50 replies to this topic

[Runecarver]

Correct, there was a flawed perception of the Hyper Assault Gauss. By the people who decided to quickly slap it together and implement it as they are. Thinking its a high precision or even sniping weapon.

[MechB Kotare]

Weeny Machine, on 29 November 2023 - 10:06 AM, said:

pitiful strawman.

Favourite word of people who have no arguments. Right after conspiracy. Do you even know what does it mean?

Quote

an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

"her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"



2.


a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.

"a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"

I provided enough valid arguments in other topics, to show you, how twisted, biased and subjective your opinions and arguments are. Exactly why i said, that its useless to try argue with people like you. You are stuck in your little tunnel vision of your own truth.

Weeny Machine, on 29 November 2023 - 10:06 AM, said:

But let me answer in the tone you favour: maybe it is just you who cannot position yourself and shoot that way to make this happen if you think it that unbelievable?

You are absolutely right, i can't one shot a dedicated t1 light mech pilot with hags at 800m. No one can. They will get out of my Los (line of sight) before i even charge up the weapon.

Weeny Machine, on 29 November 2023 - 10:06 AM, said:

Every mech, regardless of speed, stands still now and then.

Im sure everyone stands still in your tier Weeny .

Edited by MechB Kotare, 29 November 2023 - 02:46 PM.

[LordNothing]

you dont precharge? i keep my gauss/hags cycling if i think something is about to go down.

it always bugged me that racs penalize keeping the guns spun, but gauss gets away with it scott free.

[MechB Kotare]

LordNothing, on 29 November 2023 - 06:12 PM, said:

you dont precharge? i keep my gauss/hags cycling if i think something is about to go down.

it always bugged me that racs penalize keeping the guns spun, but gauss gets away with it scott free.

Precharge punishes predictable movement/behaviour. One of basic things, that you, as light mech player should absolutely not have. That's why top light mech players don't peak the same place more than twice, when being focused by someone.

Precharge itself is also very predictable, and in most cases calculable. The whole process of charge up, and holding as long as possible, takes what? 3,5 seconds with skill nodes? You can almost always predict that, and expose/shoot just in that gap between losing carge up, and charging up again., assuming you really wanna poke that very same corner again.

It takes high skill movement, situational awareness and multidimensional thinking. It is why best light mech pilots are also one of the best players in the whole game.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 30 November 2023 - 03:25 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

MechB Kotare, on 30 November 2023 - 03:23 AM, said:

Precharge itself is also very predictable, and in most cases calculable. The whole process of charge up, and holding as long as possible, takes what? 3,5 seconds with skill nodes? You can almost always predict that, and expose/shoot just in that gap between losing carge up, and charging up again., assuming you really wanna poke that very same corner again.

well that or a macro that does all the work of cycling for you (ie setting it so that it automatically resets after a given amount of time so all you need do is hold the button down until you are ready to shoot.). one of the many reasons i consider macros as low lvl cheating even if PGI allows it.

[MechB Kotare]

CFC Conky, on 28 November 2023 - 12:27 PM, said:

Down at my Tier, HAGs aren't a huge problem if I'm running lights or fast mediums, a bit more problematic when running heavies. On the other hand, when I'm in an assault mech, HAGs can be a real pain. I understand the argument about never standing still but at 48.6kph you might as well be, at any range.

I also hear the argument that with the increased burst duration, one can simply twist and spread the damage. Ok, but if you're being fired upon by an enemy outside of you viewing arc, or even simply well hidden by terrain, by the time the first HAG round hits and your brain registers that you should twist, most, if not all, of the slugs have already hit a particular component.

At mid and/or close range, HAGs don't bother me too much since I'm usually aware of the enemy and their load out and will act accordingly. At long range however, they need a spread increase, in my opinion.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

It is still easier to spread that incomming damage the longer the distance between you and enemy is. Hags become real problem for biggies the closer they are, because when distance gets shorter, your reaction time gap gets shorter as well, thus making that big alpha of theirs much easier to focus into one component.

If you add spread at long range, it would only promote more their usage at closer ranges. Thus making ACs obsolete. I don't want that. That's is why they should (imo) have their previous nerfs reverted, and have their burst durations nerfed even more.

Spread increase would come naturaly with longer burst at long range (assuming you don't stay still when trading with hags). They would require longer face time at longer distance, and they would be significantly worse in shorter range brackets.

VeeOt Dragon, on 30 November 2023 - 10:01 AM, said:

well that or a macro that does all the work of cycling for you (ie setting it so that it automatically resets after a given amount of time so all you need do is hold the button down until you are ready to shoot.). one of the many reasons i consider macros as low lvl cheating even if PGI allows it.

