23 replies to this topic

[Abaddun]

I wanted to raise a discussion about a way to play around a the sniper meta, a particular gripe that seems to consistently rear it's ugly head in forum posts. I'm not going to get into the merits or foibles of that playstyle, but I wanted to raise the discussion of implementing smokescreen as a consumable to soft counter such a playstyle.

I must confess, I don't like consumables, I haven't liked them since their release, but I see it as the ideal vehicle to implement such a mechanic, though given creative control I would have made consumables 0CB a long time ago, but that is an argument for another day. I also don't know how feasible it will be to code it into the game, as I am aware that MWO does not have the luxury of developer time at the moment.

But should it be implemented I imagine it would create a wall of smoke and chaff on a section of map approx 150m in front of the deploying mech or the closest flat section section not obstructed be terrain.

The wall would be around of a sufficient size and height to obscure at least two large mechs standing side by side and be thin enough that a mech could not just stand inside it.

The wall would provide complete obstruction to line of sight and sensor lock on, however it shall not block shots or disable the hit notification. If not too complex to code, the chaff could make the smoke appear "fuzzy" in HV, hot mechs would present a more defined outline whilst cold ones would be masked.

Deployment of smoke screen puts all other mechs on the team on a cooldown for 30-40 seconds like artillery and each smoke wall should last for approx 30 seconds, in effect allowing for a coordinated team to deploy "Rolling smoke" I can imagine a team push behind smoke being quite a spectacle in competitive games.

How does the rest of the community feels about this; good, bad, maybe?

[Bud Crue]

Regardless of the potential merits of a smokescreen and its impact on the sniper meta, I can only imagine how the particle effects of a smokescreen would tank performance of many user's PCs, to the point of making the game unplayable. And if those effects could be minimized via some sort of setting or config adjustment then the whole exercise would be rendered moot pretty quickly.

[Saved By The Bell]

2 medium-lights guys can kill any alone sniper.
They just don't do their job. Most of them run all map under ecstasy.

[An6ryMan69]

Previous responses basically explained why your solid idea is not likely going to happen.

In a game where smoke could not simply be turned off by your opponents, and would not slow down the game, it might be a good individual tactical tool.

And so many players thinking quickplay means "Run around and do random sh*t until you die." doesn't help dealing with he sniper situation.

[torsie]

I dont know about the sniper thingie, but this sounds like a fun idea to me.

I very much like the foggy swamp map, those clouds obscure your vision, but dont actually provide hiding spot like walls do, since you can shoot through.
It is so much fun prowling around with your super vision on, like a 90 ton predator, chasing someone just because you saw a bit of them poking from behind a cloud .

I once run into enemy player in the fog and we both panicked, looked at each other, and walked back into the clouds, so hilarious .

Edited by torsie, 07 December 2023 - 07:31 AM.

[Athom83]

OR, they can do a mechanical addition and add ammo switching to the game; which would give LRMs and SRMs a smoke warhead. That said, the standard munition for quite a few weapons in game would be nerfed as a result as they currently already do what alternate ammos are supposed to be for.

[Novakaine]

Saved By The Bell, on 07 December 2023 - 07:01 AM, said:

2 medium-lights guys can kill any alone sniper.
They just don't do their job. Most of them run all map under ecstasy.

This.

An6ryMan69, on 07 December 2023 - 07:28 AM, said:

Previous responses basically explained why your solid idea is not likely going to happen.

In a game where smoke could not simply be turned off by your opponents, and would not slow down the game, it might be a good individual tactical tool.

And so many players thinking quickplay means "Run around and do random sh*t until you die." doesn't help dealing with he sniper situation.

And this.

[martian]

Abaddun, on 07 December 2023 - 03:54 AM, said:

Smokescreen Canisters As A Consumable
....
How does the rest of the community feels about this; good, bad, maybe?

Two things:

1) Some players play MWO on old computers and I mean running PCs bought like 10 or 15 years ago. All kinds of smokes, particles, dust, etc. would send their FPS even lower. For example, PGI removed the daylight cycle from the game a few years ago to cater such players.

2) I can imagine some "competetive players" setting the lowest level of visual details, editing the config file AND using special settings of their monitor to remove that smoke ... thus rendering such consumable effectively meaningless. Even worse, it would give other players false impression of being safely hidden in the cloud of smoke, while actually being clearly visible to such "competetive players".

[KursedVixen]

Abaddun, on 07 December 2023 - 03:54 AM, said:

I wanted to raise a discussion about a way to play around a the sniper meta, a particular gripe that seems to consistently rear it's ugly head in forum posts. I'm not going to get into the merits or foibles of that playstyle, but I wanted to raise the discussion of implementing smokescreen as a consumable to soft counter such a playstyle.

