122 replies to this topic

[DAEDALOS513]

Void Angel, on 26 November 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

Riiight. Because balance is in such a sorry state today compared to on-release Clantech...

Because only your opinion is valid..

[Void Angel]

JOATMON Incorporated, on 26 November 2023 - 01:43 AM, said:

I'm still not sure if I'm quite sold on this, but as long as they are just messing with the heat cap, and not the cooling rate, the sledgehammer damage shouldn't be catastrophic.

On a related note, if the problem is supposedly boating too many different kinds of weapons, why haven't they just played with the ghost heat? Put Gauss, PPC, HAG, LG Las, AC10, AC20, and all the other apparent major high impact offenders into the same ghost heat family. Cap it at however many of those they want shot at once and then adjust that heat penalty as needed. If it isn't working, the penalty isn't high enough. This approach should have similar desired impact but will have less side impact on other chassis types that aren't being used as alpha strikers.

I'd imagine that it's because adjusting the Heat Scale limits is likely to result in more complexity, and the game is already hard enough for those of us without a background in BT or Mechwarrior. You could end up needing to add multiple weapon types to the same Heat Scale category because of certain builds, and that cross-linking could quickly spiral out of control.

Take This Monstrosity, or This One. In order to prevent those alphas with Heat Scale limits, you'd have to add those weapons to each other's HSL categories. Is it do-able? Sure... Without screwing up other lower-alpha weapons? Maybe. But then you'll have to add in LB-X, or MRMs, or something else, and eventually you'll get to the point where all of your major guns are on the same Heat Scale categories - but possibley not to the same degree, kind of like how ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles share a category even though you can only ever fire two Gauss at once. Imagine the whole system being like that.

I dunno if this is their reasoning - nobody consulted me on anything, after all - but the chain of logic makes sense.

DAEDALOS513, on 26 November 2023 - 02:01 PM, said:

Because only your opinion is valid..

I'm sorry, did you have any quantifiable reason for thinking I'm wrong, or are you still smarting from the last argument you lost and just being unconstructive?

Please, argue that on-release Clans were balanced. I want to see it.

[DAEDALOS513]

Void Angel, on 26 November 2023 - 01:54 PM, said:

Riiight. Because balance is in such a sorry state today compared to on-release Clantech...

Quantifiable like this attack.. I mean, statement?

[Void Angel]

Pointing out the ridiculousness of a statement isn't "attacking" them, but have you ever noticed how people who are misbehaving will accuse you of doing what they just did?

This:

Quote

Because only your opinion is valid..

... is an attack. Be constructive, or go away again.

[DAEDALOS513]

Void Angel, on 26 November 2023 - 02:48 PM, said:

Pointing out the ridiculousness of a statement isn't "attacking" them, but have you ever noticed how people who are misbehaving will accuse you of doing what they just did?

This:

... is an attack. Be constructive, or go away again.

So just to recap: only your opinion is valid, and only you can make statements without offering quantifiable evidence because only you can deem other opinions as being ridiculous enough so that quantifiable evidence isn't necessary.

[Void Angel]

Void Angel, on 26 November 2023 - 02:48 PM, said:

Pointing out the ridiculousness of a statement isn't "attacking" them, but have you ever noticed how people who are misbehaving will accuse you of doing what they just did?

I'm not obliged to defend myself from a straw man, but come on. There are other people on this thread - embarrass yourself on your own time.

[JOATMON Incorporated]

Void Angel, on 26 November 2023 - 02:07 PM, said:

I'd imagine that it's because adjusting the Heat Scale limits is likely to result in more complexity, and the game is already hard enough for those of us without a background in BT or Mechwarrior. You could end up needing to add multiple weapon types to the same Heat Scale category because of certain builds, and that cross-linking could quickly spiral out of control.

Take This Monstrosity, or This One. In order to prevent those alphas with Heat Scale limits, you'd have to add those weapons to each other's HSL categories. Is it do-able? Sure... Without screwing up other lower-alpha weapons? Maybe. But then you'll have to add in LB-X, or MRMs, or something else, and eventually you'll get to the point where all of your major guns are on the same Heat Scale categories - but possibley not to the same degree, kind of like how ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles share a category even though you can only ever fire two Gauss at once. Imagine the whole system being like that.

I dunno if this is their reasoning - nobody consulted me on anything, after all - but the chain of logic makes sense.

