56 replies to this topic

[MOPCKOE]

Why do you consider the appeal to the player’s “tier” sufficient to devalue my conclusions about general game mechanics? This is a rhetorical question, I don’t agree with you anyway.

There are obvious things like when you have open empty spaces and SEVERELY limited speed of movement through these spaces - a player capable of long-range hitting a target has an absolute overwhelming advantage over a player who does not have such an ability.

At the same time, it’s ridiculous to talk about some kind of compensation for the second player - in this game there are no teleports behind the back, enabled WALLS OF ARMOR and the like. You are simply taken apart until you get far enough to realize your advantages.
In addition, this advantage-compensation itself is not sufficient; in my experience, short-range mechs in most cases get too hot and cannot attack, or have too little armor, and otherwise speed, so that the short-range player has not a feeling of superiority in front of the sniper.

Edited by MOPCKOE, 11 December 2023 - 06:34 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Besh, on 11 December 2023 - 07:55 AM, said:

I suggest you 2 take a room somewhere and make it out between yourselves ? Forums don't need to be privy to your romance .

LRMs at 10 paces, that way they can’t hurt each other.

[Novakaine]

He needs some milk.

[ScrapIron Prime]

the check engine light, on 12 December 2023 - 08:10 AM, said:

Hot chai with splash of oat milk. PPCs on the side.

I have never, in my life, seen anyone milk a sheaf of oats. Therefore, oat milk is not "milk."

[pbiggz]

MOPCKOE, on 11 December 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

Why do you consider the appeal to the player’s “tier” sufficient to devalue my conclusions about general game mechanics? This is a rhetorical question, I don’t agree with you anyway.

People were looking at your jarl stats, and they dont indicate you were overperforming.

MOPCKOE, on 11 December 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

There are obvious things like when you have open empty spaces and SEVERELY limited speed of movement through these spaces - a player capable of long-range hitting a target has an absolute overwhelming advantage over a player who does not have such an ability.

That's the same as saying in a confined space with limited avenues for escape or maneuvering, a brawler has an overwhelming advantage. This is where these mechs are SUPPOSED to have an advantage. They are SPECIALIST builds, not generalists.

MOPCKOE, on 11 December 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

At the same time, it’s ridiculous to talk about some kind of compensation for the second player - in this game there are no teleports behind the back, enabled WALLS OF ARMOR and the like. You are simply taken apart until you get far enough to realize your advantages.

Ah, so you are pulling a [former prolific poster on this forum] and assuming the counter to sniping is to cross open territory with no cover. You should probably explore other strategies because doing what the sniper wants is not how you defeat a sniper.

MOPCKOE, on 11 December 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

In addition, this advantage-compensation itself is not sufficient; in my experience, short-range mechs in most cases get too hot and cannot attack, or have too little armor, and otherwise speed, so that the short-range player has not a feeling of superiority in front of the sniper.

IDK what game you are playing but if you catch a sniper in close range combat its a free kill. Sniper weapons have high alpha but low DPS and they're generally hot. They cant outdps laser spam, SRMs, and autocannons at point blank range. Thats a simple fact.




This thread is just a rehash of a million threads before it; someone expressing how snipers are so OP, and then confessing they have no idea how to counterplay, and don't really want to learn.

[foamyesque]

Some long range builds can hold their own pretty well in a brawl -- they won't be as good at it as a dedicated brawler, but are not 'free kills' in the same way, say, a pure LRM machine can be (I had a match last evening where the last two 'mechs alive were a fresh LRM5 Longbow and a halved Night Gyr with an open CT and a single ERML. It eventually ended when the Longbow intentionally walked out of bounds :v).

AC5s, AC2s, standard / light gauss, are all mid-long to long weapons that can still punish effectively up close. ERPPCs and ERLLs are the ones that struggle the most (other than LRMs) because of the sheer amount of heat they generate. HAGs are hotter these days but they're still able to put a ton of damage on target so you need to play smart in fighting one regardless of range.

Edited by foamyesque, 26 December 2023 - 02:32 AM.

