13 replies to this topic

[DavidStarr]

Hi! Please share your high alpha builds (that don't suck overall).
Thank you

[Void Angel]

I think my favorite high-alpha build is my Fafnir; Double-tap the UACs for a 100-point near-pinpoint alpha. There are higher alphas out there, but I think all of them require lasers and/or Clantech. GrimmMech's also has a lot of high-alpha builds available for perusal.

[DavidStarr]

I don't see how I could sort or search by alpha in the database.
Side note: I can confirm their suggested builds are very good. Even if they don't seem that good on paper at a first glance. I wish they would publish guides for more chassis.

Edited by DavidStarr, 18 December 2023 - 07:05 AM.

[Ignatius Audene]

https://mwo.nav-alph...02d8afb9_MAD-4A

Functional alpha u are looking for heavy large +ermeds or binary + ermeds. Clan side hag combos + laser are an option. Missle or double tap dmg is just not reliable enough.

[DavidStarr]

Wow, that's a hard-hitter if I ever seen one. Have to grind the C-Bills for the 4A now. Thanks!

Why is the splash from >1 sec laser beam duration considered more reliable than splash from double-tap or SRMs?

Edited by DavidStarr, 23 December 2023 - 07:43 AM.

[Void Angel]

Well, the SRMs spread a lot by nature. Double-tapping your lasers (i.e. firing them 0.5sec apart to avoid heat scale penalties) essentially adds more than half a second to your burn time. This makes your damage is less effective, because your target has more time to twist and evade; it also makes your survivability lower, because you cannot twist and evade while staring at your target waiting for lasers to burn. That extra half-second (and in practice it's more) can make the difference, between a good trade and some Thunderbolt hammering you with 3 Heavy PPCs.

It's a trade-off. As an extreme example: while that MAD-4A does pretty impressive damage in a single focused burst, a Stone Rhino like This One can double-tap for significantly higher damage. But it's generally better to accept a lower alpha and work within the heat scale limits - that Stone Rhino is one hasty mouseclick away from melting down into commemorative ingots.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 December 2023 - 01:37 PM.

[DavidStarr]

On a whim, and without really knowing what I'm doing, I just built this TBR-A. Just because I used to love TBR a lot, but that was like 7 years ago, and now it feels weak. And let me tell you, this one is not weak! First battle I got 4 kills 10 components destroyed. Usually I get no kills, only KMDDs.

[DavidStarr]

Void Angel, on 23 December 2023 - 11:28 AM, said:

That extra half-second (and in practice it's more) can make the difference, between a good trade and some Thunderbolt hammering you with 3 Heavy PPCs.

Appreciate the explanation. And wow, that TDR-9S means business! Thanks for sharing the loadout, guess I have to buy this variant as well.
Is there any other heavy that is as good or better at boating heavy PPCs? Just because I have two TDRs already (but at least they're on sale now!).

Edited by DavidStarr, 23 December 2023 - 12:14 PM.

[Void Angel]

OK, first off, you're not using ECM. This is a mistake, but that's a ton of firepower! Nevertheless, you're vulnerable if someone presses you. You basically have one alpha, and then you have to shutdown. Doing a rough analysis, your build's total alpha heat is 77.2, while its heat capacity is only 56.5. Of course, you have to stagger the Heavy Large Lasers to avoid the heat scale penalties - otherwise, your total heat load will be 107.34. Your cooling per second is a very respectable 4.60, but that'll still take 12.28 seconds to dissipate all that heat. This is why you're only getting KMDDs. Many words to follow, but...

Spoiler

You've gotten into a build trap here, because Clan lasers are too light. Specifically, in order to put in lasers that agree in range and burn time (which is good,) you could not simply add Heavy Large up to the HSL and then fill in with 6 ERMLs. Clan Large Lasers don't weigh enough, and the Heavy Large is balanced in part by taking up a lot of space. There simply isn't a laser that will agree with your HLLs range, avoid HSL penalties, and still weigh enough to use all your tonnage. Best I could do is This Build, which gives you enough endurance to fight back if your position is being threatened, while maintaining the same sustainable damage with a dramatically reduced alpha boomstick.

You are, however, on the right track! This is one of the 'mechs responsible for last patch's Clan Double Heat Sink nerf. The Timberwolf is one of the most powerful Heavy 'mechs in the game, largely because of its ability to laser trade while maintaining fair mobility. The thing runs like an Inner Sphere combat Medium, while boating a powerful array of lasers. You're also using your heat capacity, which is a good thing - running too cool is usually a build defect, because of an opportunity cost in potential damage. However, you've gone a bit too much in the opposite direction - you're paying an opportunity cost in damage (and survivability) due to excessive heat. In other words, the next best thing you could have done (the opportunity cost,) is to paradoxically take fewer lasers in exchange for heat-effective weapons.

TL/DR: You've properly identified a strong Timberwolf build; you just started with the wrong big laser. =] Try This Monster. It doesn't alpha as hard, but it does it much more often, and you have ECM to avoid popping up on sensors inside a red rectangle every time someone looks at you.

