group players, who clearly think they'll lose less if they don't have to worry about facing "those players".

Weeny Machine, on 24 November 2023 - 08:37 AM, said:

The best thing is to keep premades and pugers who just play for fun and less competetive apart.

You also consistently conflate competitive and group players. Most people just like playing with their friends. Having friends doesn't automatically shoot you into tier 1. Far from it.

You need to stop making things up.

[An6ryMan69]

I found the recent experiment with 8v8 to be awful.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 24 November 2023 - 01:23 AM, said:

Is it possible that, despite the thoughts people seem to have about skill and the MM in MW:O, its a common experience amongst a good portion of the playebase to get royally stomped by an OpFor having 2 organized Groups ?

I've seen groups that are awful too, anytime I see an HHoD group, it's farming time more than anything. Stomps happened even in solo queue back in the day. Stomps IMO aren't any worse/better than they have been.

That said, I do still dislike soup queue and would appreciate groups of 2 being the limit for 8v8 or 3 for 12v12.

[KingCobra]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 November 2023 - 09:35 AM, said:

I've seen groups that are awful too, anytime I see an HHoD group, it's farming time more than anything. Stomps happened even in solo queue back in the day. Stomps IMO aren't any worse/better than they have been.

That said, I do still dislike soup queue and would appreciate groups of 2 being the limit for 8v8 or 3 for 12v12.

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I will not agree with you on this answer back before (soup que= Solo/team together play) Coordinated teams did play in solo quick play by cheating the MM as in sync dropping into games and it was very imperfect and unstable booting many cheaters out of games or crashing the games .

So there was a very low count of these players and teams in Solo quick play but now we have soup que teams are allowed 4 team players x2 into matches but let's not forget the cheaters on teams still sync dropping in a additional player per 4x4 so i have seen 2 teams of 5v5 and 2 solo players VS random 12 pugs or I have even seen a teams of a 5v5 and a 6v6 VS a 4x4 and solo pug players.

So you can White Knight PGI all you want but what you're saying is totally untrue and it is killing off Solo quick play as more and more teams once again cheat to seal club solo players and casual players because their total cowards to play each other in a 8v8 team only setting they would rather stomp pugs and PGI has known this since they Ruined Faction play and all the other long-gone game modes.

And PGI knowing and having this data they still do not act in favor of their game and let these players and team players continue to destroy what's left of there main player base.

Edited by KingCobra, 27 November 2023 - 10:32 AM.

[Besh]

KingCobra, on 27 November 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

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I will not agree with you on this answer back before (soup que= Solo/team together play) Coordinated teams did play in solo quick play by cheating the MM as in sync dropping into games and it was very imperfect and unstable booting many cheaters out of games or crashing the games .

So there was a very low count of these players and teams in Solo quick play but now we have soup que teams are allowed 4 team players x2 into matches but let's not forget the cheaters on teams still sync dropping in a additional player per 4x4 so i have seen 2 teams of 5v5 and 2 solo players VS random 12 pugs or I have even seen a teams of a 5v5 and a 6v6 VS a 4x4 and solo pug players.

So you can White Knight PGI all you want but what you're saying is totally untrue and it is killing off Solo quick play as more and more teams once again cheat to seal club solo players and casual players because their total cowards to play each other in a 8v8 team only setting they would rather stomp pugs and PGI has known this since they Ruined Faction play and all the other long-gone game modes.

And PGI knowing and having this data they still do not act in favor of their game and let these players and team players continue to destroy what's left of there main player base.

^All of this .

You need to be aware, there are people making their opinions heard about MatchMaker who seriously think "2 groups on one side is just not possible for all we know about MM.", and are not shy to write exactly that on these here Forums, implicating anyone describing their experience of seeing exactly that in "Solo"QP and describing it here may be lieing . People may also write stuff along the Lines of "T5 does not match with T1" despite the group averaging leaving plenty of room for that .

Edited by Besh, 27 November 2023 - 11:32 AM.

[pbiggz]

KingCobra, on 27 November 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

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cheating the MM as in sync dropping

Sync dropping is a giant pain in the *** and indicative that the matchmaker is failing to provide an experience both to solo players AND people who just want to play the game with their friends. Your insistence on insinuating that these people are all cheaters does not reflect well on you nor does it lend any credibility to your arguments.

KingCobra, on 27 November 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

So you can White Knight PGI all you want but what you're saying is totally untrue and it is killing off Solo quick play as more and more teams once again cheat to seal club solo players and casual players because their total cowards to play each other in a 8v8 team only setting they would rather stomp pugs and PGI has known this since they Ruined Faction play and all the other long-gone game modes.

The source of this argument is... you? Do you have any solid data backing this up? I dont think you do. I have data. We've had stable numbers for 3 years. MWO is not a big game, but its not dying. We are not staring down the barrel. We are not going over a cliff. There is no group-caused doom killing off the game. The steam numbers (which are an undercount) have the game at roughly 1000 players a night, and its been that way since the queues got merged and the cauldron took over.