[Bassault]

MOPCKOE, on 11 December 2023 - 06:25 PM, said:

Why do you consider the appeal to the player’s “tier” sufficient to devalue my conclusions about general game mechanics? This is a rhetorical question, I don’t agree with you anyway.

There are obvious things like when you have open empty spaces and SEVERELY limited speed of movement through these spaces - a player capable of long-range hitting a target has an absolute overwhelming advantage over a player who does not have such an ability.

At the same time, it’s ridiculous to talk about some kind of compensation for the second player - in this game there are no teleports behind the back, enabled WALLS OF ARMOR and the like. You are simply taken apart until you get far enough to realize your advantages.
In addition, this advantage-compensation itself is not sufficient; in my experience, short-range mechs in most cases get too hot and cannot attack, or have too little armor, and otherwise speed, so that the short-range player has not a feeling of superiority in front of the sniper.

Because if you're doing poorly at the game that means you don't understand it, and if you don't understand it, then you are not qualified to have an opinion that should be taken seriously.

Also if you only hit CT once or twice for every ten shots you take, I can imagine why your build might seem a bit too hot. Consider not missing, or maybe post what your close range builds look like so we can fix them.

Edited by Bassault, 13 December 2023 - 04:42 PM.

[MechB Kotare]

MOPCKOE, on 03 December 2023 - 02:46 PM, said:

Say bout NTG - 2GAUSS 2 LL ECM - This is the easiest 600+ damage. Because my goal can't do ANYTHING. They don't even always see me when I look at them point-blank because of the ECM.
It's like I'm beating children.

And in the end I have almost full armor and still have a few rounds left to fire.
Despite the fact that this assembly has jump jets and they actually work, unlike the garbage of the inner sphere, which is constantly deficient in the number of ammo, XL engines, and the like.


I realized that the entire game I had played before, all those annoying open and boring maps and the “balance” of all the weapons in the game, was simply made for a style of play so that specifically a few sniper builds would feel comfortable.

By the way, one of the few opponents who could resist was a stalker with large lasers. And guess what? I'm talking about the recent nerf to the 4BLK stalker. They didn’t give this build even a month before they immediately nerfed it, although many write that it was a fairly optimal build at that time.

You don't know what meta is.

[Denegamez]

MOPCKOE, on 03 December 2023 - 02:46 PM, said:

And in the end I have almost full armor and still have a few rounds left to fire.

this is why snipers get so much hate ... use that armour share with the team ... you know.,. the guys letting you shoot safely ?

[Weeny Machine]

Bassault, on 13 December 2023 - 04:40 PM, said:

Because if you're doing poorly at the game that means you don't understand it, and if you don't understand it, then you are not qualified to have an opinion that should be taken seriously.

Also if you only hit CT once or twice for every ten shots you take, I can imagine why your build might seem a bit too hot. Consider not missing, or maybe post what your close range builds look like so we can fix them.

...or maybe it is the other way around: that if you cannot cope with a brawler in close combat with your sniper, you might be the issue

[MechB Kotare]

Denegamez, on 16 December 2023 - 12:10 PM, said:

this is why snipers get so much hate ... use that armour share with the team ... you know.,. the guys letting you shoot safely ?

This is mostly because teams automatically run away from their snipers. If people want snipers to share armor, they should stay with them, or at least close to them. Of course they dont share armor with you, when you die behind terrain obscuring their los.

[pbiggz]

Weeny Machine, on 17 December 2023 - 06:50 AM, said:

...or maybe it is the other way around: that if you cannot cope with a brawler in close combat with your sniper, you might be the issue

Nobody here is saying brawlers are OP. That is an argument you just fabricated. Unless I am not understanding what you're writing, but it feels like you're simply here to try to gotcha anyone who disputes the sniper OP argument because you've made hating on comp guys into a sort of political slogan on the forums.

MechB Kotare, on 18 December 2023 - 03:37 AM, said:

This is mostly because teams automatically run away from their snipers. If people want snipers to share armor, they should stay with them, or at least close to them. Of course they dont share armor with you, when you die behind terrain obscuring their los.

