29 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Hagen Zwosta, on 20 November 2023 - 09:18 AM, said:

How is there always one team that forms a ball and sits in a hole. I mean the WHOLE team. While the other team has only aggressive players.
One team always has the ones who run away at the sight of an enemy, the other team is eager to engage any red.
At least that is how it looks. I can say right from the start who will win.
Not the ones that form a blob and sit in Timbuktu.
Literally right after I wrote this the next one happened. All our mechs were only sitting and waiting.

"The best medicine on any battlefield is fire superiority."

This tends to happen when a team loses momentum; if the team gets out of position (that central valley that check engine was talking about, for example,) they can end up so badly out of position that they can't move forward without taking an unsustainable amount of enemy fire. When that happens, a lot of teams will stall out and try to fight in place; sometimes, that's all they can do, once they've screwed up that badly, or they may just not have anyone to suggest an alternative, and just kind of... dither.

This is a tactical situation called suppression. The enemy can put so much fire on your team that they can't shoot back without taking more fire than they're dishing out, leaving them unable to fight back. When that happens, nobody wants to poke their head out, but they know that just running off on their own makes them even more vulnerable. So they sit, and fight, and die, in their hole. They need to pick a likely course of action and push that option hard, whatever it may be - but it isn't always obvious how to do that.

[Tarl Cabot]

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 06:31 AM, said:

Well, you don't know, I don't know . How does MM work ? Can a group of 3xt1 1xt5 end up fighting mostly t5, 4, 3 teams ?
I can tell you with absolute certainty that I see t1s, in Groups, wrecking t5s routinely .

As for the MM works, the last time anything was said about how teams were build was based on the seeded player, the player who was picked first. With the combined Quickplay Queue, that would be the first person or first group now. And when the soup queue was formed, we asked but never received a response, afaik, of how the groups work in the MM. Would they take the Top Tier player or would it take the average of the PSR to determine the average Tier? Knowing PGI, they kept the average of the group like it was they used Elo instead of PSR/Tiers. There is supposed to be a 3 tier max range and each tier is 1000 PSR points.

Group average
Tier 5 675 (30 games played - slow movement with all by 5 games in group)
Tier 4 1750 (15 games played - combination solo/group)
Tier 2 3100 (500 games played - have average out, primarily drop solo)
Tier 1 5000 (max out - both group and solo)
--------------
10425 PSR pts / 4 = 2606 PSR pts or Tier 3 average. And as posted earlier whether it is a bunch of solos and/or a group, if they all actually work together, that becomes a force multiplier. Even before the merge, it happened regularly enough but then everyone and their kitchen sink could move up to Tier 1 before the merge and reset.

Then some info when the queues were combined back in 2020.

https://mwomercs.com...overies-week-1/

Paul Inouye, on 04 May 2020 - 12:52 PM, said:

Hey MechWarriors,

As I mentioned last week, I'd be playing with a few of the match making numbers on the live servers throughout the weekend and I'd share info that was discovered in doing so.

snip

In the image above, I tried to find a happy medium where time to get a match, Tier/PSR matching and Weight Class matching all had their place. The combination of Tier and Weight matching is additive so no matter what the settings are set to, the global wait time is going to increase. It now comes down to how much time is acceptable to get the Tier balancing and Weight balancing having a positive impact.

The current values are giving us the following:

Average wait time in QP Queue: ~1 min 30 seconds (up from ~48 seconds)
Average Tier separation between teams: ~300 (tightened from ~1800)
Average Weight Class difference: +/- 1 or 2 in a given weight class (5 heavies, 3 assaults for example) (tightened from 12)

There are times where the Match Maker runs out of players. When this happens and the queue is waiting to fill beyond release valve timers, there will be the odd circumstance where all valves are open and you will see a full open Tier/Weight Class match formed. While this is fairly rare, it is possible.

For the time being, we're going to leave the numbers where they are and continue to monitor what's going on.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 November 2023 - 07:04 PM.

[Besh]

martian, on 20 November 2023 - 11:20 AM, said:

The best way of being useful for your team is to kill or damage enemy 'Mechs.

Holding the corner against attacking enemy 'Mechs should give you a good opportunity to dish out some damage and maybe some kill(s), thus earning you good PSR and the green arrow.

Standing idle behind a corner, waiting and doing nothing gives you the red arrow. Perhaps you should find some other spot from where you can actually engage enemy 'Mechs.

Sounds good. In such case you should be dishing out a lot of fire and getting kills, assists and damage, thus having no problem with "with low dmg numbers and PSR going down." One pot shot every five minutes is not enough.

