172 replies to this topic

[Far Reach]

I notice a odd thing in regards to posts. After several rightfully critical posts a few members always slide the forum with innane banter and empty discussions.

Did you think we didn't notice you trying to dilute the discussion?
Is this how you gaslight the few remaining people into ignoring your greedy decisions? Because it's working opposite.

Edited by Far Reach, 22 January 2024 - 06:17 AM.

[MarsThunder]

> Radar deprivation node values are reduced to 16% per node (from 19%)
It would be interesting to know the precise formula of tracking time.

[Luminios]

LRMs have to fly a shorter distance now that they don't arc as high. That means the heavier launchers with Artemis hit their targets earlier than before as they keep their velocity but have a shorter path. For the launchers without Artemis it depends on the distance, but you can save up to 100m in distance going up and down while losing 30m/s in velocity. For the maximum distance traveled (150m up + 990m distance + 150m down = 1290m; 1290/190 = ~6.8 vs. 1190/160 = ~7.4) the travel time increases by .6 seconds.

On the other hand the nerf to radar deprivation lowers the maximum reduction of missile lock time from 95% to 80% for mechs without omnipods that give additional radar deprivation. I have to admit I am not 100% certain what the base duration for a missile lock is, I found an old thread claiming 2 seconds, so with the skills that would amount to 5.5 seconds of missile lock after losing LOS to your target. Reduced by 95% that would be 0.275 seconds. Reduced by 80% it is 1.1 seconds. The difference is a bit more than .8 seconds.

The time gained by the nerf to radar deprivation is in a similar area to the time lost by the velocity nerf to the non-Artemis launchers. Quirked mechs are going to lose a bit more time to the velocity changes, but overall the changes are balanced with each other. Artemis launchers are getting something for their tonnage and should perform better after the patch than they do now.

Finally the lower arc will lead to cover being more reliable against LRMs, but it will also allow you to use LRMs on the sides of Bearclaw II without hitting the ceiling all the time. Overall I think the changes will make non-Artemis launchers slightly weaker but more reliable, while making Artemis launchers slightly better and more reliable. Either way, it is neither a huge nerf nor a huge buff to the weapon system. I'd also not be surprised if the base lock duration is more than 2 seconds.

______________________


I think the EXE-B might not be the flashiest 'egend to date, but I think it is fair to say that it is the 'egend that is most different to the base chassis. EXE-B builds will be completely different to regular EXE builds. You finally have the tonnage to go wild with all the hardpoints and quirks the EXE omnipods give you. The mech has 17 tons additional pod space. IF that isn't enough for you to make builds you couldn't make on any other mech previously idk how to help you. I am personally curious to see how well 2UAC5 2UAC10 with 50% jam chance and 7.5% ballistic cooldown will play out - at least on paper that looks like an impressive amount of firepower.

[BlueDevilspawn]

w0qj, on 22 January 2024 - 04:21 AM, said:

I guess LV Lou is Vuit ton boots for the Executioner Sovereign qualifies as a Legendary mech then

Never knew the great house LV went with the Clans in the great exodus

https://unitcolorcom.../zeta-galaxy-2/ - here is the Burrock camo inspiration direct from the unit compendium database

Post-patch indirect LRMs are not ATM height, ATMs are still much lower.

Edited by BlueDevilspawn, 22 January 2024 - 09:21 AM.

[Cheeks Akimbo]

I like the looks of the update.

Will say it's a funny irony though that you're adding HAG splash after caldron fighting so long against spread.

[ScrapIron Prime]

InnerSphereNews, on 20 January 2024 - 06:30 PM, said:

Known Issue: LRM/ATM Missiles have a chance to fire in the wrong direction despite having missile lock

I missed this at first go around. This has got to be my favorite patch note ever...

"Hi, we reworked how lock on missiles work and now they sometimes fire in a completely different direction and are totally useless. But that's no reason to delay rolling out the patch, just live with the weapon system being borked to hell and back. Thanks!"

Seriously? I mean I predicted someone was going to make a typo and reduce the speed to 16 m/s instead of 160m/s and we'd have to live with that. But this takes the proverbial cake.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 22 January 2024 - 01:09 PM.

[BlueDevilspawn]

Cheeks Akimbo, on 22 January 2024 - 10:04 AM, said:

I like the looks of the update.