Snipers need a buff cause the team leaves them behind. Brawlers need a buff cause the team leaves them behind. Lights need a buff because they leave the team behind...

A good chunk of people's sense of balance here is simply perception; every strategy has advantages and disadvantages. Midrange has the most advantages and the fewest disadvantages, that's why its (still) king, and frankly, it should be. Brawlers should be unmatched in close combat. Snipers unmatched in long range combat, because those are specialist strategies wherein you accept increased risk (clear cut ways to be countered) in exchange for being unmatched in your chosen engagements. OP and many others, do not understand this.

Im not disputing the notion of doing a few tweaks here and there, but when people make this same thread, saying that snipers are OP because they couldn't lumber across open territory in a stone rhino, alone with no cover or support, it makes it clear that a lot of people just don't have the context or experience to comment on balance. What they need is practice, and the other half of these threads is paragraphs of cope about why they shouldn't have to do that, because they never had to do it in PVE mechwarrior games before.

I say this as a guy who is emphatically ok at this game. Im not amazing at positioning, im not an amazing shot. My stats are middle of the road at best. I haven't spent enough time playing to get out of tier 3 since the reset (I think i may have been in 2 pre-reset but that was a long time ago, and I don't really care, you shouldn't even be able to see tiers anyway) so if im saying the same thing as a bunch of comp guys who practice and play this game as a sport, its probably because they're right, not because they're exploiting, or overly sweaty.

[MOPCKOE]

pbiggz, on 13 December 2023 - 07:30 AM, said:

People were looking at your jarl stats, and they dont indicate you were overperforming.



That's the same as saying in a confined space with limited avenues for escape or maneuvering, a brawler has an overwhelming advantage. This is where these mechs are SUPPOSED to have an advantage. They are SPECIALIST builds, not generalists.



Ah, so you are pulling a [former prolific poster on this forum] and assuming the counter to sniping is to cross open territory with no cover. You should probably explore other strategies because doing what the sniper wants is not how you defeat a sniper.



IDK what game you are playing but if you catch a sniper in close range combat its a free kill. Sniper weapons have high alpha but low DPS and they're generally hot. They cant outdps laser spam, SRMs, and autocannons at point blank range. Thats a simple fact.




This thread is just a rehash of a million threads before it; someone expressing how snipers are so OP, and then confessing they have no idea how to counterplay, and don't really want to learn.

This is all very interesting, but in reality, on most maps that you will come across in the game, you will see two huge slides on the sides for sniping from them, limited by the “edges of the map” on the back side and some weirdos in the middle, trying to hide and survive a hail of damage.

[pbiggz]

MOPCKOE, on 20 December 2023 - 05:00 PM, said:

This is all very interesting, but in reality, on most maps that you will come across in the game, you will see two huge slides on the sides for sniping from them, limited by the “edges of the map” on the back side and some weirdos in the middle, trying to hide and survive a hail of damage.

Most of the old maps are smaller. Most of the new maps have an even spread of close range and long range areas. If you’re getting pinned under sniper fire consistently you suck at positioning and you need to practice. For what it’s worth, I suck at it too, it’s why I tend to play with friends, who help me move and maintain better positions than I would otherwise be able to do myself.

[PocketYoda]

the check engine light, on 03 December 2023 - 03:38 PM, said:

you're at T4 playing with a Gauss ERLL ECM sniper against likely kitchen sink and bracket builds and LRMs, you're effectively kicking puppies, are you expecting applause the quad BLC stalker was obscene and deserved the nerfbat

I dunno what game you are playing but MWO has been about puppy kicking (Seal clubbing) since its inception.. Its sad but its been here forever..

[Kynesis]

PocketYoda, on 24 December 2023 - 06:33 PM, said:

I dunno what game you are playing but MWO has been about puppy kicking (Seal clubbing) since its inception.. Its sad but its been here forever..

It speaks volumes about the people who control the game.

[pbiggz]

Kynesis, on 29 December 2023 - 07:47 PM, said:

It speaks volumes about the people who control the game.

I mean that's a thing that you could say if you're ok with making things up.