First, I'd like to ask you where you get the arrogance from to think you need to school me on "the best way to be helpfull for your Team" ? Your elaboration on that point shows a really narrow perspective though . I am not going to try to get into dialogue with you about this , since I get a feeling you won't understand .

Go back to reading the post you initially replied to . Read it again .

Which part of

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 04:23 AM, said:

[...]resulting in abysmally bad matches where people simply "farm damage" to whatever end ( mostly not caring what happens to their Team ) and still end up not going down in tier much, while others play to support their team with positioning, support fire etc. end up getting farmed with low dmg numbers and PSR going down .

did you not understand ?

If I hold a corner, and hold it against 2 Mechs, then 3, then 4, then OpFor pushes around that corner and wrecks me, I am NOT going to get nice dmg and good kills when majority of my Team ignores me telling them "I am holding this corner alone against 2 Mechs" "now 3" "now4" "they are now pushing that corner" and gleefully goes around "farming damage"...while I am the one shooting first at 2, then 3, then 4 different Mechs, eating more damage to more components than what I dish out.

If I am moving into, or engaging in a standoff fight with the position and firepower to help in taking out enemy 'Mechs quicker due to focused dmg into already damaged components, and suddenly literally everyone on my Side buggers off quickly to a different Area of the Map to "farm damage" because a single Assault was spotted there, I am NOT going to get nice damage and kills, I will end up a smoking pile of scrapmetal in no time since the guys on the other side quickly realize "Oh, that guy is alone now" .

Lastly, if what I describe ends up in my Team loosing, even if I managed to get nice damage and kills ( I avg. around 150-200 dmg I do per kill I get ), its not unusual at all to have 600dmg, 2, 3 kills and still get a red arrow down because 2,3 superstars "farmed" their way to 900+ damage 0kills many assists while caring effall that their team was decimated around them, therefore easily outscoring my matchscore .

I am describing what I experience, what happens in Games I play . How players only caring about their matchscore, caring effall about what happens to their team, often are a detriment to the success of Team oriented players . And its being met with a kindof "It HAS to be YOU!" attitude . Your answer assumes I am writing from a point of "I am uselessly sitting behind a corner doing nothing"...which is a faulty assumption on your part .

In MW:O ( QP that is ), there are people who make it an ART to "do good" ( = get high Matchscore ) at the expense of their Team . And they get rewarded, even if their behaviour directly leads to their Team loosing .

Edited by Besh, 20 November 2023 - 11:31 PM.

[martian]

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

First, I'd like to ask you where you get the arrogance from to think you need to school me on "the best way to be helpfull for your Team" ? Your elaboration on that point shows a really narrow perspective though . I am not going to try to get into dialogue with you about this , since I get a feeling you won't understand .

Go back to reading the post you initially replied to . Read it again .

Which part of did you not understand ?

The faster you kill enemy 'Mech, the higher the probability of your team actually winning the game. All that talk about "support their team with positioning, support fire, etc." must result in destroyed enemy 'Mechs (or seriously damaged enemy 'Mechs, so some other friendly player has easier job finishing them off).

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

If I hold a corner, and hold it against 2 Mechs, then 3, then 4, then OpFor pushes around that corner and wrecks me, I am NOT going to get nice dmg and good kills when majority of my Team ignores me telling them "I am holding this corner alone against 2 Mechs" "now 3" "now4" "they are now pushing that corner" and gleefully goes around "farming damage"...while I am the one shooting first at 2, then 3, then 4 different Mechs, eating more damage to more components than what I dish out.

Eating a ton of damage and getting killed, while dishing out a low amount of damage in return ... That does not sound as example of good positioning to me.

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

If I am moving into, or engaging in a standoff fight with the position and firepower to help in taking out enemy 'Mechs quicker due to focused dmg into already damaged components, and suddenly literally everyone on my Side buggers off quickly to a different Area of the Map to "farm damage" because a single Assault was spotted there, I am NOT going to get nice damage and kills, I will end up a smoking pile of scrapmetal in no time since the guys on the other side quickly realize "Oh, that guy is alone now" .

Who is to blame that you did not check your team's movement and stood there, while your team has moved on? It is your job to monitor your team's disposition and adjust your tactics accordingly.

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

Lastly, if what I describe ends up in my Team loosing, even if I managed to get nice damage and kills ( I avg. around 150-200 dmg I do per kill I get ), its not unusual at all to have 600dmg, 2, 3 kills and still get a red arrow down because 2,3 superstars "farmed" their way to 900+ damage 0kills many assists while caring effall that their team was decimated around them, therefore easily outscoring my matchscore .