Macro doesnt turn off gauss charge, which represents the opening i was referring to, so it's less than a cheat, and more of a quality of life feature for lazy low skilled people who wanna be closer to better players. It's cheap, but whatever. Macro is much more recognizable and abusable when boating other ballistics, such as AC2s and AC5. You can basically chain fire them into a suppresive stream of fire, avoiding ghost heat etc. etc. Which is much worse than macroing gauss charge imo.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 30 November 2023 - 01:31 PM.

[Vxheous]

VeeOt Dragon, on 30 November 2023 - 10:01 AM, said:

well that or a macro that does all the work of cycling for you (ie setting it so that it automatically resets after a given amount of time so all you need do is hold the button down until you are ready to shoot.). one of the many reasons i consider macros as low lvl cheating even if PGI allows it.

Show me a macro that does this, it's not a thing

[CFC Conky]

MechB Kotare, on 30 November 2023 - 01:30 PM, said:

It is still easier to spread that incomming damage the longer the distance between you and enemy is.
...

Spread increase would come naturaly with longer burst at long range (assuming you don't stay still when trading with hags). They would require longer face time at longer distance, and they would be significantly worse in shorter range brackets.

...

Reaction time is a thing, so if you are getting Hagged from an unseen direction, most of the slugs will impact at close to the same spot in the time it takes for your brain to tell your hand to move the mouse, especially when driving large, slow mechs with slow torso twist speeds. I usually twist continuously when traversing open terrain and/or crossing over a ridge while in transit to the fight. Once said fight starts however, movement tends to slow down, even for good players I've seen on YT or Twitch, leaving one vulnerable to HAG bursts from unseen directions.

Actually, increasing burst duration could be an acceptable compromise to spread, giving a player more time to twist damage away, in the same manner as with Heavy lasers.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 30 November 2023 - 02:56 PM.

[simon1812]

Personally I think HAGs were fine when introduced. Second....nerf? Each patch keeps improving their accuracy by removing the spread.

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.286.0 - 21-NOVEMBER-2023

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 20:
Removed 0.07 Projectile spread
Increased Heat to 7.0 (from 5.5)
Increased cooldown to 4.5s (from 4s)

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 30:
Removed 0.08 Projectile spread
Increased Heat to 13 (from 10)
Increased cooldown to 5.5s (from 5s)

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 40:
Removed 0.09 Projectile spread
Increased Heat to 14 (from 11)
Increased cooldown to 6.5s (from 6s)

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.284.0 - 24-OCTOBER-2023

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 20
Reduced projectile spread to 0.07 (from 0.14)

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 30
Reduced projectile spread to 0.08 (from 0.155)
Increased Heat to 10 (from 9)

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 40
Reduced projectile spread to 0.09 (from 0.17)

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.283.0 - 19-SEPTEMBER-2023

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 20
Increased burst duration to 0.42s (from 0.33s) - from 0.11s between slugs to 0.14s

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 30
Increased burst duration to 0.7s (from 0.55s) - from 0.11s between slugs to 0.14s
Reduced spread to 0.155 (from 0.17)
Increased heat to 9.0 (from 8.25)

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 40
Increased burst duration to 0.98s (from 0.77s) - from 0.11s between slugs to 0.14s
Reduced spread to 0.17 (from 0.2)

And finally the patch that saw them included in the game and stats as they were introduced
PATCH NOTES - 1.4.281.0 - 22-AUGUST-2023


HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS 40
Total damage: 40
Number of shells: 8
Spread: 0.2
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Optimal range: 810 meters
Max range: 1620 meters
Velocity: 2000 m/s
Slots: 10
Tons: 16
Health: 27

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS 30
Total damage: 30
Number of shells: 6
Spread: 0.17
Cooldown: 5 seconds
Optimal range: 810 meters
Max range: 1620 meters
Velocity: 2000 m/s
Slots: 8
Tons: 13
Health: 20

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS 20
Total damage: 20
Number of shells: 4
Spread: 0.14
Cooldown: 4 seconds
Optimal range: 810 meters
Max range: 1620 meters
Velocity: 2000 m/s
Slots: 6
Tons: 10
Health: 15

Ps

Hope I got them right, but what you guys think does it look like nerfing?

[Vxheous]

simon1812, on 01 December 2023 - 08:55 AM, said:

Personally I think HAGs were fine when introduced. Second....nerf? Each patch keeps improving their accuracy by removing the spread.

