91 replies to this topic

[Abisha]

People that use a Variety of weapons should be rewarded.

for example if you fit a laser, ballistic and a missile ammo should be bit more then for (full x weapons)

also this whole ammo crates is bit stupid (missiles have more ammo then AC5 rounds) per Tonnage?
have you look how large a missiles is?


in this game a Ammo clips takes more space then rocket launcher.....

[martian]

Abisha, on 18 December 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

People that use a Variety of weapons should be rewarded.

for example if you fit a laser, ballistic and a missile ammo should be bit more then for (full x weapons)

Why should be running "a Variety of weapons" considered to be better or more valuable than running one or two types of weapons?

Abisha, on 18 December 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

also this whole ammo crates is bit stupid (missiles have more ammo then AC5 rounds) per Tonnage?
have you look how large a missiles is?

in this game a Ammo clips takes more space then rocket launcher.....

Gameplay reasons are more important than realism.

Also, SRMs, MRMs and LRMs are described to be smaller than you would think.

Edited by martian, 18 December 2023 - 11:47 PM.

[Abisha]

might be described to be smaller i still see a 1.5 meters rocket being fired.....

[Meep Meep]

Running mixed loadouts isn't an issue for ammo. You take multi tons for a dakka or lrm spam build that has multiple of the same type of weapon because so many weapons are dipping into the same ammo bin. But for multi weapon setups you only need enough ammo so the combined potential damage is the same as the other weapons. In general running multiple weapon types isn't optimal but some mechs have specific quirks and hardpoints that make them viable.

[Horseman]

Abisha, on 18 December 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

in this game a Ammo clips takes more space then rocket launcher.....

The ammo does not represent a "clip" or a collection thereof, but a one ton bin feeding either high-calliber bullets, autocannon munitions (remember, ACs are more along the lines of tank cannons than infantry-portable rifles) or individual missiles. The rocket launchers are not single rockets in a tube either but something akin to a Metal Storm launcher.
Remember that in tabletop, one ton of armor is 16 points. Thus, the humble machine gun shreds 125 kilograms of armor in 30 seconds while a rocket launcher 10 shreds 625 kilograms of armor in one shot.

[aardappelianen]

i don't think ammo is much of a problem however i do think weapon variety should be rewarded.
juggling weapons with different cooldowns and velocities is hard and objectively stupid in this game because laser are just so easy to use

you build a mech with with laser vomit and jumpjets and you're good for every map and every team comp, just rinse and repeat until you're tier 1

there should a huge bonus to putting ammo actually in the weapons and not have left arm reload from right foot.
and a bonus to agility if the mech is actually balanced, so a mech with 40% of its mass mounted on 1 left torso doesn't move so well.

[pbiggz]

You cant really do this. This game rewards damage, and it rewards kills. The best way to get that reward is consistency, and the best way to get consistency is boating; one type of weapon, with predictable performance that can be used the same way every time.

The way you resolve this problem is hardpoint deflation and hardpoint sizing; forcing players to take fewer and larger weapons, and basically structurally eliminating boating, by preventing players from fitting those weapons onto a single mech. This is not a simple or easy solution. Adjustments would have to be made to accommodate for this. There would be severe pushback. I doubt it will ever happen.

Edited by pbiggz, 19 December 2023 - 07:31 AM.

[martian]

aardappelianen, on 19 December 2023 - 06:50 AM, said:

i don't think ammo is much of a problem however i do think weapon variety should be rewarded.
juggling weapons with different cooldowns and velocities is hard and objectively stupid in this game because laser are just so easy to use

There is no reason for rewarding inefficient and clumsy loadouts.

You have got Pilot Skill Rating: Run any loadout you wish and let PSR do its job. Eventually, PSR will move you to the most appropriate Tier for you where you will meet other players who run loadouts similar to yours. No special reward needed.

aardappelianen, on 19 December 2023 - 06:50 AM, said:

you build a mech with with laser vomit and jumpjets and you're good for every map and every team comp, just rinse and repeat until you're tier 1

This is not so simple. You can give some low-skilled player exactly that same 'Mech that a top T1 player uses ... and it is quite possible that the aforementioned T5 player will stay in his T5, no matter how he tries.

aardappelianen, on 19 December 2023 - 06:50 AM, said:

there should a huge bonus to putting ammo actually in the weapons and not have left arm reload from right foot.
and a bonus to agility if the mech is actually balanced, so a mech with 40% of its mass mounted on 1 left torso doesn't move so well.

Some official 'Mechs have exactly such arrangement.

[crazytimes]

Rewarded how?

*You performed poorly in a badly designed mech, so you get given... " What? What are people supposed to get for deliberately being bad? More c-bills so they can build a better mech?

