356 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Saved By The Bell, on 06 January 2024 - 04:07 AM, said:

Why modify HAG, its balanced now.

Not quite, you really don't see it in upper tiers anymore because it just spreads too much compared to the numerous alternatives. It's great for farming and that's about it.

[Meep Meep]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 06 January 2024 - 01:56 PM, said:

Not quite, you really don't see it in upper tiers anymore because it just spreads too much compared to the numerous alternatives. It's great for farming and that's about it.

Spread was removed from hags. Of course you still have the pellet stream so even with no spread you will have to have good leading skills to have them all hit.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Meep Meep, on 06 January 2024 - 02:01 PM, said:

Spread was removed from hags.

I was implying that the duration and travel time caused it to naturally spread, and that was too much to keep it in use at higher tiers and the opportunity damage in the lower tiers was still too much (because people don't twist as much). Thus leading to a weapon that was potentially too potent in the lower tiers and had shifted out of use in the higher tiers. Since damage numbers can't be changed because PGI has a rule that for ballistics damage must match the number (even if the number correspond to bullet count), all that's left is either re-introduce cone of fire or leverage the spread mechanic from PPCs.

Personally I prefer the latter because it doesn't make the weapon less useful at longer range. Honestly I wouldn't be against LBX doing the same given that it had a similar mechanic (albeit client side only) in MW4.

[torsie]

Hello everyone! Your friendly local amateur C-H.A. GAUSS enthusiast here, I like using them a lot, a very lot and I always like seeing something happen with things that interest me.

While I fully admit that they are strong, especially in a game where people are interested only in poking from distance to do damage, because thats the only score that matters.
I firmly believe that they are not as super strong as everyone thinks they are. There is a lot of negative things to them, that make other guns more easy to use.
And people complain too much about them, even if I see someone else use them once or twice in every 10 games.

So here is completely unprofessional opinion that probably completely misses the point.

First they had their spread removed, making them easier to aim and hit with, on both short and long shooting.

Then they got super cool purple sparks making them instantly the best thing to use ever!

Now they have their pew pews shortened, again making them much easier to hit, that doesnt look like much, but on the big ones it is 0,03 seconds and if I understand it correctly that makes it 0,24s. Imagine lasers getting shorter by 0,24 seconds when their duration is already around 1 second, that IS CRAZY !!
This also makes them just slightly little bit more better for the hide and seek style many people use, because it takes so long for you to shoot all 6-8 shots and you have to stand perfectly still for whole duration.

And on top of that there is splash added to them, I was already looking at some splashie weapon because it sounds fun, so this means I have to put these on absolutely everything .

It sounds like its bad, and again I might understand it wrong, but even the smallest one, tiny humble 20, will now do "ONLY" 16 damage (5-1 * 4) which is still 1 more than regular gauss gun which deals 15, while also doing 4 damage to stuff around it.
That doesnt sound all that awesome. So lets move up a little.
30! The only proper size now deals 24 (5-1 * 6) and 6 damage to the rest of you.
And the biggest ouchie size is 32 (5-4 * 8) damage and 8 to the rest in a single shot.

So my Torsie1, now is easier to aim, looks better than any other weapon, delivers all her pew pews faster, allows me to move sooner AND will slap you for 48 damage while also hurting the rest of you for 12 damage.

I have only one question.

Does the splash hit the head too? I want free headshots!

Edited by torsie, 06 January 2024 - 03:07 PM.

[RickySpanish]

Does Osiris 4D pulse laser quirk also apply to XPL?

[Curccu]

Wraith 1, on 05 January 2024 - 10:13 PM, said:

Well, just bought an OSR-1P. My poor old RVN-H is feeling very sad, but the DPS calculations don't lie.

Yep even back in the day huggin almost feels sad with that osr-1p DPS, bit over 18 dPS with my quick way past midnight math..

foamyesque, on 06 January 2024 - 11:31 AM, said:

Cauldron is trying everything except spread to nerf HAGs.

But there was spread when it was released? I didn't play the game that season but my understanding it was meaningful spread? So they have tried and didn't like results I guess.

RickySpanish, on 06 January 2024 - 04:16 PM, said:

Does Osiris 4D pulse laser quirk also apply to XPL?

Usually those do, MechDB cannot handle those (last time I checked) but for vt-5m they work at least for LXPL.

[MechMaster059]

foamyesque, on 06 January 2024 - 11:31 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Cauldron is trying everything except spread to nerf HAGs. Every time they made a change to 'em to make 'em worse in some other capacity, spread was reduced until it went all the way to zero. Now they're adding splash instead of spread because they know HAGs need to spread, but there's still no actual spread.

Splash instead of spread makes sense for cERPPCs, because they're a single projectile, but HAGs are burst weapons where recoil-induced spread or just a fire cone would work perfectly fine.

HAGs, since their introduction, have had their own heat, cooldown, and volley durations mucked with (multiple times), were the precipitating event behind two UAC rebalances (jam changes and ammo counts), as well as being the thing that pushed 'nerf Clan DHS' over the finish line.