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.286.0 - 21-NOVEMBER-2023

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 20:
Removed 0.07 Projectile spread
Increased Heat to 7.0 (from 5.5)
Increased cooldown to 4.5s (from 4s)

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 30:
Removed 0.08 Projectile spread
Increased Heat to 13 (from 10)
Increased cooldown to 5.5s (from 5s)

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 40:
Removed 0.09 Projectile spread
Increased Heat to 14 (from 11)
Increased cooldown to 6.5s (from 6s)

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.284.0 - 24-OCTOBER-2023

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 20
Reduced projectile spread to 0.07 (from 0.14)

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 30
Reduced projectile spread to 0.08 (from 0.155)
Increased Heat to 10 (from 9)

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 40
Reduced projectile spread to 0.09 (from 0.17)

PATCH NOTES - 1.4.283.0 - 19-SEPTEMBER-2023

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 20
Increased burst duration to 0.42s (from 0.33s) - from 0.11s between slugs to 0.14s

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 30
Increased burst duration to 0.7s (from 0.55s) - from 0.11s between slugs to 0.14s
Reduced spread to 0.155 (from 0.17)
Increased heat to 9.0 (from 8.25)

CLAN HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS RIFLE 40
Increased burst duration to 0.98s (from 0.77s) - from 0.11s between slugs to 0.14s
Reduced spread to 0.17 (from 0.2)

And finally the patch that saw them included in the game and stats as they were introduced
PATCH NOTES - 1.4.281.0 - 22-AUGUST-2023


HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS 40
Total damage: 40
Number of shells: 8
Spread: 0.2
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Optimal range: 810 meters
Max range: 1620 meters
Velocity: 2000 m/s
Slots: 10
Tons: 16
Health: 27

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS 30
Total damage: 30
Number of shells: 6
Spread: 0.17
Cooldown: 5 seconds
Optimal range: 810 meters
Max range: 1620 meters
Velocity: 2000 m/s
Slots: 8
Tons: 13
Health: 20

HYPER ASSAULT GAUSS 20
Total damage: 20
Number of shells: 4
Spread: 0.14
Cooldown: 4 seconds
Optimal range: 810 meters
Max range: 1620 meters
Velocity: 2000 m/s
Slots: 6
Tons: 10
Health: 15

Ps

Hope I got them right, but what you guys think does it look like nerfing?

Yes, because the increased cooldown and the huge increase in heat means you can't shoot them as often, or paired with as many lasers as previous, which is a big nerf, despite removing the artificial spread. The increased time in burst also added an element of spread on it's own.

Edited by Vxheous, 01 December 2023 - 09:39 AM.

[PsionicMantis]

Vxheous, on 30 November 2023 - 02:19 PM, said:

Show me a macro that does this, it's not a thing

Actually, give me a moment and ill see if my mouse can macro this. There is a function in it to repeat the macro until the button is released. so i might be able to manage this. I'll let you know the results

[PsionicMantis]

It might be possible, but im having difficulties with the charge timing and im unsure what kind of repeat delay the macro has.

EDIT: I have managed to get it to work with abit of fine tuning by making the hold down as long as the charge time (possibly like 100ms longer) so that way the release is just after the charge gauge empties. This allows the macro to cycle through its repeat until the button is released.

This is what the macro interface looks like for my mouse
https://imgur.com/a/2peiLCO

Edited by PsionicMantis, 01 December 2023 - 10:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

So while I agree that HAGs have honestly felt like they are probably on the lower end of the curve (I think the HAG20s got overnerfed and the HSL on HAG30s probably should have been 1 this whole time). I do think we are seeing the issue with introducing weapons that provide too much concentrated damage for the tonnage (range factors in here as well). There is some ratio that you want to stay around, and that going above that you end up using balancing mechanisms that just make it worse in upper tiers of play and don't address the real issue in lower tiers. By that I really mean burst duration and/or cooldown. Cooldown limits how fast you can repeat alphas which is good, if you missed that is, which is why having weapons that offer too much concentrated damage per salvo in lower tiers can be broken (don't conflate broken with OP, they are two different concepts) because one shot joke builds that started us down the path of ghost heat (RIP 6 PPC Stalker) in the first place become more practical (ignoring the power creep since then as well).

IMO I still like the artificial splash route given the technical limitations because it still rewards skilled shots, but it also reduces the damage concentration and can allow the cooldowns to come back more to a realistic value or the ghost heat (both modifier and limits) to be less restricting. What I don't want to see is velocity get nerfed because IMO, velocity and range should go hand in hand. One should not get changed without the other. We've seen time and time again how much velocity can impact the usage of weapons at certain ranges and I'd really like to stop seeing velocity nerfs as a balancing mechanism. There should be a baseline velocity per range and the only modification that should ever be allowed is quirks that allow velocity to go up above that baseline.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 December 2023 - 11:14 AM.

[Vxheous]

PsionicMantis, on 01 December 2023 - 10:06 AM, said:

It might be possible, but im having difficulties with the charge timing and im unsure what kind of repeat delay the macro has.