[Abisha]

crazytimes, on 19 December 2023 - 11:44 AM, said:

Rewarded how?

*You performed poorly in a badly designed mech, so you get given... " What? What are people supposed to get for deliberately being bad? More c-bills so they can build a better mech?

unlike you people that have K/D higher then 1 that like to use multi variation of weapon systems
without worry about ammo.

yea, yea go duel put "weapon here" ain't good enough.

[Gas Guzzler]

How about your first 3000 damage of the day per each weapon type nets you extra C-bills/XP instead? Therefore you don't have to gimp yourself to be rewarded.

[SolCrusher]

well this games needs something to encourage diverse weapons.....

[Breaktime]

Just my take, but I both disagree and, after doing a lot of mech experimentation, this is a piloting issue. I don't mean 'get gud'. I mean, the reason combining weapons doesn't work as well as using the same is because of piloting. I have a couple variety builds and they are really weird to use.

For example, let's say I have some lasers and an MRM, and I alpha everything off at a moving target that is kinda far away. Will it all hit? No. It litreally cannot. If I aim directly at the target, my lasers hit, but my MRM, which need to account for travel, will miss because I didn't lead my target. So one one hand, just don't fire everything like that. On the other hand, the mech is weaker at peeking and falling back to cover because you can only use some of your weapons at once. By increasing my options, I'm also limiting my options.

Using a variety of weapons, I would have to transition between aiming techniques in rapid succession to fire all my weapons. That's really hard to do and often results in a drop in DPS and many missed shots. I can do two weapon types, firing one while the other is on cooldown, but 3 distinct weapon types is too many for me. My fire rate slows down as have to adjust my aim, and I miss a lot.

A jack of all trades mech makes more sense when a pilot has surplus tonnage and a need for specialized tools. If heat dissipation were more limited and mechs carrying way more weapons than they can fire, weapon variety would be more common.

Edited by Breaktime, 19 December 2023 - 02:36 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Abisha, on 18 December 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

People that use a Variety of weapons should be rewarded.

Seriously, why?

[crazytimes]

Abisha, on 19 December 2023 - 12:23 PM, said:

unlike you people that have K/D higher then 1 that like to use multi variation of weapon systems
without worry about ammo.

yea, yea go duel put "weapon here" ain't good enough.

I... Have no idea what your little KD rant is about.

You still haven't articulated*how* people should be rewarded? With what? A cheeky hand shandy? A gold stamp?

[aardappelianen]

yeah i understood rewarded as be fun to play, sorry about that.
i was implying there should be some counter boating system that rewards you with better perfoming weapons of a type when you dont boat them or when you sandwich them with ammo or heatsinks.

i would really like all quirks be purged and the skill tree to be rebuild so that we can build every mech to do whatever we want instead of being told wich mechs are validated for certain builds by their quirks

Edited by aardappelianen, 19 December 2023 - 05:36 PM.

[Bud Crue]

aardappelianen, on 19 December 2023 - 05:30 PM, said:

i would really like all quirks be purged and the skill tree to be rebuild so that we can build every mech to do whatever we want instead of being told wich mechs are validated for certain builds by their quirks

Take away quirks and you make a whole lot of mechs utterly pointless to play/purchase. There's just too many mechs within the same classes that have the same number and type of hard points (sometimes within the same chassis! e.g., Grasshoppers, Blacknights, etc.) such that without quirks there would be no incentive to play one over the other, and in many cases one variant has superior hard point locations over the other, making one default superior over the other without quirks to differentiate them (e.g., Grasshopper 5P vs 5N). If anything we need more quirks and more substantial quirks to give dross variants at least some sort of playable niche.

[Abisha]

like i said reward in bit more ammo

say you fit 3 type of weapons the first 2 or 3 ammo tonnage get 10% or 20% more ammo after that (4) is just normal
so that encourage builds

so 1 laser, 2 ballistic (first 2 ammo cans 20%) missiles (first ammo cans 20%) that's it.

[Gasboy]

SolCrusher, on 19 December 2023 - 01:19 PM, said:

well this games needs something to encourage diverse weapons.....

Why?

[Gasboy]

Abisha, on 18 December 2023 - 10:48 PM, said:

People that use a Variety of weapons should be rewarded.

Why?

Quote

for example if you fit a laser, ballistic and a missile ammo should be bit more then for (full x weapons)

also this whole ammo crates is bit stupid (missiles have more ammo then AC5 rounds) per Tonnage?
have you look how large a missiles is?

Yes, I've seen them frequently bouncing off my mech when LRM boat pilots don't realize I'm too close for their missiles to arm. Missiles in MWO are tiny. While machinegun ammo is much smaller, AC ammo is almost comparable to the missiles in size.

Edited by Gasboy, 19 December 2023 - 10:26 PM.