PS: Something I accidentally composed out of my last response - but it's very important. The biggest reason that builds and weapons which spread damage (either organically like lasers and RACs, or intrinsically like LB-Xs and SRMs) are considered to be less desirable is that effective damage is not the same as raw damage. At its most basic level, MWO is a game of competitive attrition; you will take damage at some point. It's your goal to deal your own damage at a favorable ratio, and a big part of that is disabling enemy 'mechs.

Sometimes you can just hammer their center torso and brute-force the kill, but you can't always get - and do not always want - that CT shot. For a variety of reasons, targets often have side torso and limb components weakened before their CT - and it is nearly always a good idea to target those open components. Losing a side torso on a Clan XL, or a Light Fusion Engine, imposes a significant heat and movement penalty, for example, and many builds will lose a significant portion of their firepower if a side torso goes down. This all effectively combines into one simple principle: all damage has an effect, but the most effective damage is that which is placed where you want it to go.

DavidStarr, on 23 December 2023 - 12:08 PM, said:

Appreciate the explanation. And wow, that TDR-9S means business! Thanks for sharing the loadout, guess I have to buy this variant as well. Is there any other heavy that is as good or better at boating heavy PPCs? Just because I have two TDRs already (but at least they're on sale now!).

Oooh, which ones do you have?

Also, let me check my notes on other HPPC builds... It's actually a rare weapon, because of the massive heat constraints. I'm only getting away with it because of that -10% heat Quirk. And the HSL quirk too, of course.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 December 2023 - 01:39 PM.

[Void Angel]

OK, the Heavies on GrimMechs (I only have the one Heavy that I boat, because of its quirks.) You have two THREE (wording is hard) good options: the Grasshopper, Warhammer, and the Crusader. None of them have the HSL quirk, so they either boat 2 with backups, or rely on staggered fire, and support their builds with XL Engines - but they have jump jets to compensate. Of the two, I'd take the Crusader 6T, as it's a top-tier chassis with good hit boxes, but the Warhammer 4L is an excellent, top-tier 'mech as well.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 December 2023 - 03:01 PM.

[DavidStarr]

I very much appreciate your in-depth response. I want to learn the process and the right considerations for building strong mechs, because I feel that the ones I make myself are pretty good, like B tier, but not S tier and probably not even A. And sometimes small changes make more difference that I would expect. Like with ECM on that TBR-A build - I don't love not putting it on, but I considered an extra heatsink more important. Maybe it was a mistake.
I started with LPLs, but the HLL is so much more alpha - I knew that for max alpha I need HLL and there's no substitute. I also decided that I can't leave any energy hardpoints unpopulated, that would be a half-assed attempt.

Actually, it's not as bad as MechDB numbers make it look, with max skills it does alpha once without overheating (with stagger, of course). After one alpha it can repeat a half-alpha quickly (in just a couple seconds), and then either coolshot or hide for a bit. Is there a tool for simulating loadouts with skills?

And I meant to say that my usual builds are more DPS-focused and don't often get kills. This one absolutely does get kills!
The most kills I ever got in one match was 7, and it happened just a few days ago (at about 1000 hours played in MWO). I don't recall which mech it was, but it was a build from Grimmechs' tier list that also has a pretty high alpha. That's what got me interested in this concept, since it obviously does work well (if, as you point out, you take care to not wander off alone, because then any brawler will eat you).

My Thunderbolts are 5SS and 9SE. I bought the 5SS when I found this build, and the 9SE has been sitting in the garage for years - I don't know what to do with it, any advice is very welcome!

Edited by DavidStarr, 23 December 2023 - 03:11 PM.

[Void Angel]

Oooh, so close to your Ace of Spades! But you'll get there; GrimMech's will help. Their builds aren't necessarily what's right for you (you'll see many more LRMs, for example, so AMS may be wise) but they are always an excellent starting point for 'mech builds, and a good showcase of the principles of optimized 'mech design.

(I figured that was your process with the ECM. Thing is, ECM got nerfed last patch, and for good reason. It's long provided the best benefit for the space and tonnage of anything in MWO. That's why it's hard-locked to certain chassis (or omnipods) - it has to be, because the chassis or pod's other abilities are balanced around it.)

[ScrapIron Prime]

DavidStarr, on 23 December 2023 - 03:08 PM, said:

My Thunderbolts are 5SS and 9SE. I bought the 5SS when I found this build, and the 9SE has been sitting in the garage for years - I don't know what to do with it, any advice is very welcome!

I don't use the 9SE much either. But its quirked for large pulse lasers, so I've got it doing this:

https://mwo.nav-alph...74aba1f_TDR-9SE

[Void Angel]

Yeah, that's about the size of it these days. I do love my 10SE, with ECM, MASC, and 3xPPCs, but most of my thunderbolts feel like there's something else out there that does it better - the 9SE v. the Timber Wolf is a great example.

The one thing Thunderbolts DO still do well is spread damage, though. That boxy architecture is great for spreading damage if you torso twist, jump, and/or turn your 'mech. When Faction Warfare was still going strong, the Clans would actually leg thunderbolts to death like a Light, because it took so much damage to break through their center torsos. =] Alas, time to kill is such these days that people just brute force it, but it's still a very tough 'mech for its tonnage (now if only we could get the structure quirks changed to armor...)