I can see no problem here: Those "superstars", who are regularly doing "900+ damage and outscoring my matchscore", will move quickly to higher Tiers. So you will not meet them in your games for much longer.

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

I am describing what I experience, what happens in Games I play . How players only caring about their matchscore, caring effall about what happens to their team, often are a detriment to the success of Team oriented players . And its being met with a kindof "It HAS to be YOU!" attitude . Your answer assumes I am writing from a point of "I am uselessly sitting behind a corner doing nothing"...which is a faulty assumption on your part .

I think that players, who are doing a lot of a damage and getting kills (especially if we are talking about the players in the 900+ damage range), are usually more useful for the team than the players with less damage.

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

In MW:O ( QP that is ), there are people who make it an ART to "do good" ( = get high Matchscore ) at the expense of their Team . And they get rewarded, even if their behaviour directly leads to their Team loosing .

Play as you see fit and let PSR do its job.

Eventually, PSR will move you to the appropriate Tier that contains the players of your skill level and who sport the same approach to the game as you do.

[Tarl Cabot]

Besh, on 20 November 2023 - 10:18 PM, said:

snip

Lastly, if what I describe ends up in my Team loosing, even if I managed to get nice damage and kills ( I avg. around 150-200 dmg I do per kill I get ), its not unusual at all to have 600dmg, 2, 3 kills and still get a red arrow down because 2,3 superstars "farmed" their way to 900+ damage 0kills many assists while caring effall that their team was decimated around them, therefore easily outscoring my matchscore .

snip

In MW:O ( QP that is ), there are people who make it an ART to "do good" ( = get high Matchscore ) at the expense of their Team . And they get rewarded, even if their behaviour directly leads to their Team loosing .

You getting a DOWN arrow is not just dependent on the high MS scorers (damage from MS convert 46%, ie 100dmg = 46 MS) but also those under you since you are being rated against the other 23 players. And damage is not the only component that determines that final MS. And that down arrow could have become an equal sign if a few on both the winning and losing team had done worst than they had, both those with a higher match score AND a lower match score.. And that DOWN arrow could have dropped your PSR rating simply by 1 point. Hit that Print Screen at the end of the match showing the team scoreboard. One a thread last year? a player complained about receiving that DOWN arrow after finishing a game w/353 MS? (it was somewhere along that line). Once the numbers were crunch he had lost one PSR point. If one of his own team mates with a lower MS than him had actually done worst by 100 MS, he would have received an EQUAL sign.

https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/

J Zay Spreadsheet - Enter the number for each time. Order doesnt matter since the final calculation is sorted by MS. The final column would be the PSR points generated. This is a screenshot of that formula, and I set it up to show what it would look like if both sides had the same matchscores. As ya can see, the only matching players were both had a PSR increase had a 400 MS+. And player on the losing side w/350 MS? That player only went down 1 PSR pt.

https://docs.google....#gid=1739121335

[Besh]

Tarl Cabot, on 21 November 2023 - 08:08 AM, said:

You getting a DOWN arrow is not just dependent on the high MS scorers (damage from MS convert 46%, ie 100dmg = 46 MS) but also those under you since you are being rated against the other 23 players. And damage is not the only component that determines that final MS. And that down arrow could have become an equal sign if a few on both the winning and losing team had done worst than they had, both those with a higher match score AND a lower match score.. And that DOWN arrow could have dropped your PSR rating simply by 1 point. Hit that Print Screen at the end of the match showing the team scoreboard. One a thread last year? a player complained about receiving that DOWN arrow after finishing a game w/353 MS? (it was somewhere along that line). Once the numbers were crunch he had lost one PSR point. If one of his own team mates with a lower MS than him had actually done worst by 100 MS, he would have received an EQUAL sign.

https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/

J Zay Spreadsheet - Enter the number for each time. Order doesnt matter since the final calculation is sorted by MS. The final column would be the PSR points generated. This is a screenshot of that formula, and I set it up to show what it would look like if both sides had the same matchscores. As ya can see, the only matching players were both had a PSR increase had a 400 MS+. And player on the losing side w/350 MS? That player only went down 1 PSR pt.

https://docs.google....#gid=1739121335

Wow awesome, I had no clue something like this even existed . Also was not aware individual Players are rated across both teams, thanks . Time to clear up misconceptions on my side, and look at things re PSR differently .