And it's all because there's this weird fixed idea amongst the balance people that a weapon must always go exactly where you click it.

This. Well said.

The Cauldron has done a horrible job balancing HAGs. What has been done to HAGs showcases why it's a bad idea to put a bunch of random people in charge of weapon balance. The Cauldron are not engineers and it shows.

[RickySpanish]

Curccu, on 06 January 2024 - 04:53 PM, said:

Yep even back in the day huggin almost feels sad with that osr-1p DPS, bit over 18 dPS with my quick way past midnight math..


But there was spread when it was released? I didn't play the game that season but my understanding it was meaningful spread? So they have tried and didn't like results I guess.


Usually those do, MechDB cannot handle those (last time I checked) but for vt-5m they work at least for LXPL.

Huge if true. 4D was already handy at rushing in to burn heat bar on MXPL/SXPL combos, with those quirks you'll be able to do your heatbar's worth of damage much faster before repositioning.

[MechMaster059]

Moadebe, on 05 January 2024 - 09:32 PM, said:

...

There ARE some discussions going on about possible Radar Deprivation nerfs, LRM velocity nerfs, LRM "attack angle" nerfs (making them shallower) for indirect fire, and adding velocity bonuses to Artemis for LRMS.

...

"possible Radar Deprivation nerfs"
Yes. I recommend 19% --> 12%.

"LRM velocity nerfs"
"LRM "attack angle" nerfs (making them shallower) for indirect fire"
Riiiiiggghhttt... someone whispering into the ear of the Cauldron clearly doesn't like LRMs. I have a hunch who. Is it the guy who makes videos on YouTube with horrible Blood Asp LRM boat builds that has one of his unit members act as a NARC Raven slave on Polar Highlands, the most LRM friendly map in the game, and then claims LRMs are OP?

These potential nerfs to LRMs are HORRIBLE ideas. If the Cauldron makes LRM indirect fire trajectory any flatter I'll probably stop using LRMs altogether. That is a potentially weapon-wrecking change. LRMs are already frustrating as hell to land on several maps due to terrain getting in the way.

Who in the hell are these clowns who think LRMs are OP? Go play a friggin LRM mech without a NARC Raven slave if you think it's so easy. Even with a NARC Raven slave, LRMs are not a big deal. The NARC Raven will have almost no damage dealt at the end of the match so the boosted performance of the LRM boat gets averaged down by their NARC Raven slave.

"adding velocity bonuses to Artemis for LRMS"
Something clearly needs to be done because Artemis generally isn't worth it for LRMs. Just make Artemis give ½ its dispersion reduction bonus to indirect fire. (-15% instead of -30% dispersion reduction) Done.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 06 January 2024 - 05:45 PM, said:

This. Well said.

The Cauldron has done a horrible job balancing HAGs. What has been done to HAGs showcases why it's a bad idea to put a bunch of random people in charge of weapon balance. The Cauldron are not engineers and it shows.

Pretty sure you have no idea what you are talking about, regardless, I AM an engineer and I agree with most of the changes they've implemented. I mean, if they were just called light, medium, and heavy HAG their job would be much easier in that they could reduce the damage to begin with, but PGI has a rule that for non missiles, numbers = damage. IMO it's a dumb rule but what can you do?

The crucial difference between spread and splash is how it interacts with range. Splash spreads damage on a weapon without actually hampering its killing ability at range like spread does. The spread at long range for HAGs originally made them not even worth using them at range, pushing them into mid range which was already cluttered with high alphas. Heat and cooldown would've hampered the ability to mix them for higher alphas but also would've just made them yet another mid range weapon which as I mentioned, already has a lot of weapons competing in that space.

Now the question is just what the right mixture of splash and duration is so that they see use in higher tiers and stop being as threatening at lower tiers.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 06 January 2024 - 06:17 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Pulled the hagcat out and yep this is an overall buff. The pellet stream almost feels like launch and the splash is useful once mechs are beat up and open so that even if you miss the cherry red ct the splash will pop it anyways. I've noticed a marked uptick in securing kills with it now Derp imma goof..

Edited by Meep Meep, 06 January 2024 - 08:31 PM.

[foamyesque]

Meep Meep, on 06 January 2024 - 07:01 PM, said:

Pulled the hagcat out and yep this is an overall buff. The pellet stream almost feels like launch and the splash is useful once mechs are beat up and open so that even if you miss the cherry red ct the splash will pop it anyways. I've noticed a marked uptick in securing kills with it now.

That's funny because the relevant patch isn't live yet and I'm told there's no such thing as a private test server (which, TBF, I don't believe).

[crazytimes]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 January 2024 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yeah, seconded. ANOTHER LRM nerf? The missiles are already subsonic, you want to slow them down even more? And what, give that velocity back on Artemis so there’s another tax on being able to fire indirect?

It better be a helluva velocity boost for Artemis… like MRM speed.

Weapons have to get balanced for more than one use case. Different tiers use them differently, and faction play/comp play may use them differently as well.

