112 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Davegt27, on 24 January 2024 - 12:13 AM, said:

wow it did not take long to make it to Krakatau

Kaetetoa is a mysterious alien bird planet in battletech canon. Krakatau is an actual real volcano in Indonesia.

I am highjacking this thread this is now volcano talk

[Davegt27]

I am sorry I got it all screwed up

https://www.sarna.ne...tet%C3%B4%C3%A3

Quote

Kaetetôã is a planet in an unknown location. It has no known connection to the Inner Sphere or any region of space known to humanity, and was reached only by accidental misjumps. The planet is notable for being the homeworld of the intelligent Tetatae species.
The system contains two different worlds suitable for human habitation, a planet named "Kaetetôã" and a large moon called "Far Country" by the humans. Either of these names could arguably be applied to the star system as a whole, for which no specific name was established.
In the Tetatae language, Kaetetôã literally means "Earth and Sky".

again sorry

[Alex Morgaine]

So accelerating and deceleration quirks don't function properly past 67%? Or rather 60% since AFAIK there is no way to granularly change accelerate/ decelerate except in 10% increments. Is there a way to do values between 10 percents for speed setting? 🤔

[kalashnikity]

LordNothing, on 21 January 2024 - 07:23 PM, said:

the most valuable post in the thread.

Indeed, possibly the only useful post, I took a screen shot of it, in fact...

Now I know who to single out on the battlefield for specific punishment.

[kalashnikity]

MechMaster059, on 22 January 2024 - 05:37 AM, said:

I knew AMS "counters" MRMs and SRMs, but does it really? When you see an SRM brawler bearing down upon you do you think to yourself "Thank goodness I have AMS to protect me from that guy's SRMs". Me neither. No one mounts AMS to counter MRMs or SRMs because the close range those missiles are used at, their flat trajectory, and high velocity makes AMS nearly useless to counter them.

Wow man, you so got me there by bringing up the fact that AMS technically, in only the most technical sense, counter MRMs and SRMs. Fail.


Then you get 0 points. Disappointing. I expected a little better from you foamyesque.


I can't go into detail regarding your answer.


Target Retention does suck but it does what it says and, more importantly, the skill nodes for it are floating in space so you can just ignore them. The node I'm thinking of is even more useless and damages the skill tree.



What is the point of posing a technical question you acknowledge "has little bearing on the playing of the game"?

#3 is not referring to jump jet skill nodes. Jump jet skill nodes are all good and useful.


LOL. Classic movie.


I didn't expect you would be.


EXACTLY. Tells you all you need to know about the Cauldron and the Gold Champs doesn't it. Boy can they dish it out making fun of someone's tier, but when it comes time to THINK, suddenly they're nowhere to be found.

The answer to #2 has already been mentioned in this thread. Some people are getting closer to #1. I provided hints. I could understand people getting upset for me sitting on the answer to #4 but #1 and #2 are fairly easy and, if you understand normalization, #3 doesn't take much thought either.


I will begin providing answers, one question at a time, tonight. Once I provide an answer, that question will no longer be worth any points.

One thing I noticed embarrassingly recently, was taking the very last 1 or 2 nodes for armor and structure doesn't always do anything on ultralight mechs with low armor values, for instance a Flea 19 and a commando I was optimizing, I ended up being able to save a few nodes for use else where by paying attention to exactly how it changed my armor values.

[kalashnikity]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 January 2024 - 12:24 PM, said:

Oh he might have relevant points, but he's not selling them well. This coming from me, who has been called ignorant on these boards several times in the past couple weeks. (Amazingly not a Code of Conduct violation!)

As far as I can tell (from limited experience), the only real CoC violation is embarrassing PGI by airing their dirty laundry.

[kalashnikity]

MechMaster059, on 22 January 2024 - 03:49 PM, said:

AWESOME POST Luminios. Seriously. I will answer your post point by point.


BINGO! You just upgraded from ½ to 1 full point!

It's worse than just the UAV HIGHLY LIKELY to be shot down before getting the benefit of the node. Look at its position in the skill tree. It blocks the rest of the UAV nodes and acts as a 1 point skill tax to get to them. Why? Notice the Coolshot and Salvos trees don't have a weird node sitting at the front of them like that.

Skill points are too valuable to just throw away. As a result, I'm not specced into the UAV tree on any mech I own, not even my NARC Raven-3L.


The Coolshot Cooldown node is underpowered and a problem, yet it's not total junk.


I consider crit chance reduction a required skill. I get at least 3 points on nearly all my mechs. Though they have reduced usefulness on light mechs, they're still worth getting on all other classes of mechs and even some light mechs with structure quirks.


Correct! You win another ½ point.


