111 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

Surprised to see the dislike for Hellbore and new HPG. They are both good maps. NASCAR is awful, and when a team attempts to start it, they deserve to smash into the awaiting firing line. Both Hellbore and HPG provide good ways to stop rotation from developing, so they are a win in my books. The no man's land areas are not really the fault of designers, moreso players who don't want anything more than to spin about a landmark.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

RickySpanish, on 23 December 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

Surprised to see the dislike for Hellbore and new HPG. They are both good maps. NASCAR is awful, and when a team attempts to start it, they deserve to smash into the awaiting firing line. Both Hellbore and HPG provide good ways to stop rotation from developing, so they are a win in my books. The no man's land areas are not really the fault of designers, moreso players who don't want anything more than to spin about a landmark.

I like Hellebore, hate HPG.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RickySpanish, on 23 December 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

The no man's land areas are not really the fault of designers, moreso players who don't want anything more than to spin about a landmark.

They are by definition the fault of bad design. If we really just want to dispense with the illusion of choice though be my guest, just give us a rectangular flat map. Sorry, but NASCAR is typically an artifact of maps that allow options, being able to rotate is important for maps to provide variety of play even if it does cause some people to potato and NASCAR.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 December 2023 - 05:21 PM.

[martian]

the check engine light, on 23 December 2023 - 02:19 PM, said:

I like Hellebore, hate HPG.

One half of the Hellebore Outpost map is passable, but the other half of the map - that pointless network of canyons where anybody rarely goes - is absolutely unused in 99% of my games.

[MrMadguy]

RickySpanish, on 23 December 2023 - 12:44 PM, said:

Surprised to see the dislike for Hellbore and new HPG. They are both good maps. NASCAR is awful, and when a team attempts to start it, they deserve to smash into the awaiting firing line. Both Hellbore and HPG provide good ways to stop rotation from developing, so they are a win in my books. The no man's land areas are not really the fault of designers, moreso players who don't want anything more than to spin about a landmark.

New HPG is worse because of sniping from walls. Hellbore? Just too big and too hard navigation. What players also hate - is when fight is already happens at some spot on a map, but it's way too hard to get there, if you don't have JJs. Players like to able able to support their teammates, when it's needed. They don't like to be forced to always use deathball tactic.

It's very simple. Canyon network is just perfect. It's MWO's version of de_dust. Players just don't need anything else.

[MechB Kotare]

MrMadguy, on 24 December 2023 - 04:04 AM, said:

It's very simple. Canyon network is just perfect. It's MWO's version of de_dust. Players just don't need anything else.

Yes. Canyon Network is the best map in the game.

[martian]

MrMadguy, on 24 December 2023 - 04:04 AM, said:

It's very simple. Canyon network is just perfect. It's MWO's version of de_dust. Players just don't need anything else.

It gets old after a while (about three times in a row).

[Mechwarrior2342356]

martian, on 24 December 2023 - 06:46 AM, said:

It gets old after a while (about three times in a row).

Map repetition is awful and if there's a way to guarantee I don't see a map twice in a row I want to explore that possibility even if it means not getting Bog on repeat and occasionally seeing Alpine.

martian, on 24 December 2023 - 01:55 AM, said:

One half of the Hellebore Outpost map is passable, but the other half of the map - that pointless network of canyons where anybody rarely goes - is absolutely unused in 99% of my games.

Kind of a shame because I love how pretty that map is in totality and have gone exploring a bit in training grounds just to look at all the details.

Terra Therma has neat details that practically never get seen largely due to modes.

Edited by the check engine light, 24 December 2023 - 07:44 AM.

[East Indy]

If map selection went back to random, a useful feature would be tracking map activity to increase variety.

Each time a player or their group plays a map, the map gets a point on the backend. A map's tally for a given player is reset every 5 matches that player completes. When the matchmaker selects its solos and groups, it checks tallies and selects from a set number of maps with the lowest totals, and the random winner is the map of the match.

[RickySpanish]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 December 2023 - 05:19 PM, said:

They are by definition the fault of bad design. If we really just want to dispense with the illusion of choice though be my guest, just give us a rectangular flat map. Sorry, but NASCAR is typically an artifact of maps that allow options, being able to rotate is important for maps to provide variety of play even if it does cause some people to potato and NASCAR.