Yes the spiral is exactly the point! If you don't spiral, alpha strikes will just remove A and add B. Later remove B and add C to get around the system and loophole in another alternative DPS system. If A, B, C, D, E... through Z are already in the same heat family like PPCs and Gauss already are, then there isn't a whack a mole game going on. Add all the major concentrated high DPS weapons to the ghost heat group to it at once and be done with it.

The proposed change isn't going to just hinder alpha strike monsters it will have collateral damage on lots of other clan builds as well. Pretty much any clan mech that uses DHS installs is going to be impacted.

My favorite clan mech is a Kitfox. I use 4 Er Meds, ECM, 1x Laser AMS, 2x AMS and machine guns. It will be impacted by a proposed DHS change. It would NOT be impacted by a ghost heat family change.

One of my friends uses a clan LRM boat, the natural predator of the alpha strike mechs. She uses ripple fire all the time. It will be impacted by the DHS change. It would not be impacted by ghost heat upgrades.

I support the idea of addressing problems in the games ecosystem and gameplay. I just think that problems should be addressed in a meaningful way that doesn't mess up everything else in the process.

Also if the clan DHS changes hit, do you really think the Alpha strikes just wont move over to the IS mechs?

Edited by JOATMON Incorporated, 27 November 2023 - 09:59 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

If the problem is massive alpha's and short time to kill on the big heavy hitters then hammering everyone using clan DHS is a bad way to do deal with it.

As much as I dislike ghost heat, that may be the way to go.

Or you could go with novel ideas like damage penalties (think golf hadicaps) for builds with massive alphas - say any alpha over 50 starts to suffer an increasing damage penalty, so the bigger your alpha the more scaled down you actual damage is. Or you could have scaling cooldown penalties done the same way on high alpha mechs. Or you could add heat nerfs to specific mechs, as distasteful as I find that.

While we are talking about heat - can we finally stop my machinegun armed flea or piranha from having to carry around extra useless heat sinks besides those in the engine? I mean seriously now it's just idiotic and it would help lights get more play time if they weren't hampered like that...

Edited by An6ryMan69, 27 November 2023 - 12:33 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

An6ryMan69, on 27 November 2023 - 12:33 PM, said:

If the problem is massive alpha's and short time to kill on the big heavy hitters then hammering everyone using clan DHS is a bad way to do deal with it.

As much as I dislike ghost heat, that may be the way to go.

Or you could go with novel ideas like damage penalties (think golf hadicaps) for builds with massive alphas - say any alpha over 50 starts to suffer an increasing damage penalty, so the bigger your alpha the more scaled down you actual damage is. Or you could have scaling cooldown penalties done the same way on high alpha mechs. Or you could add heat nerfs to specific mechs, as distasteful as I find that.

While we are talking about heat - can we finally stop my machinegun armed flea or piranha from having to carry around extra useless heat sinks besides those in the engine? I mean seriously now it's just idiotic and it would help lights get more play time if they weren't hampered like that...

They won't apply any nerfs that will actually impact game-play.. the outcry from the 'good' players would be too deafening. This is evidenced from the steady and increasing trend towards higher and higher alpha's, and stronger snipe weapons. Sure they may buff brawl weapons too, but these buffs are more than negated against the other buffs bec before you can even use these short range weapons, you have a lot of terrain to cover. Good luck.

[Void Angel]

JOATMON Incorporated, on 27 November 2023 - 09:57 AM, said:

Also if the clan DHS changes hit, do you really think the Alpha strikes just wont move over to the IS mechs?

With what heat sinks? The Inner Sphere doesn't have a tool like Clan DHS - or rather, it has the exact same thing, but 33.3% worse. That's the outlier that's driving a good part of these builds; along with superior range, and space - neither of which are possible nerf points. You could make an argument for reducing range, but... while BT isn't a straightjacket for balance, it is a necessary source for flavor, and removing the Clans' range advantage would be detrimental.
What you're proposing, literally putting all high-alpha (I assume you misspoke, since we're talking about the Big Alpha Smash meta) weapons into the same heat scale group has some pretty negative consequences. First, it won't help gig alphas per se; it'll just reduce the range, as people switch to mid-range guns which you will then also have to add in. The second thing is, you'll have to figure out how to balance a grouping of different weapons with different HSLs, some of which are already balanced by heat in different ways. Grouping Gauss Rifles and ERPPs is manageable, because it's a single, known interaction - but now you'd have to manage Gauss, and ERPPCs, and ERLLs, and cAC/10s, and LPLs, and whatever else we throw in. These weapons have dramatically different DPH in many cases, which makes balancing them together properly a chore. It's also going to be really hard for players in the MechLab to figure out which combination of what guns is and is not going to penalize them, and a lot of people just won't put up with that.