I must confess, I don't like consumables, I haven't liked them since their release, but I see it as the ideal vehicle to implement such a mechanic, though given creative control I would have made consumables 0CB a long time ago, but that is an argument for another day. I also don't know how feasible it will be to code it into the game, as I am aware that MWO does not have the luxury of developer time at the moment.

But should it be implemented I imagine it would create a wall of smoke and chaff on a section of map approx 150m in front of the deploying mech or the closest flat section section not obstructed be terrain.

The wall would be around of a sufficient size and height to obscure at least two large mechs standing side by side and be thin enough that a mech could not just stand inside it.

The wall would provide complete obstruction to line of sight and sensor lock on, however it shall not block shots or disable the hit notification. If not too complex to code, the chaff could make the smoke appear "fuzzy" in HV, hot mechs would present a more defined outline whilst cold ones would be masked.

Deployment of smoke screen puts all other mechs on the team on a cooldown for 30-40 seconds like artillery and each smoke wall should last for approx 30 seconds, in effect allowing for a coordinated team to deploy "Rolling smoke" I can imagine a team push behind smoke being quite a spectacle in competitive games.

How does the rest of the community feels about this; good, bad, maybe?

i think the smoke should also work as chaff/flare temporarily preventing missile lock. but not streaks just Lrms and ATM,s from beyond a certain distance. but the wall is only one directional so anything behind the wall cannot be locked on by longer range missiles.

Athom83, on 07 December 2023 - 07:42 AM, said:

OR, they can do a mechanical addition and add ammo switching to the game; which would give LRMs and SRMs a smoke warhead. That said, the standard munition for quite a few weapons in game would be nerfed as a result as they currently already do what alternate ammos are supposed to be for.

ammo switching is never coming.

Bud Crue, on 07 December 2023 - 05:08 AM, said:

Regardless of the potential merits of a smokescreen and its impact on the sniper meta, I can only imagine how the particle effects of a smokescreen would tank performance of many user's PCs, to the point of making the game unplayable. And if those effects could be minimized via some sort of setting or config adjustment then the whole exercise would be rendered moot pretty quickly.

just a modified red smoke thing, like they already have. not to mention the smoke on various maps.

Edited by KursedVixen, 07 December 2023 - 08:16 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

If the smoke wasn't a particle effect but a texture (like in very old games), it shouldn't have the same kind of performance impact but it would be hard to make even a series of polygonal textures look like realistic smoke.

Now, an ECM jammer as a deployable consumable could be useful if it was better than ecm or bap.

[pbiggz]

TheCaptainJZ, on 07 December 2023 - 09:12 AM, said:

If the smoke wasn't a particle effect but a texture (like in very old games), it shouldn't have the same kind of performance impact but it would be hard to make even a series of polygonal textures look like realistic smoke.

Now, an ECM jammer as a deployable consumable could be useful if it was better than ecm or bap.

We desperately need more equipment, and not just stuff from BT canon, we should be getting weird stuff just for mechwarrior. Whatever tools and tricks are needed to give the game the flavour and texture it's been lacking.

Regarding the "sniper meta" however; like the "dominance" of light mechs, sniper performance is often overstated. A good sniper can be pretty terrifying but figuring out how to close the gap and challenge one outside of its effective range is effectively figuring out how to get free kills because snipers are useless unless they engage you on their own terms.

Midrange is, as it has been for a long time now, king of the meta.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Make smoke cut incoming laser fire damage and chaff... missiles hardly need more counters. SRMs and MRMs probably wouldn't suffer too bad but the others would feel it.

Laser hitting smoke screen suffers rapid dropoff as if past optimal. Turn on thermal by default and make it invisible, wonder why your lasers suddenly suck.

Edited by the check engine light, 07 December 2023 - 01:46 PM.

[LordNothing]

well my consumable wishlist:

sensor/ew (buffed by uav nodes):
drone - uav that moves in the direction of release until either shot down or reaching the edge of the map.
sat scan - quickly scans the whole map (same feature from fp phase 3)
chaff - scatters radar beams and creates an aoe ecm bubble for a period of time.
transponder - creates a false mech contact on enemy sensors.
flare - used to illuminate the battlefield and extends range of vision modes, may also divert missiles if timed right.
emp - aoe version of ppc disruption, breaks all stealth and ecm and no signal radar in radius for a time.
area denial target - lockable target for missiles. when locked on to it missiles get more spread and an aoe effect.

strike/offensive (buffed by strike nodes):
deployable turret - drops a turret on the ground which can shoot the enemy, until destroyed or timeout.
e-pod - creates an aoe explosion around your mech (does not harm you) for when lights get too close.
tank - calls in an air drop of a pet tank, same as turret except mobile.
vtol - calls in a chopper, same as tank but it flies.
mine - drops an explodie mine that will detonate when an enemy walks over it.
napalm - creates an aoe cloud of heat, saturates heat sinks but produces no damage.