When I get another Match as I posted above, I will post screenshots .

[Tarl Cabot]

Besh, on 21 November 2023 - 12:31 PM, said:

Wow awesome, I had no clue something like this even existed . Also was not aware individual Players are rated across both teams, thanks . Time to clear up misconceptions on my side, and look at things re PSR differently .

When I get another Match as I posted above, I will post screenshots .

Welcome, and yeap players are rated against the other 23 players with the winning team having that slight modifier. I have added a youtube video created by another to help explain the current PSR settings. And both the original and PGI initial set to change the PSR setup have simply change the static PSR levels.



And the link to that thread and well as a small copy/paste from that thread. Not sure how active you were in 2020 but PGI initial brilliant idea with the reset was to have EVERYONE reset to Tier 3, as well as have NEW players start in Tier 3 /shakes head. Russ and Paul really aren't PVP players. Everyone and their dog/cat would have seen the issue with that setup. Mind you, no other PSR changes were made other than the reset after the Solo/Group Queue merge a few months earlier.

Their zero sum approach though was with the static PSR levels themselves. PGI did not want to deviate too from the current PSR/Tiers setup to be used for the MM, even though a few tried. It is what it is but is better than the original Tier/PSR. For the late comers, the initial MM with a scoring system was based on Elo setup.

https://mwomercs.com...anges-jun-2020/

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2020 - 12:09 PM, said:

Well it seems that the overwhelming majority is fine with a Tier/PSR reset. And with that reset, we will make all future calculations zero sum in order to have PSR more accurately reflect player skill rather than experience playing the game.

snip

To change this, we will be implementing the following:

Current PSR values:

Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -2
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 251-400 does not move.
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +1

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.
Match Score: 101-250 goes up in PSR by +1
Match Score: 251-400 goes up in PSR by +3
Match Score: 401+ goes up in PSR by +5

With these new numbers in place, players performing well and winning will be able to climb out of mid tiers to higher tiers and players losing and not performing well will be dropping lower as they should.

The new numbers make team work critical if players want to climb in tiers. As you can see, the win is the biggest component of moving up or down in PSR. To win, you have to be a team player.

[color=orange]What does this mean for the Match Maker?[/color]

The Match Maker will still retain it's current settings and release valves. We cannot restrict only Tier 1 can play against Tier 1 with our current population. Doing so would result in match wait times close to an hour.

Changing the release valve numbers to be very strict during a quick test proved this, as wait times for Tier 1 AND Tier 5 climbed exponentially with each tier step removed from possible matches. Tier 1 will still have to play matches with Tier 3 no matter what PSR system is in place.

As the bell curve is reformed after the PSR reset (people shift into their respective tiers), matches should feel tighter and more competitive but it's not a magic bullet for equal skill gameplay. We are making these changes to build the best matches with the tools and numbers we have.

We will continue to monitor the stomp rate, game win/loss scenarios and tier matching to make sure the new PSR system is working as intended.


[color=orange]Target Eta: June 9th, 2020[/color]

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 November 2023 - 01:18 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

And here is a game I had today. My alt had a 145 MS but I still went up 2 PSR points, primarily due to the MS range. Until I loaded up the numbers I thought something had broken with the patch !! So, essentially the winning team and 2 on the losing side had the UP arrow, so a total of 14 players received the UP arrow. New map and the team spread out while the other side has about half that circled around the outside the other half half essentially sandwiched us in. And that map is LRM friendly!!

The player with the 136 MS received the EQUAL sign. The points appears to round to the nearest integer, based when I ran the numbers through and the numbers fell between +1 and -1. or the few times I ran the numbers through from a thread w/screenshot and they said they had received a down arrow. The formula showed them receiving a -0.6 and -0.8.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 November 2023 - 05:00 PM.

[Mechsniper]

The PSR system used as I understand it totally screws solo drop players. I get to the cusp of 1 and get screwed by strings of the worst teams for 20-100 games until my progress bar drops about an inch or so, and then I get a mix of normal teams until it gets near again. PSR needs absolutely to be pulled out completely. At this point I would much prefer completely random drops. Dropping in a 4 man is somewhat of a shield against this and your stats are much better if you drop in a 4 man constantly due to this.

Edited by Mechsniper, 22 November 2023 - 02:42 PM.

[Void Angel]

The matchmaker isn't using your nearness to PSR to curate your matches. Ditching PSR is going to make learning the ropes very hard for newer players, and you'll still have those same strings of wins and losses.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 November 2023 - 04:33 PM.