Plus, that HAS meta perpetuates itself down the line of weight classes. A lot of Clan Lights use the same laservomit builds as their higher-tonnage friends, just scaled down. TTB just did a video on the Wolfhound C; he's a really good pilot, but my point isn't his performance. It's how he built it. I still can't link it from MechDB, but even if you use a copy of the Grinner MPL build, the Clan version has higher cooling, range, and dps - along with a higher heat cap than the Grinner (I use these two because they are a rare direct substitute; the WLF-C is an IS Wolfhound rebuilt with Clantech.)

So I totally get that we could do this through the Heat Scale system, but I can see some serious potential pitfalls. On the other hand, nerfing DHS capacity will affect lighter 'mechs, but to a lesser degree - the nerf's severity literally scales down with tonnage, because a 20-ton Clan 'mech isn't using a lot of heat sinks anyway. A 75-ton Laservomit Timber Wolf will be hit much more severely than a 35-ton Clan 'mech, and only somewhat more than an 85-ton Marauder IIC. It's not going to be a huge nerf for most 'mechs that aren't boating high-heat, high-alpha weapons.

PS: LRMs are not a counter to alpha strike builds - quite the opposite, actually! Those builds generally sit next to cover and hammer people from range (another reason most of them are Clantech.) An LRM boat will force them back into cover if they're spotted (many of them use ECM,) but by the time those LRMs come in, most of their firepower is going to hit a building or wall: so it's, "poke, hide, cool, repeat" - which is the alpha build strategy already.

[JOATMON Incorporated]

Void Angel, on 27 November 2023 - 01:20 PM, said:

With what heat sinks? The Inner Sphere doesn't have a tool like Clan DHS - or rather, it has the exact same thing, but 33.3% worse. That's the outlier that's driving a good part of these builds; along with superior range, and space - neither of which are possible nerf points. You could make an argument for reducing range, but... while BT isn't a straightjacket for balance, it is a necessary source for flavor, and removing the Clans' range advantage would be detrimental.
What you're proposing, literally putting all high-alpha (I assume you misspoke, since we're talking about the Big Alpha Smash meta) weapons into the same heat scale group has some pretty negative consequences. First, it won't help gig alphas per se; it'll just reduce the range, as people switch to mid-range guns which you will then also have to add in. The second thing is, you'll have to figure out how to balance a grouping of different weapons with different HSLs, some of which are already balanced by heat in different ways. Grouping Gauss Rifles and ERPPs is manageable, because it's a single, known interaction - but now you'd have to manage Gauss, and ERPPCs, and ERLLs, and cAC/10s, and LPLs, and whatever else we throw in. These weapons have dramatically different DPH in many cases, which makes balancing them together properly a chore. It's also going to be really hard for players in the MechLab to figure out which combination of what guns is and is not going to penalize them, and a lot of people just won't put up with that.

Plus, that HAS meta perpetuates itself down the line of weight classes. A lot of Clan Lights use the same laservomit builds as their higher-tonnage friends, just scaled down. TTB just did a video on the Wolfhound C; he's a really good pilot, but my point isn't his performance. It's how he built it. I still can't link it from MechDB, but even if you use a copy of the Grinner MPL build, the Clan version has higher cooling, range, and dps - along with a higher heat cap than the Grinner (I use these two because they are a rare direct substitute; the WLF-C is an IS Wolfhound rebuilt with Clantech.)

So I totally get that we could do this through the Heat Scale system, but I can see some serious potential pitfalls. On the other hand, nerfing DHS capacity will affect lighter 'mechs, but to a lesser degree - the nerf's severity literally scales down with tonnage, because a 20-ton Clan 'mech isn't using a lot of heat sinks anyway. A 75-ton Laservomit Timber Wolf will be hit much more severely than a 35-ton Clan 'mech, and only somewhat more than an 85-ton Marauder IIC. It's not going to be a huge nerf for most 'mechs that aren't boating high-heat, high-alpha weapons.

