94 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

just open the middle a bit, put some more central access routes and move the overpass ramps back so they aren't blocking the chokepoints. encourage more use of the vertical space.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 December 2023 - 11:15 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

Rotato potato is entirely the choice of players to be fools.

I mean it comes down to trust, do I trust my team to cover my off angles and the answer is almost always no. Holding strong positions generally requires some level of teamwork and trust and you aren't going to find that in PUGs. Not to mention people don't have similar builds and people see brawlers rotating on the minimap and that doesn't help (if half your team is brawlers and don't have guns online, yeah that contributes to nascar).

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

there's no need to design maps to further encourage the blind stupidity.

Or just have better maps so that you can cut in on rotations. The biggest issue is that the maps were never designed with any of that in mind. A lot of the maps started with DOTA style 3 lane designs. Counterstrike has 3 lanes but it also has multiple rotation points that you can use to swap between lanes (generally from both "sides") as well as stretching teams between at least two points to attack/defend on opposite lanes.

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

E.g. Rotato potato on HPG? Enjoy turning into the wall snipers. Spin to win on Hellbore? Down you go then.

Which contributes to boring maps with boring options. Wall snipers as well help contribute to the general populace's feeling of sniping being too strong, much like every other bowl designed map and probably why every single one of them scored low on the poll. They are bad maps, old HPG honestly was better, the biggest issue with it in pugs was the opposite side really need a ramp and basement needed to be shrunk so that it discouraged hiding there while still allowing brawl teams to leverage it to approach with better cover.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 December 2023 - 08:09 PM.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 24 December 2023 - 06:46 AM, said:

It gets old after a while (about three times in a row).

Does de_dust get old with time? No. I don't want to play bad maps just for sake of diversity. Some "below perfect" and "above average" maps are ok. But just not bad.

[RickySpanish]

If de_dust is the gold standard by which multiplayer map design is being judged here, then boy am I glad that none of you guys commenting are employed as map designers. And before anyone asks, there are so many games more entertaining to pick from before you even get into individual maps. But off the top of my head, dm_morpheus from Unreal, or q3dm6.

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 24 December 2023 - 10:57 AM, said:

Canyon is OK, but best map? No, Rubelite is the best map.

False. Rubelite has many sniping and camping spots, that are inaccessible for brawlers/skirmishers to reach, with need of going all the way around, forcing them to disengage for a longer period of time. Canyon have more ways to approach certain play styles, and has no dominant locations, while rubellite has plenty of them.

In Rubellite, high ground = win, grants you better sight lines over most active parts of the map, while on canyon not as much. Canyons give brawlers chance to slip undetected, while in rubellite, you need to go into the open plenty of times.

Canyon is simply too good for mwo style pvp, its the most balanced map, especially now, with all the ramps added. Before i wouldn't say this, as the old canyon greatly favoured JJ capable mechs.

So yes, Canyon Networks is the best map. Even Mining collective which is almost as popular as canyon doesnt provide such a versatility as Canyon does.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 08:37 AM.

[RickySpanish]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 08:35 AM, said:

False. Rubelite has many sniping and camping spots, that are inaccessible for brawlers/skirmishers to reach, with need of going all the way around, forcing them to disengage for a longer period of time. Canyon have more ways to approach certain play styles, and has no dominant locations, while rubellite has plenty of them.

In Rubellite, high ground = win, grants you better sight lines over most active parts of the map, while on canyon not as much. Canyons give brawlers chance to slip undetected, while in rubellite, you need to go into the open plenty of times.

Canyon is simply too good for mwo style pvp, its the most balanced map, especially now, with all the ramps added. Before i wouldn't say this, as the old canyon greatly favoured JJ capable mechs.

So yes, Canyon Networks is the best map. Even Mining collective which is almost as popular as canyon doesnt provide such a versatility as Canyon does.

Canyon is more open than Rubelite... Brawlers deserve to get wiped out though. Let's be frank here - if your idea of smart play is to rush someone into close range and trade blows, which is what brawling is, you get what's coming. There are LOTs of ways to play close range smartly on Rubelite, but no you can't just be foolish and drop into low ground to rotate until you grow the balls to rejoin the match. Thank goodness.

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 10:17 AM, said:

Canyon is more open than Rubelite...

No its not, thanks to its narrow low ground canyons consisting 60% of the map.

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 10:17 AM, said:

Brawlers deserve to get wiped out though. Let's be frank here - if your idea of smart play is to rush someone into close range and trade blows, which is what brawling is, you get what's coming.

If your perception of solid brawling play consists only of ''rush someone into close range'', and completely ignoring the fact, that in game skill is not determined just by aiming skill, but also by movement and positioning, you completely lack understanding of basic mechanics of this game.

Good brawling is high risk, high reward actually.

If you don't like basics of battletech combat, when a short range weapon should have a damage advantage, but you like only long range engagements, you should probably try another game. Short range brawling should be as much viable as long range sniping, and thus short range brawlers should have as much chances offered (for example through solid map design like Canyon) as long range snipers have.

Brawlers cant just rush someone, because most times they will get killed, especially against coordinated teams. A good brawlers needs situational awareness, sense for patience, and ability to know exactly his/her momentum, aside of proper movement and positioning.

They are also easily focused, if you are being killed by them, that is just a skill issue, whether you like it or not.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 11:04 AM.

[RickySpanish]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 10:48 AM, said:

No its not, thanks to its narrow low ground canyons consisting 60% of the map.


If your perception of solid brawling play consists only of ''rush someone into close range'', and completely ignoring the fact, that in game skill is not determined just by aiming skill, but also by movement and positioning, you completely lack understanding of basic mechanics of this game.