heat management (buffed by cool shot nodes):
coolant bomb - when used on friendly units, increases their heat dissipation.
fire extinguisher - counters incoming flamer or environmental heat for a few seconds.
flash suppressor - ballistics run cooler for a short period of time.

other (buff nodes if specified):
jump pack - single use jump jet (buffed by jump nodes).
overdrive - disposable masc, works for a time (buffed indirectly through speed tweak nodes)
smokescreen - hides mech and reduces laser damage on beams that pass through it.
field repair kit - adds 10 points of armor to open components (effected by armor buffs).
ammo drop - air drop an ammo crate that players can use to reload a portion of their ammo (buffed by ammo nodes).
ammo ejector - if installed, ammo explosions instead eject ammo in the affected sections (case rules apply).
ams hack - converts ams/lams into a mg/spl turret. lock required. lams will lose health over time until it crits out.
explosive narc - converts narc into aoe grenade launcher (narc nodes increase area and yield).
tag amplifier - makes tag a continuous beam laser, small laser dps and heat but tag range.

last 3 are useful to make missile support equipment useful in situations where there are no missiles so as to promote their use. they are not reversible.

some of the weaker items may contain multiple shots, like flares, chaff, emp, etc. ammo ejector is automatic and can only be used once (if any ammo survives its function). field repair kit would shut down your mech while it is applied and restart you when complete. ammo drop might require a manual shutdown near the crate to collect ammo and autostarts when complete. in either case youre a sitting duck.

might also come with a couple more consumable slot nodes in the skill tree. if only a small subset are implemented it would be an improvement to the current system.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 December 2023 - 02:42 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Color code strike smoke so dumdums don't give you tons of FF damage (or at least don't have an excuse)

Defensive consumables would actually be an interesting option even though I hate consumables.

Edited by the check engine light, 07 December 2023 - 02:18 PM.

[LordNothing]

the check engine light, on 07 December 2023 - 02:17 PM, said:

Color code strike smoke so dumdums don't give you tons of FF damage (or at least don't have an excuse)

Defensive consumables would actually be an interesting option even though I hate consumables.

oh ive wanted this for soooo long. and distinct smoke for strike/arty.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 December 2023 - 02:43 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Pointless because user config can remove all particles and there isn't any indication that will be changed as per the dev response to geeram's config. They removed a set of maps and redid another instead to fix the issue so that apparently is that.

[pbiggz]

a thought; i'd rather see equipment than consumables. Consumables don't occupy tonnage, so they don't have an alpha-reducing effect. Also, the ongoing cost of running them is essentially a tax/money sink for C-bills and otherwise, a cash grab for MC.

I don't like that. Make it equipment.

[LordNothing]

the weird thing about money sinks is that gxp, mc, cbills, and even gsp and premium time are starting to pile up far beyond my ability to use it. expect another currency soon. f2ps always swap currencies to mangle people's stockpiles. being able to buy stuff with those would be nice though. of course some consumables might be a lot cheaper. like a decoy or area denial target probibly only costs a couple thousand, as its really just a transmitter and a battery and doesn't require an aerotech on stand by or an arty unit somewhere off map.

im fine with equipment too (flare/chaff dispensers would be a good manual alternative to ams and would use ammo like any other weapon). some stuff lends itself to consumables though, like decoys and mines. otherwise players would spam them. you make strikes an ammo weapon and lets see how that goes. people would load 100 tonners with 'em.

something like the epod could be equipment, but could only be equipped to legs, limiting you to 4 shots (or 2 if you make it 2-slot). other equipment have sectional requirements. of course then somone would equip in on their locust legs and run into an enemy formation boom boom boom boom. that might bring lights back. command consoles have class limits, so you could probibly make them only useful on heavies and assaults, but you could give the lights some buffs as they would have a soft counter.

generally having more stuff to stick in ams and ecm hardpoints would be awesome. one of the reasons i want aecm is so i have a choice of what to mount. but an emp grenade launcher also works. take it a step further i wouldnt mind being able to swap sensors, gyro and other components that are usually fixed.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 December 2023 - 11:25 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 09 December 2023 - 10:48 AM, said:

some stuff lends itself to consumables though, like decoys and mines. otherwise players would spam them

Ideally this would be hardpoints or like MW4 where only some mechs have the ability to click the button to add that equipment. Limitations on how you can customize your mech is essential to mech diversity. HSL and ghost heat somewhat achieve this....somewhat

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 December 2023 - 11:52 AM.

[pbiggz]

Having an airstrike module be a single shot module that you can load no more than one of on each mech would i think make it fill the same niche it fills now, in fact, it'd be a nerf effectively as it would add a tonnage cost.

Agreed loading up a million on a hundred tonner would be a problematic thing. I just dont think its hard to resolve that issue.