PS: LRMs are not a counter to alpha strike builds - quite the opposite, actually! Those builds generally sit next to cover and hammer people from range (another reason most of them are Clantech.) An LRM boat will force them back into cover if they're spotted (many of them use ECM,) but by the time those LRMs come in, most of their firepower is going to hit a building or wall: so it's, "poke, hide, cool, repeat" - which is the alpha build strategy already.

Ok just to be clear, you indicated that all my proposal would do is reduce the engagement range of the alpha strike mechs so it wouldn't be any good.

But then you also indicated that LRM's won't impact them because the preferred tactic of the alpha strike mechs is to sit behind cover at longer ranges and pop out and shoot.

From what you have said, It sounds like putting in ghost heat would have a sizable impact on the preferred deployment of the alpha strikers. Forcing them to user medium range weapons forces the alpha strikers to get closer. This improves exposer time and gives opponents with other weapon loadouts more time to whittle them down. It would also push their ideal combat ranges closer towards the brawler range.


You may have a valid point about the weapons heat being potentially confusing to players in the mechlab.

Then again, just having the universal system would be far easier to understand than the current system for folks.
Currently there are multiple ghost heat systems in play. Ok I have 2 PPCs, or a PPC and a Gauss, or 2 gauss and 2 LL of some type, before I get heat penalties. Missiles are their own HSL. Then add ACs HSLs into the mix. None of these warn you in advance until you put them on the mech and you get the heat penalty warning.

If PGI could flag weapons over threshold as a main weapon, it would help all of the above. Ok, I can X number of all of these combined before heat penalties kick in. Either way, a transition period would indeed likely cause some initial confusion for irregular users of the mechlab.


Despite what you said, I still view LRMs as a natural predator in this case. If the Alphastriker are behind full cover then yes, LRMs can not hit them. But then neither can PPCs, Lasers, ACs or anything else but arty.
However LRMs when coordinated can at least hit Alphas without being hit back from within the alphastriker's longer strike range.
Don't get me wrong, a proper brawler can do a good number on an alphastriker as well, but its going to lose some armor in the process.

[Void Angel]

No, I told you that grouping all the big guns together would force people to start mixing in midrange guns, which you would then have to add in as well - and that it still wouldn't stop the giga-alpha builds. 'Mechs can be behind cover at 800m, or 500m - it really doesn't make a difference on most maps. Sure, you'd have marginal improvements in the build's vulnerability - in exchange for more heat efficiency on those middle-range guns. It'll change the problem; it might even mitigate the problem. It won't solve the problem, because the long-range component of these builds are only part of the general problem of Time to Kill. If you can blast a brawler down into red armor or open structure with a single burst, it's not going to matter to him if you had to get within 500m to do that.

And now we're looking at cERMLs being in range, so you need to nerf them, too... Pretty soon you end up with all those separate Heat Scale groups interlocking. I think you're underestimating how opaque that will be. Think about the warning triangle in the Mechlab. "Firing more than 2 Gauss Rifles or PPCs simultaneously results in a heat spike higher than normal" becomes "Firing more than 2 Gauss Rifles or PPCs simultaneously with 2ER Large Lasers or 3 Large Pulse Lasers (or two Large Pulse Lasers with 4 ER Medium Lasers or 1 ER Large Laser,) or..." It's not going to be pretty; you might get roughly functional, but it'll never be elegant. Getting five warning messages for adding one weapon system is not an improvement to the MechLab, that's for sure.

Keying heat scale penalties to damage output would avoid this complexity, but that has problems of its own - as well as unintended consequences for dps-oriented weapons like X-Pulse and dakka.

LRMs cannot be a "natural predator" for builds whose playstyle directly works against LRMs primary limitation - the necessity of maintaining a lock. Generally, that's LoS, unless you have (edit: gah, this is what I get for posting in a hurry) a spotter - which brings up a whole host of other questions, like how LRMs are either totally overpowered or laughable, contingent on semi-random factors like map selection and team comp. But in any case, a build that literally works by breaking LoS to cool (and often uses ECM) simply isn't that bothered by LRMs. That's why LRMs are so rare in higher Tier matches.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 November 2023 - 06:01 PM.