Good brawling is high risk, high reward actually.

If you don't like basics of battletech combat, when a short range weapon should have a damage advantage, but you like only long range engagements, you should probably try another game. Short range brawling should be as much viable as long range sniping, and thus short range brawlers should have as much chances offered (for example through solid map design like Canyon) as long range snipers have.

Brawlers cant just rush someone, because most times they will get killed, especially against coordinated teams. A good brawlers needs situational awareness, sense for patience, and ability to know exactly his/her momentum, aside of proper movement and positioning.

They are also easily focused, if you are being killed by them, that is just a skill issue, whether you like it or not.

Brawling is brain dead, literally the lowest skill tactic. Long range requires much more skill and gets rewarded accordingly.

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 11:26 AM, said:

Brawling is brain dead, literally the lowest skill tactic. Long range requires much more skill and gets rewarded accordingly.

So you have no counter argument, other than ''Brawl sucks, i hate it so noob tactic, what i play is more skilled''.

What a child answer.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 11:46 AM.

[RickySpanish]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 11:41 AM, said:

So you have no counter argument, other than ''Brawl sucks, i hate it so noob tactic, what i play is more skilled''.

What a child answer.

Counter argument for 'I enjoy running into my opponent and shooting until one of us dies'? I wasn't aware one was needed. I suppose once you hit tier 1 you occasionally you have to twist right?

[MechB Kotare]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 02:22 PM, said:

Counter argument for 'I enjoy running into my opponent and shooting until one of us dies'? I wasn't aware one was needed. I suppose once you hit tier 1 you occasionally you have to twist right?

You sounds like someone who gets killed by brawlers alot. Just because you are bad at the game, doesnt mean that the thing, that is killing you doesnt require skill to do right.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 25 December 2023 - 02:37 PM.

[RickySpanish]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 02:36 PM, said:

You sounds like someone who gets killed by brawlers alot. Just because you are bad at the game, doesnt mean that the thing, that is killing you doesnt require skill to do right.

Impossible; I don't pilot anything slow enough to get caught by a brawler. I am much more likely to get popped by PPCs and gauss rifles, or worn away by blue lasers. That's why I afford those builds and players the respect they deserve.

[foamyesque]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 05:30 PM, said:

Impossible; I don't pilot anything slow enough to get caught by a brawler. I am much more likely to get popped by PPCs and gauss rifles, or worn away by blue lasers. That's why I afford those builds and players the respect they deserve.

A non-trivial number of brawlers are lights and mediums. Pretty sure some of them can catch you even if you're a dedicated light player.

[MrMadguy]

RickySpanish, on 25 December 2023 - 11:26 AM, said:

Brawling is brain dead, literally the lowest skill tactic. Long range requires much more skill and gets rewarded accordingly.

Yeah, it's holy war, but do you really think, that pew-pewing blue lazors from 1k meters, i.e. 100% safety - requires more skill, than going close to enemies, that is extremely risky? Only "invulnerable" Lights can do it easily. But even they rely mostly on luck and noobish enemies. Just one lucky Gauss/PPC shot - and perfect plan goes to trash.

Edited by MrMadguy, 25 December 2023 - 11:05 PM.

[RickySpanish]

Why would you be afraid of a 40 point alpha (45? with splash? Eh who cares) that can only be fired at short range by someone who has in all likelihood, taken those weapons because they don't know how to play a range bracket that requires any sort of tactical prowess? Bonus if it's some goober 'leading the charge' in a King Crab or Fafnir.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechB Kotare, on 25 December 2023 - 11:41 AM, said:

So you have no counter argument, other than ''Brawl sucks, i hate it so noob tactic, what i play is more skilled''.

What a child answer.

To be fair, in coordinated environments, brawl rushes is typically what lesser teams opt for against better teams. However PUGs aren't coordinated and even in dedicated brawls like 4/4/0/0 in the old school MRBC drops, understanding how to brawl was something few knew how to do (there is a difference between knowing how to push and how to brawl, different concepts).

[RickySpanish]

the check engine light, on 26 December 2023 - 08:34 AM, said:

Fear != respect

But get on with your bad self, I completely understand why you think they're synonymous given what else I know of you lmao

also CRD6T = 65pt+10splash with 2SNPPC 10SL, no staggering needed.

What? 65 damage between two weapon types at close range? Boy, that's just sad. It's like, last year's meta bruh. 80 *pinpoint* is the new black. If you are going to do close range lasers then go big or go home. 15 heavy small laser Nova is a lot more spectacular.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

RickySpanish, on 26 December 2023 - 12:55 PM, said:

What? 65 damage between two weapon types at close range? Boy, that's just sad. It's like, last year's meta bruh. 80 *pinpoint* is the new black. If you are going to do close range lasers then go big or go home. 15 heavy small laser Nova is a lot more spectacular.

Wat, maybe if you like 2 seconds of stare time, or you could just do 6 SPL/9 ERmL lasers and do little over half in a third of that time.

[RickySpanish]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 December 2023 - 04:01 PM, said:

Wat, maybe if you like 2 seconds of stare time, or you could just do 6 SPL/9 ERmL lasers and do little over half in a third of that time.

You could do that.

Edited by RickySpanish, 26 December 2023 - 04:16 PM.

[RickySpanish]

the check engine light, on 26 December 2023 - 05:29 PM, said:

You said 40 and you were wrong. Next.

No i wasn't, you said AC20 + snubs in your first post, and then after my reply, changed it to the only slightly less pathetic snubs and small lasers. It's all there if you care to take your finger off the w key for a moment and look.