Rotato potato is entirely the choice of players to be fools, there's no need to design maps to further encourage the blind stupidity. You have movement options on HPG and Hellbore, and on all maps. You just get punished for obviously dumb choices on some maps harder than others. E.g. Rotato potato on HPG? Enjoy turning into the wall snipers. Spin to win on Hellbore? Down you go then.

MrMadguy, on 24 December 2023 - 04:04 AM, said:

New HPG is worse because of sniping from walls. Hellbore? Just too big and too hard navigation. What players also hate - is when fight is already happens at some spot on a map, but it's way too hard to get there, if you don't have JJs. Players like to able able to support their teammates, when it's needed. They don't like to be forced to always use deathball tactic.

It's very simple. Canyon network is just perfect. It's MWO's version of de_dust. Players just don't need anything else.

You know what works though? Learning the layout of the map! It's available in training grounds... Though I do wish spawn points would mirror game mode there, and that the mode was selectable.

Canyon is OK, but best map? No, Rubelite is the best map.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:55 AM, said:

Rotato potato is entirely the choice of players to be fools, there's no need to design maps to further encourage the blind stupidity. You have movement options on HPG and Hellbore, and on all maps. You just get punished for obviously dumb choices on some maps harder than others. E.g. Rotato potato on HPG? Enjoy turning into the wall snipers. Spin to win on Hellbore? Down you go then.

People crowd some of the better cover options and wallsnipers that pick around the rim can chase people around (and even the guys with long range stuff will usually opt to hide instead of attempting to return fire). Meanwhile the rest of their team kind of gradually rolls over the huddlers with relative impunity especially if a peeker gets wasted or a sniper hits a jackpot and starts a snowball. Then there's the idiot "early basement rush" play that inevitably creates a ducks in a barrel situation as peekers once again get picked off while nobody inside can effectively retaliate because basement ******* sucks. There's too much cover on the rim and not enough paths up from the inside to make it risky, even before player behavior comes in.

Edited by the check engine light, 24 December 2023 - 11:02 AM.

[LordNothing]

just open the middle a bit, put some more central access routes and move the overpass ramps back so they aren't blocking the chokepoints. encourage more use of the vertical space.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 December 2023 - 11:15 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

Rotato potato is entirely the choice of players to be fools.

I mean it comes down to trust, do I trust my team to cover my off angles and the answer is almost always no. Holding strong positions generally requires some level of teamwork and trust and you aren't going to find that in PUGs. Not to mention people don't have similar builds and people see brawlers rotating on the minimap and that doesn't help (if half your team is brawlers and don't have guns online, yeah that contributes to nascar).

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

there's no need to design maps to further encourage the blind stupidity.

Or just have better maps so that you can cut in on rotations. The biggest issue is that the maps were never designed with any of that in mind. A lot of the maps started with DOTA style 3 lane designs. Counterstrike has 3 lanes but it also has multiple rotation points that you can use to swap between lanes (generally from both "sides") as well as stretching teams between at least two points to attack/defend on opposite lanes.

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

E.g. Rotato potato on HPG? Enjoy turning into the wall snipers. Spin to win on Hellbore? Down you go then.

Which contributes to boring maps with boring options. Wall snipers as well help contribute to the general populace's feeling of sniping being too strong, much like every other bowl designed map and probably why every single one of them scored low on the poll. They are bad maps, old HPG honestly was better, the biggest issue with it in pugs was the opposite side really need a ramp and basement needed to be shrunk so that it discouraged hiding there while still allowing brawl teams to leverage it to approach with better cover.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 December 2023 - 08:09 PM.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 24 December 2023 - 06:46 AM, said:

It gets old after a while (about three times in a row).

Does de_dust get old with time? No. I don't want to play bad maps just for sake of diversity. Some "below perfect" and "above average" maps are ok. But just not bad.

[RickySpanish]

If de_dust is the gold standard by which multiplayer map design is being judged here, then boy am I glad that none of you guys commenting are employed as map designers. And before anyone asks, there are so many games more entertaining to pick from before you even get into individual maps. But off the top of my head, dm_morpheus from Unreal, or q3dm6.

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

Canyon is OK, but best map? No, Rubelite is the best map.

False. Rubelite has many sniping and camping spots, that are inaccessible for brawlers/skirmishers to reach, with need of going all the way around, forcing them to disengage for a longer period of time. Canyon have more ways to approach certain play styles, and has no dominant locations, while rubellite has plenty of them.