Will say it's a funny irony though that you're adding HAG splash after caldron fighting so long against spread.

Spread and splash are not the same.

The concept is allowing a target to spread damage while rewarding skill on the part of the shooter.

Spread was pure RNG, and it gets more pinpoint as one gets close which is where lasers are added to create HAG vom and problematic alphas.

Longer duration was added between pellets but that apparently wasn't enough of an impact to allow for twisting.

So, we've slightly toned down the duration but added splash for 20% of the damage. This will allow the bulk of the damage to be directed (rewarding skill) while reducing the drilling power (forced spread). This also works at all ranges.

Edited by BlueDevilspawn, 22 January 2024 - 02:17 PM.

[Glymbol]

Thanks a lof for the Osiris OSR-3D quirks! It is already quite good and very fun to play, after this patch it will be next level carnage.

[Navid A1]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 January 2024 - 01:08 PM, said:

I missed this at first go around. This has got to be my favorite patch note ever...

"Hi, we reworked how lock on missiles work and now they sometimes fire in a completely different direction and are totally useless. But that's no reason to delay rolling out the patch, just live with the weapon system being borked to hell and back. Thanks!"

Seriously? I mean I predicted someone was going to make a typo and reduce the speed to 16 m/s instead of 160m/s and we'd have to live with that. But this takes the proverbial cake.

I'm 100% sure it is going to be totally fine and they just wanted to cover their bases with that.

[RacerX]

I want to know what Gyro space magic keeps the Li Dok To from falling over. That laser light glove is gigantic!

[nopempele]

It appears to me that non-Artemis LRMs are to become completely extinct. The crazy lock-on time already made them obscure (outside of pairing with TAG/NARC).

I really don't think LRMs were a problem before, and I am not an avid LRM user. In fact, I even like the challenge that they present (just not too hard a challenge, please). They make you use the cover smartly, field AMS, look out for friendly ECMs... There are plenty of counters to them, I just don't see a compelling reason to pull out a nerf hammer now. They are not even instant damage weapons and you get a big red flashing warning before you are even reached by them. What other weapon has that? Do I get a warning when I am targeted by an all-black (on black terrain) ECM-equipped 2xERPPC+2xGauss Direwolf hiding at 1.5 km away? No, I just suddenly go KABOOM. (c) Balanced by Cauldron.

Artemus Prime, on 21 January 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

Regarding LRM Buffs
Considering that the maximum flight trajectory height was reduced by 1/3 means that missiles will have less travel distance.

Now do consider that the change applies to the Maximum flight trajectory. Basically, that makes everything you have said afterwards completely wrong. It is a nerf, and it seems to me like a pretty hard one as well.

P.S.: Just curious what would be the next balancing step after realising non-Artemis LRMs are dead? As devs seem to favour the asymmetric approach to balancing, I guess they will buff something completely unrelated next time. Like cooldown time or damage... Which will only add more fuel to the fire instead of fixing it, I am afraid.

Edited by nopempele, 22 January 2024 - 03:32 PM.

[nopempele]

Also, regarding the Osiris buff... I own OSR-4D and I really don't think it deserves a buff. It is an absolute beast. It is too good, especially when compared to other lights.

Whoever gives you this kind of bad advice? The so-called Cauldron is relentless in turning this game into "Gauss/ERPPC Warrior Online". Don't you think that they might be a bit... you know, biased? Like, continuously asking to buff anything they like (and are actively abusing) and nerf anything they don't like (anything preventing them from abusing their favourite meta)?

[Viltor]

Artemus Prime, on 21 January 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

Regarding LRM Buffs

Considering that the maximum flight trajectory height was reduced by 1/3 means that missiles will have less travel distance. Even if they have a reduced velocity, they will track targets further with the radar deprivation nerf before breaking lock.

Reduction in velocity increases their accuracy when correcting their trajectory against faster moving targets. Consider the increase in accuracy because even the fastest lights don't move faster than LRMs do:

• Indirect: 160 m/s = 576 kph
  
• Indirect +Artemis: 190 m/s = 684 kph
  
• Direct: 224 m/s = 806.4 kph
  
• Direct +Artemis = 266 m/s = 957.6 kph

Let’s not forget about the indirect buffs to LRMs:

• The ECM bubble has been reduced on ECM mechs, making it so non-ECM mechs do not have protection without being clustered up (generally not a good thing).
  