KingCobra, on 27 November 2023 - 10:23 AM, said:

And PGI knowing and having this data they still do not act in favor of their game and let these players and team players continue to destroy what's left of there main player base.

Perhaps PGI knows something you don't? The only people still working on the game are the ones that actually care about it so insinuating that they're just letting it rot is kind of insulting. This is not me trying to white knight; I am plenty skeptical. I was here for *60 to 90 days ™*. You have to save your energy for actual issues instead of spending your time trying to get people soft banned because you think it'll make you win more.

An example of a real issue would perhaps be the current state of HAGs. I genuinely don't agree with the direction the cauldron has taken them in. I think they were in the best place at launch when they were a powerful midrange weapon and all indications are the cauldron doesn't seem willing to entertain having them occupy that niche. Spend your time trying to talk to them about THAT instead of trying to get rid of people who have friends.

Besh, on 27 November 2023 - 11:31 AM, said:

^All of this .

You need to be aware, there are people making their opinions heard about MatchMaker who seriously think "2 groups on one side is just not possible for all we know about MM.", and are not shy to write exactly that on these here Forums, implicating anyone describing their experience of seeing exactly that in "Solo"QP and describing it here may be lieing . People may also write stuff along the Lines of "T5 does not match with T1" despite the group averaging leaving plenty of room for that .

Prove it.

[Besh]

pbiggz, on 27 November 2023 - 03:40 PM, said:

[...]


Prove it.

Prove what ? That you are making bold statements about what you think MM is doing, consequently implicating anything anyone says that is different to what you think is a lie, while in reality you obviously do not know what MM does on a daily Basis ?

Nah . I am not here to "win an argument" against someone who thinks I am making stuff up .

Just because you think I may have a desire to lie, or be stupid about MM, will not compell me to do anything . I know you are waiting to be able to come around "see, I am right, you can't prove it" adding "the one who makes a claim has to prove it" ( to which I will answer "Logic is not as simple as you think my friend " ) .

I am not making any claim . I am describing my observations . There is nothing to prove .

Edited by Besh, 27 November 2023 - 09:08 PM.

[foamyesque]

pbiggz, on 24 November 2023 - 06:56 AM, said:

All things considered, it works quite well. I have seen no proof that T4s match with T1s frequently, only anecdotes, and those anecdotes are from people with, shall we say, a posting history.

Tier 4s, no (unless I was grouped with a higher tier player), but when I got into Tier 3 it began occurring with regularity. Not commonly, but I would see people like GeeRam or Sean, for example, from time to time. Couldn't really put a number on it, since there's obviously people in T1 that aren't as recognisable. So I can't say how frequently (or not) it happens, but I can say it does happen.

Once you get to T2 it is very common to be matched with T1 people, there just aren't enough people for the MM to do otherwise and still pop matches in reasonable times. This probably contributes a bunch to the best players in the game wondering WTF the rest of their team is even doing.

Edited by foamyesque, 28 November 2023 - 02:01 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

It's not possible to sync drop 2 4man groups and land on the same side, just saying. The maximum for players in a group per side is 5 (which means 4,3-2 and 2-2 groups are possible). Not sure if this was even lowerde to 4, though.

[Besh]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 28 November 2023 - 02:05 AM, said:

It's not possible to sync drop 2 4man groups and land on the same side, just saying. The maximum for players in a group per side is 5 (which means 4,3-2 and 2-2 groups are possible). Not sure if this was even lowerde to 4, though.

A 3men and a 2men working together can be considered as "2 organized Groups", right ?

[Aidan Crenshaw]

sure. I was merely pointing out that the maximum of pre-organized players per side is 5 (maybe 4), not 10 or more, as was suggested earlier here. There were incidents around the time when the Event Queue was introduced when the group limitations were not working properly, but since then stories like those posted by KingKobra earlier belong into the range of myths and fables.

[Besh]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 28 November 2023 - 03:31 AM, said:

sure. I was merely pointing out that the maximum of pre-organized players per side is 5 (maybe 4), not 10 or more, as was suggested earlier here. There were incidents around the time when the Event Queue was introduced when the group limitations were not working properly, but since then stories like those posted by KingKobra earlier belong into the range of myths and fables.

Interesting . I guess it depends on what you categorize as "preorganized", as syncdropping Solos with a 4men for instance is possible .

Edited by Besh, 28 November 2023 - 04:41 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Besh, on 28 November 2023 - 03:50 AM, said:

Interesting . I guess it depends on what you categorize as "preorganized", as syncdropping Solos with a 4men for instance is possible .

sure is, but for one, the syncdroppers have no way to influence in what match they land or on what side, and two there is not really a way to make syncdropping impossible.

[feeWAIVER]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 28 November 2023 - 05:30 AM, said:

sure is, but for one, the syncdroppers have no way to influence in what match they land or on what side, and two there is not really a way to make syncdropping impossible.

Unless they have a friend on the inside. o.O