In Rubellite, high ground = win, grants you better sight lines over most active parts of the map, while on canyon not as much. Canyons give brawlers chance to slip undetected, while in rubellite, you need to go into the open plenty of times.

Canyon is simply too good for mwo style pvp, its the most balanced map, especially now, with all the ramps added. Before i wouldn't say this, as the old canyon greatly favoured JJ capable mechs.

So yes, Canyon Networks is the best map. Even Mining collective which is almost as popular as canyon doesnt provide such a versatility as Canyon does.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 08:37 AM.

[RickySpanish]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 08:35 AM, said:

False. Rubelite has many sniping and camping spots, that are inaccessible for brawlers/skirmishers to reach, with need of going all the way around, forcing them to disengage for a longer period of time. Canyon have more ways to approach certain play styles, and has no dominant locations, while rubellite has plenty of them.

In Rubellite, high ground = win, grants you better sight lines over most active parts of the map, while on canyon not as much. Canyons give brawlers chance to slip undetected, while in rubellite, you need to go into the open plenty of times.

Canyon is simply too good for mwo style pvp, its the most balanced map, especially now, with all the ramps added. Before i wouldn't say this, as the old canyon greatly favoured JJ capable mechs.

So yes, Canyon Networks is the best map. Even Mining collective which is almost as popular as canyon doesnt provide such a versatility as Canyon does.

Canyon is more open than Rubelite... Brawlers deserve to get wiped out though. Let's be frank here - if your idea of smart play is to rush someone into close range and trade blows, which is what brawling is, you get what's coming. There are LOTs of ways to play close range smartly on Rubelite, but no you can't just be foolish and drop into low ground to rotate until you grow the balls to rejoin the match. Thank goodness.

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 10:17 AM, said:

Canyon is more open than Rubelite...

No its not, thanks to its narrow low ground canyons consisting 60% of the map.

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 10:17 AM, said:

Brawlers deserve to get wiped out though. Let's be frank here - if your idea of smart play is to rush someone into close range and trade blows, which is what brawling is, you get what's coming.

If your perception of solid brawling play consists only of ''rush someone into close range'', and completely ignoring the fact, that in game skill is not determined just by aiming skill, but also by movement and positioning, you completely lack understanding of basic mechanics of this game.

Good brawling is high risk, high reward actually.

If you don't like basics of battletech combat, when a short range weapon should have a damage advantage, but you like only long range engagements, you should probably try another game. Short range brawling should be as much viable as long range sniping, and thus short range brawlers should have as much chances offered (for example through solid map design like Canyon) as long range snipers have.

Brawlers cant just rush someone, because most times they will get killed, especially against coordinated teams. A good brawlers needs situational awareness, sense for patience, and ability to know exactly his/her momentum, aside of proper movement and positioning.

They are also easily focused, if you are being killed by them, that is just a skill issue, whether you like it or not.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 11:04 AM.

[RickySpanish]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 10:48 AM, said:

No its not, thanks to its narrow low ground canyons consisting 60% of the map.


If your perception of solid brawling play consists only of ''rush someone into close range'', and completely ignoring the fact, that in game skill is not determined just by aiming skill, but also by movement and positioning, you completely lack understanding of basic mechanics of this game.

Good brawling is high risk, high reward actually.

If you don't like basics of battletech combat, when a short range weapon should have a damage advantage, but you like only long range engagements, you should probably try another game. Short range brawling should be as much viable as long range sniping, and thus short range brawlers should have as much chances offered (for example through solid map design like Canyon) as long range snipers have.

Brawlers cant just rush someone, because most times they will get killed, especially against coordinated teams. A good brawlers needs situational awareness, sense for patience, and ability to know exactly his/her momentum, aside of proper movement and positioning.

They are also easily focused, if you are being killed by them, that is just a skill issue, whether you like it or not.

Brawling is brain dead, literally the lowest skill tactic. Long range requires much more skill and gets rewarded accordingly.

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 11:26 AM, said:

Brawling is brain dead, literally the lowest skill tactic. Long range requires much more skill and gets rewarded accordingly.

So you have no counter argument, other than ''Brawl sucks, i hate it so noob tactic, what i play is more skilled''.

What a child answer.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 11:46 AM.