• Radar Deprivation is being nerfed, increasing the amount of time missiles will travel before breaking locks.

Overall: Buffs


All weapons, including indirect fire LRMs, cannot fire past hard cover (even in their current state). That being the point of hard cover in a First-Person Shooter. Concealment on the other hand doesn't provide hard cover. For example, when a group of enemy mechs is in a ditch on Canyon Network they do not have cover if LRMs are fired indirectly. This should still be the case with a reduced max height flight trajectory.

Something to consider about weapons balance (which has appropriately nerfed other weapons systems):

Of all weapons in the game, LRMs will still be the only weapon able to hit targets without exposing to the target. A target cannot trade fire with the mech firing indirectly. Besides teammates holding locks and disabling enemy ECM with PPCs, let’s not forget UAVs, and NARC beacons to further assist indirect LRMs.

Honestly, why should anyone be allowed to sit comfortably behind cover while other people are out there trading armor? Funny thing is, they are buffing LRMs and people just don’t realize it.

3% distance decrease, that doesn't compensate 15% velocity nerf and 50% height nerf.

[Viltor]

Luminios, on 22 January 2024 - 08:45 AM, said:

LRMs have to fly a shorter distance now that they don't arc as high. That means the heavier launchers with Artemis hit their targets earlier than before as they keep their velocity but have a shorter path. For the launchers without Artemis it depends on the distance, but you can save up to 100m in distance going up and down while losing 30m/s in velocity. For the maximum distance traveled (150m up + 990m distance + 150m down = 1290m; 1290/190 = ~6.8 vs. 1190/160 = ~7.4) the travel time increases by .6 seconds.

On the other hand the nerf to radar deprivation lowers the maximum reduction of missile lock time from 95% to 80% for mechs without omnipods that give additional radar deprivation. I have to admit I am not 100% certain what the base duration for a missile lock is, I found an old thread claiming 2 seconds, so with the skills that would amount to 5.5 seconds of missile lock after losing LOS to your target. Reduced by 95% that would be 0.275 seconds. Reduced by 80% it is 1.1 seconds. The difference is a bit more than .8 seconds.

The time gained by the nerf to radar deprivation is in a similar area to the time lost by the velocity nerf to the non-Artemis launchers. Quirked mechs are going to lose a bit more time to the velocity changes, but overall the changes are balanced with each other. Artemis launchers are getting something for their tonnage and should perform better after the patch than they do now.

Finally the lower arc will lead to cover being more reliable against LRMs, but it will also allow you to use LRMs on the sides of Bearclaw II without hitting the ceiling all the time. Overall I think the changes will make non-Artemis launchers slightly weaker but more reliable, while making Artemis launchers slightly better and more reliable. Either way, it is neither a huge nerf nor a huge buff to the weapon system. I'd also not be surprised if the base lock duration is more than 2 seconds.

______________________


I think the EXE-B might not be the flashiest 'egend to date, but I think it is fair to say that it is the 'egend that is most different to the base chassis. EXE-B builds will be completely different to regular EXE builds. You finally have the tonnage to go wild with all the hardpoints and quirks the EXE omnipods give you. The mech has 17 tons additional pod space. IF that isn't enough for you to make builds you couldn't make on any other mech previously idk how to help you. I am personally curious to see how well 2UAC5 2UAC10 with 50% jam chance and 7.5% ballistic cooldown will play out - at least on paper that looks like an impressive amount of firepower.

I guess you never played LRM boat, let me explain.
As I posted before, distance is reduced only by 3%, that's nothing.
Artemis weights 1 ton per launcher, usually LRM boats have x4 LRM15s or LRM20s, because anything less than 4x LRM15s is useless because of AMS buffs. So now every LRM boat will need to find extra 4 tons and 4 slots of space. For example you can't fit two Artemis LRM20s in your torso without going STD engine.
Radar Derp doesn't affect lock time, only time when mech remains targeted when leaving line of sight.
Biggest problem with missile trajectory height reduction is not that enemy can hide behind a rock, but that you need to be on a flat surface to launch your missiles. Guess why noone play ATMs, they have low trajectory compared to LRMs.