People doing poorly with them on a 3 x LRM5+A and Machine gun boat in tier 5 make up some stats, but also contributing to the overall balance picture is 4 man groups running 3 x LRM90 boats + a NARC light. Or worse in Faction play.

[foamyesque]

crazytimes, on 06 January 2024 - 07:37 PM, said:

People doing poorly with them on a 3 x LRM5+A and Machine gun boat in tier 5 make up some stats, but also contributing to the overall balance picture is 4 man groups running 3 x LRM90 boats + a NARC light. Or worse in Faction play.

Faction Play is a tiny percentage of drops and players, but even aside from that, the solution is, as I have said before and am going to keep saying, to nerf NARCs.

Give 'em the RAC treatment and chop the beacon duration in half and then boost ammo counts to compensate. Make the projectile more visible and generate a hit indicator.

Edited by foamyesque, 06 January 2024 - 07:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 06 January 2024 - 07:48 PM, said:

Faction Play is a tiny percentage of drops and players, but even aside from that, the solution is, as I have said before and am going to keep saying, to nerf NARCs.

Give 'em the RAC treatment and chop the beacon duration in half and then boost ammo counts to compensate. Make the projectile more visible and generate a hit indicator.

The biggest problem is there isn't good counterplay with NARCs, shortening the duration is great and all but the issue is still that NARCs have no actual counter outside a friendly ECM field and no way to remove them (I don't remember if you could shake off normal narc pods in TT, but I know you could with iNARC). It would be nice if they fell off after you take a range of damage or like MW4 where the NARC'd section being destroyed removed the NARC.

[MechMaster059]

foamyesque, on 06 January 2024 - 07:48 PM, said:

Faction Play is a tiny percentage of drops and players, but even aside from that, the solution is, as I have said before and am going to keep saying, to nerf NARCs.

Give 'em the RAC treatment and chop the beacon duration in half and then boost ammo counts to compensate. Make the projectile more visible and generate a hit indicator.

I see a lot of talk on this forum and in game about how OP NARCs supposedly are and I'm very skeptical of such claims given my own experience playing my NARC Raven-3L. NARCs don't help vs terrain. Mounting a NARC has a high opportunity cost in firepower, equivalent to an SRM6. (That's A LOT of firepower to give up on a light mech) When I'm NARCed, I simply find cover and hang out a bit and wait for it to pass. I almost never get killed due to being NARCed. All that being said...

Slightly lowering the duration (-2-4 seconds) and giving a small ammo count increase (+2 ammo/ton) in return seems reasonable. Giving an audible hit indicator is an even better idea and would go a long way towards resolving any perceived OPness of NARCs. (That could potentially end up being a heavy nerf as it would likely cause people to take cover much more quickly.)

[foamyesque]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 06 January 2024 - 07:56 PM, said:

The biggest problem is there isn't good counterplay with NARCs, shortening the duration is great and all but the issue is still that NARCs have no actual counter outside a friendly ECM field and no way to remove them (I don't remember if you could shake off normal narc pods in TT, but I know you could with iNARC). It would be nice if they fell off after you take a range of damage or like MW4 where the NARC'd section being destroyed removed the NARC.

Yeah, the lack of counterplay is a problem, which is why the duration should be shortened. If the only real interaction you can have is when you're shot with it, make it so you have to be shot more often and getting hit with it isn't a 'sit out the next minute of the match' even without LRMs / ATMs on the opposite side.

MechMaster059, on 06 January 2024 - 08:17 PM, said:

I see a lot of talk on this forum and in game about how OP NARCs supposedly are and I'm very skeptical of such claims given my own experience playing my NARC Raven-3L. NARCs don't help vs terrain. Mounting a NARC has a high opportunity cost in firepower, equivalent to an SRM6. (That's A LOT of firepower to give up on a light mech) When I'm NARCed, I simply find cover and hang out a bit and wait for it to pass.

In QP, and especially in solo-drop QP, NARCs aren't particularly strong IMO either, but they are always involved in people complaining about LRMs being too strong. Absent a NARC LRMs are one of the weakest weapon systems in the game and arguably the weakest. And yet here we are, with a potential radar-dep nerf being considered good reason to nerf 'em even further.

Edited by foamyesque, 06 January 2024 - 08:31 PM.

[Meep Meep]

foamyesque, on 06 January 2024 - 07:31 PM, said:

That's funny because the relevant patch isn't live yet and I'm told there's no such thing as a private test server (which, TBF, I don't believe).

Lmao its been a while since I played it and forgot the no spread buff was a patch or so back. Been playing a fair few other games recently and thought this one was already out.. Duh... Well I guess it will be even better then.

[Novakaine]

Yet again shakin my head.

[Saved By The Bell]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 06 January 2024 - 01:56 PM, said:

Not quite, you really don't see it in upper tiers anymore because it just spreads too much compared to the numerous alternatives. It's great for farming and that's about it.

Yes, and its OK.
Dont want to see 99% mechs with HAGS again.