I'm not sure I follow you here. The thrust value determines the strength of JJ lift does it not? The Lift Speed nodes boost initial thrust to make the mech jumpier. That's all that matters, so no, including initial thrust in the normalization calculation is not arbitrary.


I didn't know the heat value shown on jump jets was just a base value. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'll be sure to check the MechDB Wiki in the future. Can I ask you a serious question? Where in the game UI is this information available? This is a chronic issue with the game. Precise information is not available within it so I was left to assume total JJ burn heat was (heat / duration) x #JJs. Very odd that Class II JJ's have the worst additional heat value.


Close enough, another 1 point for figuring out the major problem with JJs! Class II are underpowered and Class I suck. Don't tell me Class I JJ's don't suck. You know they suck. PGI knows they suck which is why they gave my MAD-4HP +15% thrust and +15% duration quirks. (Guess what? I still didn't mount any Class I's on my 4HP) They're too heavy for what they give.

I consider Class IV JJs to be right where they should be. There is a minor problem and a medium problem you didn't identify.


It doesn't matter how they interact. What matters is that the numbers on top are "good" and the numbers on the bottom are "bad". The normalization value is a ratio of "good" vs "bad". A normalization value is a tool to help find outliers within sets of related numbers. They show Class I JJs to be a clear outlier. They're significantly worse than the other JJs.


Understood.


Um... that's not a "useless" value. That shows how hot a given class/configuration of JJs are. I can assure you if PGI doubled or tripled those heat values you'd notice the difference.


Yes, please tell me the formula for jump height. I'd like to know that.


Another home run Luminios! You win a whopping 2½ additional points! Congratulations on answering the hardest question!

So let me get this straight... the graph showing a mechs acceleration/deceleration curve is utter bunk? Am I reading you right?

Try it yourself. Get one of the Chargers, bring it into the Academy and run up to the bridge on the left behind where all the mechs are standing. Run down this bridge at full throttle with your torso rotated 90 degrees to the left.(My N7 runs at 89.2kph with skills) The moment you get past the first spire/bridge support slow down to a complete stop. You will see that it takes around 2 seconds just to go from 100% down to 66% throttle and from there your speed will drop dramatically faster. Try this with 6 points into Hard Break. It has almost no effect reducing the time of the 100% --> 66% portion of the throttle, then suddenly your speed will drop very quickly because those additional Hard Break points kick in. The 66% throttle issue also seems to work in reverse. If you're backing away from danger at full throttle it takes around 1.5+ seconds to get from -100% to -66% throttle before you can then fully slow down to a stop, turn, and get into cover. Just devastating if you're being fired upon.

You combine this with the fact that Class II JJs are underpowered (The CGR uses Class IIs) and it dawned upon me when looking at that accel/decel curve that the Charger would never be the "Fast Assault" mech I had hoped it would be. Yes, its top speed does indeed make it fast, but it still has the VERY clunky handling of a typical assault mech. Since Hard Break doesn't work to slow it down when you need it most, the only solution is to throttle down the mech to around 70-80% when operating in closed terrain like the buildings in River City or Vitric Station. Kinda defeats the purpose of making it a "fast" assault mech doesn't it. I was going to write a post advocating for all variants of the Charger to be given +10% accel/decel quirks but it wouldn't matter. Their accel/decel beyond 66% throttle is so trash that +10% wouldn't be noticeable.


That's very generous of you to credit Navid A1 with understanding what those numbers meant anywhere near to the degree you did.


This is a throw away line that can be said in response to any balance post. It's also a straw-man argument because I'm not "reading from a table".


Pretty sure trying to make skill nodes and mech equipment more useful falls under game balance.

=====

I want to thank you Luminios for putting in the effort to answer these questions. Your new total score is: 6 BUT WAIT, you know what I'm gonna do for you Luminios? Since you were the 1ST and ONLY person to get a question completely correct, I'm going to award you an addtional SUPER-WHAMMY-ULTRA-BONUS-POINT bringing your total score to 7!!!

I hearby declare Luminios to be the new Lead Cauldron Balancer!!!

=====

Well Navid A1, you had a good run buddy, we laughed, we cried, but in the end, Luminios was the better man so I'm going to have to give him your job as the Lead Cauldron Balancer. Please be gracious in defeat and lets not have any problems OK?


The problem is more pronounced on the Chargeer due to its high top speed compared to other assault mechs.

Your dismissal of JJ (and nodes) on assaults is ridiculous, the mobility gained by being able to take shortcuts on specific maps can be a literal game changer. I've altered the game dramatically many times like that.

For instance on canyon network/hybernal, the ability to shortcut by leaping from the valley to the wall top allow you to alter position and shortcut a full minute (in many cases more) worth of walking.

On the rare occasions I do take any JJ nodes, it is when I need just a tiny boost to be able to clear the canyon wall from the valley. This can also be useful on lighter mechs too, and can save a ton, why take an extra JJ when just a node or few can let you make that critical leap for a shortcut, one that is found on multiple maps?