[Viltor]

nopempele, on 22 January 2024 - 03:31 PM, said:

P.S.: Just curious what would be the next balancing step after realising non-Artemis LRMs are dead? As devs seem to favour the asymmetric approach to balancing, I guess they will buff something completely unrelated next time. Like cooldown time or damage... Which will only add more fuel to the fire instead of fixing it, I am afraid.

1. Decrease amount of rockets per ton of ammo.
2. Buff AMS.
3. Increase LRM spread.
4. Decrease max distance.
5. Nerf quirks on LRM boats.

These "Cauldron" guys don't play QP, and that's where all action is, competitive scene is not important as they think it is.

[killkimno]

Rhaelcan, on 21 January 2024 - 06:48 PM, said:

Arm actuators can't be crit.

According to the official wiki it is possible crit

https://wiki.mwomerc...e=Critical_Hits

Example: Figure 1 zooms in on the left arm of an IS 'Mech. Arms have 12 critical slots. The fixed components (shoulder, upper arm actuator, lower arm actuator and hand actuator) and medium laser occupy one slot each. The double heat sink occupies three slots. The structure slots are ignored for critical damage chances. Thus, for crit damage calculations there are eight slots. The single slot components each have a 12.5% chance (1/8) to be damaged, and the double heat sink has a 37.5% (3/8) chance to be damaged.

Edited by killkimno, 22 January 2024 - 05:57 PM.

[Luminios]

Viltor, on 22 January 2024 - 04:22 PM, said:

I guess you never played LRM boat, let me explain.
As I posted before, distance is reduced only by 3%, that's nothing.
Artemis weights 1 ton per launcher, usually LRM boats have x4 LRM15s or LRM20s, because anything less than 4x LRM15s is useless because of AMS buffs. So now every LRM boat will need to find extra 4 tons and 4 slots of space. For example you can't fit two Artemis LRM20s in your torso without going STD engine.
Radar Derp doesn't affect lock time, only time when mech remains targeted when leaving line of sight.
Biggest problem with missile trajectory height reduction is not that enemy can hide behind a rock, but that you need to be on a flat surface to launch your missiles. Guess why noone play ATMs, they have low trajectory compared to LRMs.

The graphic shows you the thought behind the changes, I don't think it is supposed to be to scale or an accurate model of LRM pathing. People like you are the reason they put a "not real size" on hotdog and burger advertisements. Furthermore, whether I call it Lock Duration or Lock Retention, doesn't really change the mechanic, so the point remains.

_______________________

In that case I'd assume they can get crit, but it doesn't impact the gameplay. You aren't going to lose movement in your arms when the actuators get crit.

Edited by Luminios, 22 January 2024 - 06:04 PM.

[CoronaStrider]

What is this Executioner EXE-M variant? I don't recognize it.

Edited by CoronaStrider, 22 January 2024 - 06:08 PM.

[TestBacon]

Why is LRM *DIRECT* fire even catching velocity a nerf in the first place? If I am brave/foolish enough to maintain LOS against gauss/bluelaser/AC2 boats shouldn't I get some sort of reward for that? Increase the DF velocity and flatten the DF trajectory. If cauldron wants to poop all over indirect fire then at least give LRMs some added ability in DF.

[Arnetheus]

nopempele, on 22 January 2024 - 03:50 PM, said:

Also, regarding the Osiris buff... I own OSR-4D and I really don't think it deserves a buff. It is an absolute beast.

Such a rare "beast" that nobody ever sees it, yeah.

Quote

It is too good, especially when compared to other lights.

Quite an assessment there. What lights/builds do you even play?

Quote

Whoever gives you this kind of bad advice?

You are free to join the Cauldron discord server any time, to give them bad advice directly.

Quote

The so-called Cauldron is relentless in turning this game into "Gauss/ERPPC Warrior Online". Don't you think that they might be a bit... you know, biased? Like, continuously asking to buff anything they like (and are actively abusing) and nerf anything they don't like (anything preventing them from abusing their favourite meta)?

Well, that's quite a self-contradiction already, for such a small post.
Why the Osiris buffs then?

Viltor, on 22 January 2024 - 04:28 PM, said:

These "Cauldron" guys don't play QP, and that's where all action is, competitive scene is not important as they think it is.

- Competetive scene was never the focus. You are bad at strawmanning, stop.

- Most of them play QP more than you do, mr. "13 to 77 games per month for a year".