[Staude Coston]

I respect his work and the effort he puts in
However, a lot of things are going in the wrong direction
and if mechs are only puffed to get financial resources then in my opinion it is wrong
How about just being honest and telling when it comes to financial resources

[Volume]

the check engine light, on 25 November 2023 - 03:08 PM, said:

Every time I hear Lights OP I'm reminded of how poorly most of my lights fare. My best has been the COM-2D with SRMs because it's actually pretty damn good. Most of the others take a lot more work to make work, the Commando is kind of made of ********.

Luckily the hit detection on Commandos has never been accurate and feels like it has only gotten worse over time. You used to be able to handle this by dragon-bowling them, but that was 10 or 11 years ago. Now you can shoot a gauss at the thing's cockpit and it registers as a hit to the rear armor somehow. lol..

JOATMON Incorporated, on 26 November 2023 - 01:15 AM, said:

What you did to my baby Thunderbolt 10SE was NOT a buff.
Removing weapon velocity hurt PPC use at range against horizontally mobile targets.
Also as others have already pointed out, due to critical hits, structure hitpoints, are not as good as armor hitpoints.

Doing changes like lasers range 5% bonus being changed to energy 5% or even a universal range 5% are changes that feel like upgrades.
Changes like velocity being turned into something completely different feels more like someone was trying to force-fit a personal build into gameplay instead of enabling additional play use with existing chassis.

Maybe they should buff the Osiris.
It's the one light mech I don't own.


What I don't understand is why it was changed in the first place. If the mech is underperforming, and you want to buff it, why even take away the velocity? What does it matter? Was the mech having 5%-10% extra velocity really too much, too gamebreaking after the other adjustments? What's the mindset behind removing the velocity. That's more important. Especially because some other mechs get quirks of +60%-75% velocity or +270% something. The thunderbolt having 5-10% is too much? Why? It would be nice to have any sort of explanation for the changes, or some kind of communication about the goals of a change, like, "This specific build was doing too well, so we adjusted this" or "We aim to do X Y and Z, so we are doing A B and C" - even if it's a bad idea ("we want to increase TTK, so we will nerf Clan DHS") is better than "We changed this. [Good luck figuring out why]

[RoyKilroy]

How about updating or improving some of the lesser played mechs (giving players incentive to use them) ?

[Mechwarrior2342356]

RoyKilroy, on 06 December 2023 - 11:30 AM, said:

How about updating or improving some of the lesser played mechs (giving players incentive to use them) ?

They are revisiting Cicada hitboxes. Vindicators still need help I think, Trebs are usually rare though I saw 2 last night (hero is super rare). Panther 10P is underquirked IMO in light of the Cent gigaquirking. Griffin needs a size reduction and hitbox tweaks I think. Wolverines rare, probably need to be looked at. Saw a Highlander for the first time in a while last night, they're rare. Most Victors are MIA. Zeus needs a ton of help, practically non-existent these days.

[aardappelianen]

if alphas are to big why not just add more duration to lasers ?, it doesnt matter what you do to laser, they are are ammo less hitscan weapons they will allways work even if a full burn took 2 seconds

please just normalize velocities, get rid of heatscale conundrums and do universal quirks and then never touch that again

if a mech is still too powerfull just halve its armor or whatever, after all these years i feel like i've never stopped relearning how to play again

[Mechwarrior2342356]

aardappelianen, on 06 December 2023 - 08:40 PM, said:

if alphas are to big why not just add more duration to lasers ?, it doesnt matter what you do to laser, they are are ammo less hitscan weapons they will allways work even if a full burn took 2 seconds

please just normalize velocities, get rid of heatscale conundrums and do universal quirks and then never touch that again

if a mech is still too powerfull just halve its armor or whatever, after all these years i feel like i've never stopped relearning how to play again

Relearning a requirked mech and altering skilltree to match is really kind of a pain but personally... the skilltree is the worst part of that usually. Build switch ups are mostly annoying because of things like structure and armor toggling and engines.

Edited by the check engine light, 07 December 2023 - 07:10 AM.

[Staude Coston]

Cauldron makes the same mistake as PGI.
He should think about what concerns FP His quirks throw the mech balance out of
But I don't think he cares because he's pursuing other people

[BlueDevilspawn]

The Cauldron's remit is primarily QP. AFAIK PGI's own priority is QP and EQ. FP doesn't factor into balance concerns and any changes that are made are low-hanging fruit that are addressed when there is time to do so.

Even though they were left out of the patch notes, the hitbox changes to the Atlas, Cicada, Jenner IIC, etc. did apparently go through.