The fact you would dismiss it out of hand is shocking to me at least.

[kalashnikity]

MechMaster059, on 22 January 2024 - 08:35 PM, said:

They're not "my" UAVs. I rarely use UAVs.


I'm sure you get the full 60 seconds every time Dogmeat1. You're THAT good.


So you pop a UAV, right in the middle of a pile of enemy mechs, and none of them shoot it down before 60 seconds? Sounds legit.


They offer up knee-jerk theory crafting that is typical in any balance discussion. People will come out and contradict you no matter what you say.


OK. This is not relevant to the probability that a UAV will be shot down before 60 seconds.


No, I don't record my games because it's somewhat cumbersome to set that up every time I have a match and the generated file is large. I don't play the game on a pro team so that level of commitment is a bit much.

But I get it, basically you're gonna come at me with this same condescending crap no matter what I post until I'm Tier 1 and can shut you up.


I try to put 4 into it. It simply becomes too expensive in skill point cost after that. Maybe as I get better at twisting I'll make more use of the Torso Twist nodes for shielding against damage.

All I can say is that I've noticed bad things happen once my armor is gone with no points into that skill. The difference between 3, 4, and 5 points is noticeable to survivability.

10 extra seconds of UAV is likely to be just as helpful in most games as you "always taking taking seismic"

half of these "truths" you are stating are merely opinions and preferences. Your declaration that "JJ are useless on Assaults" is ludicrous. The ability to short cut certain places on certain maps is at least as helpful as that seismic which you "always take" but which has 5 halfway useless nodes just to get to it.

[kalashnikity]

Davegt27, on 24 January 2024 - 07:11 AM, said:

I am sorry I got it all screwed up

https://www.sarna.ne...tet%C3%B4%C3%A3


again sorry

I met those aliens in a dream once, the only actual mechwarrior dream I've ever had. I was piloting a kit fox with a single Gauss rifle, in an area similar to alpine peaks, but a bit lower altitude, where there were trees.

Good dream , epic battle.

pbiggz, on 24 January 2024 - 06:07 AM, said:

Kaetetoa is a mysterious alien bird planet in battletech canon. Krakatau is an actual real volcano in Indonesia.

I am highjacking this thread this is now volcano talk

I'm in, this way cooler than what OP is rambling about.

[kalashnikity]

Luminios, on 23 January 2024 - 03:14 AM, said:

The value for Upward Thrust of the various JJ classes is also part of the table on the MechDB wiki page for movement and controls. You should check the wiki out, I am sure there are a lot of things to learn - I know I could still find stuff I was clueless about on it if I were to dig in.

I don't do math on it, I get in a mech, go to testing grounds, and see if it worked for what I need. I have specific areas on specific maps to test stuff, such as Jump Jets, or heat/dps ratio.

[Curccu]

kalashnikity, on 30 January 2024 - 05:10 PM, said:

One thing I noticed embarrassingly recently, was taking the very last 1 or 2 nodes for armor and structure doesn't always do anything on ultralight mechs with low armor values, for instance a Flea 19 and a commando I was optimizing, I ended up being able to save a few nodes for use else where by paying attention to exactly how it changed my armor values.

They should work.
In mechlab you are shown as values as integers but values after decimal separator does exist, you just cannot see them.

[LordNothing]

kalashnikity, on 30 January 2024 - 04:57 PM, said:

Indeed, possibly the only useful post, I took a screen shot of it, in fact...

Now I know who to single out on the battlefield for specific punishment.

wonder how much other useful information is stuck on the bird planet.

[LordNothing]

kalashnikity, on 30 January 2024 - 05:31 PM, said:

Your dismissal of JJ (and nodes) on assaults is ridiculous, the mobility gained by being able to take shortcuts on specific maps can be a literal game changer. I've altered the game dramatically many times like that.

For instance on canyon network/hybernal, the ability to shortcut by leaping from the valley to the wall top allow you to alter position and shortcut a full minute (in many cases more) worth of walking.

On the rare occasions I do take any JJ nodes, it is when I need just a tiny boost to be able to clear the canyon wall from the valley. This can also be useful on lighter mechs too, and can save a ton, why take an extra JJ when just a node or few can let you make that critical leap for a shortcut, one that is found on multiple maps?

The fact you would dismiss it out of hand is shocking to me at least.

i actually regret not buying a heavy metal sooner.

for me jjs are all in or nothing. there is probibly some gray area. but i like to go all in on the build's intended purpose, and so i take full use on the hm's poptart capability. being able to hit targets while in a hover is a nice to have. pwm jj macro incoming.

Edited by LordNothing, 31 January 2024 - 07:43 AM.