EDIT: I have managed to get it to work with abit of fine tuning by making the hold down as long as the charge time (possibly like 100ms longer) so that way the release is just after the charge gauge empties. This allows the macro to cycle through its repeat until the button is released.

This is what the macro interface looks like for my mouse
https://imgur.com/a/2peiLCO

I just feather my gauss charge until I'm ready to shoot which I guess does the exact same thing. Good on you for figuring it out though

[foamyesque]

Vxheous, on 01 December 2023 - 09:38 AM, said:

Yes, because the increased cooldown and the huge increase in heat means you can't shoot them as often, or paired with as many lasers as previous, which is a big nerf, despite removing the artificial spread. The increased time in burst also added an element of spread on it's own.

The duration jump and the heat/cooldown jumps are genuine nerfs and I don't think anyone's denying that, but the question of their impact when coupled with the complete removal of the initial spread is more complex. I would've left spread alone while I pulled the other levers, and from where we are right now I'd definitely put it back to the original value or even beyond (and probably knock back the heat but not the cooldown).

HAGs are the trigger for a Clan DHS nerf, HAGs were the trigger for multiple UAC buffs (jam chance, ammo/ton), and we've had Cauldron folk come here and say HAGs might get even more heat nerfs... all because people don't want the damn weapon to spread. And meanwhile people try to say 'HAGs aren't the problem actually', which is just bizarre.

Edited by foamyesque, 01 December 2023 - 02:45 PM.

[Vxheous]

foamyesque, on 01 December 2023 - 02:34 PM, said:

The duration jump and the heat/cooldown jumps are genuine nerfs and I don't think anyone's denying that, but the question of their impact when coupled with the complete removal of the initial spread is more complex. I would've left spread alone while I pulled the other levers, and from where we are right now I'd definitely put it back to the original value or even beyond.

HAGs are the trigger for a Clan DHS nerf, HAGs were the trigger for multiple UAC buffs (jam chance, ammo/ton), and we've had Cauldron folk come here and say HAGs might get even more heat nerfs... all because people don't want the damn weapon to spread. And meanwhile people try to say 'HAGs aren't the problem actually', which is just bizarre.

With the odd game that I've been able to play with how the servers are right now, HAGs play like hot garbage now. I went back to using UAC2/UAC5s and Gauss

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 01 December 2023 - 02:34 PM, said:

HAGs are the trigger for a Clan DHS nerf

I'd disagree, I'd actually say the DHS nerf has been necessary since before 2018 because well, Clan tech has been able to mount more DHS on average than IS mechs and their weapons really aren't that different in DPH when factoring in range as well. I mean the entire reason the BLC was added was an attempt to "equalize" IS laser vomit to Clans albeit not in the best way.

Ultimately, when you have a side that is able to mount significantly more heat sinks, has near equivalent heat efficient weapons, and worse is 2018 removed somewhat of a diminishing returns property of heat sinks (by "normalizing" heat sinks internal to the engine and external) yeah it isn't a shock necessarily that Clan laser vomit outperformed.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 December 2023 - 04:46 PM.

[foamyesque]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 December 2023 - 04:43 PM, said:

I'd disagree, I'd actually say the DHS nerf has been necessary since before 2018 because well, Clan tech has been able to mount more DHS on average than IS mechs and their weapons really aren't that different in DPH when factoring in range as well. I mean the entire reason the BLC was added was an attempt to "equalize" IS laser vomit to Clans albeit not in the best way.

Ultimately, when you have a side that is able to mount significantly more heat sinks, has near equivalent heat efficient weapons, and worse is 2018 removed somewhat of a diminishing returns property of heat sinks (by "normalizing" heat sinks internal to the engine and external) yeah it isn't a shock necessarily that Clan laser vomit outperformed.

Sure, but there's a reason it's happening now instead of a year ago or more, and that reason is HAGs made the problem unignorable by making vomit far stronger. The 30% heat nerf they ate in the recent patch helps there, but still.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 01 December 2023 - 06:30 PM, said:

Sure, but there's a reason it's happening now instead of a year ago or more, and that reason is HAGs made the problem unignorable by making vomit far stronger. The 30% heat nerf they ate in the recent patch helps there, but still.

Pretty sure the talk about alphas has been around for a minute, as has the cool shot nerf. I think a lot of this has been incubating well before HAGs, HAGs may have tilted the scales a bit but I don't think it is the whole reason we are seeing this. I mean laser/hag/gauss vomit alphas have moved further since even the days of the Space Whale.

[simon1812]

Watch out guys, if you dont agree on Wether HAGs are too weak or too strong, we will have to conclude it's all subjective...and a matter of each player's own skills.