82 replies to this topic

[Besh]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 23 January 2024 - 12:49 PM, said:

Polar highlands didn't exist during the first lurmageddon, one of the first was closed beta back before ECM, NARC, etc even existed and LRMs were fire and forget.

*snip

So which is it, "one of the first" or the first ? Also, note how I wrote "IIrc" ? As I recall it, THE Lurmageddon did not happen during CB . But why even argue about it ? There was a Lurmageddon, I think it was THE Lurmageddon (not an arbitrary set by you "first" or "one of the first") when Polar already had been released, and in any case, it was possible to deal with LRMs then, whether it was "the first" Lurmageddon or not .

Curccu, on 23 January 2024 - 01:05 PM, said:

Old polar and LRM lance including spotter was almost always effortless win.

Do I need to quote the post of mine you replied to ?

[Curccu]

Besh, on 23 January 2024 - 01:17 PM, said:

Do I need to quote the post of mine you replied to ?

Please do, I don't remember all my ~4500 posts... specially if they are years olds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 23 January 2024 - 01:17 PM, said:

So which is it, "one of the first" or the first ? Also, note how I wrote "IIrc" ? As I recall it, THE Lurmageddon did not happen during CB . But why even argue about it ? There was a Lurmageddon, I think it was THE Lurmageddon (not an arbitrary set by you "first" or "one of the first") when Polar already had been released, and in any case, it was possible to deal with LRMs then, whether it was "the first" Lurmageddon or not .

There were two distinct lurmageddons that I was around for (I missed the most recent one that the Cauldron was scarred by) and they all centered around indirect fire and its ability to get around cover. Neither were really counterable in solo queue because again, coordination is rare in PUGs but between shared locks and lock-on mechanics it made coordinated fire super ez-mode for LRMs.

In particular the one outside of closed beta was DEFINITELY not easily countered in PUGs because LRMs literally dive bombed you such that the only cover that actually worked was tall buildings that ate the missiles before they could dive bomb. I also distinctly remember people not even bothering to login until the arc was hot-fixed on that one. It wasn't a long one but just kinda proof of just how problematic indirect fire and remotely increasing its effectiveness to circumvent cover is.

Keeping in mind during both of those incidents the velocity was also super slow (100m/s in CB, and I believe the other one was 130-150 m/s). Velocity isn't what makes/breaks lock-ons.

Edit: That said, to be comfortable in trades, it would probably have to have MRM level velocity, however, again, due to the ease of use of lock-ons, even compared to lasers, making them suitable "trading" weapons runs the risk of providing and easy button for winning trades which is why I also understand the hesitance, especially given that travel time being linear makes them much harder to deal with them at mid-shorter ranges.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 23 January 2024 - 02:13 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

And honestly, one of those Lurmageddons was exaggerated because of maps like old Caustic, old Polar Highlands, and Alpine Peaks being heavy in the rotation list. There was nothing to hide behind.

[Besh]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 23 January 2024 - 01:59 PM, said:

There were two distinct lurmageddons that I was around for (I missed the most recent one that the Cauldron was scarred by) and they all centered around indirect fire and its ability to get around cover. Neither were really counterable in solo queue because again, coordination is rare in PUGs but between shared locks and lock-on mechanics it made coordinated fire super ez-mode for LRMs.

In particular the one outside of closed beta was DEFINITELY not easily countered in PUGs because LRMs literally dive bombed you such that the only cover that actually worked was tall buildings that ate the missiles before they could dive bomb. I also distinctly remember people not even bothering to login until the arc was hot-fixed on that one. It wasn't a long one but just kinda proof of just how problematic indirect fire and remotely increasing its effectiveness to circumvent cover is.

Keeping in mind during both of those incidents the velocity was also super slow (100m/s in CB, and I believe the other one was 130-150 m/s). Velocity isn't what makes/breaks lock-ons.

Edit: That said, to be comfortable in trades, it would probably have to have MRM level velocity, however, again, due to the ease of use of lock-ons, even compared to lasers, making them suitable "trading" weapons runs the risk of providing and easy button for winning trades which is why I also understand the hesitance, especially given that travel time being linear makes them much harder to deal with them at mid-shorter ranges.

Interesting how you shift the conversation to "PUGs" to make your points . I did not explicitly mention PUGs . GroupQ was very much a thing then .

ScrapIron Prime, on 23 January 2024 - 03:11 PM, said:

And honestly, one of those Lurmageddons was exaggerated because of maps like old Caustic, old Polar Highlands, and Alpine Peaks being heavy in the rotation list. There was nothing to hide behind.

Yeah, Alpine honestly was a pain . But as since MW:Os inception, many people rather complain about Maps than learning to play them .

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 23 January 2024 - 03:15 PM, said:

Interesting how you shift the conversation to "PUGs" to make your points . I did not explicitly mention PUGs . GroupQ was very much a thing then .

Yeah, and? We have soup queue now, so the expectation is that you have to account for some lack of coordination. No different than groups that would brawl rush in large numbers, the only gotcha there was that at least they were lighter and couldn't steam roll with heavier mechs like 8 Linebackers or something goofy like that.

Besh, on 23 January 2024 - 03:15 PM, said:

Yeah, Alpine honestly was a pain . But as since MW:Os inception, many people rather complain about Maps than learning to play them .

Learning how to play them is one thing (though ironic given how most people don't play to strong points on maps, even those who say "learn the map"). Them being boring and awful to play on is another thing, and yes, most of the maps in this game have serious issues and almost all the reworks have not corrected the original issues with the map or in some case added even more issues.

[Gasboy]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 January 2024 - 12:43 PM, said:

Oh there's no question here. Just saying.

And what's with the attempt at iambic pentameter? Watching some back episodes of Thug Notes?

Why do you always reply in aligned left?

They're using the center alignment, not writing in verse.

[Willie Sauerland]

ScrapIron Prime, on 23 January 2024 - 03:11 PM, said:

And honestly, one of those Lurmageddons was exaggerated because of maps like old Caustic, old Polar Highlands, and Alpine Peaks being heavy in the rotation list. There was nothing to hide behind.

Sure there was.
I tended to hide behind the Atlas or Awesome.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScrapIron Prime, on 23 January 2024 - 03:11 PM, said:

And honestly, one of those Lurmageddons was exaggerated because of maps like old Caustic, old Polar Highlands, and Alpine Peaks being heavy in the rotation list. There was nothing to hide behind.

Honestly, this feels like a copout. If you remove indirect fire from LRMs, those maps become pretty much like any other maps. LRMs would still be powerful because they still have a lot of open spots but you wouldn't have lurmageddon, the fact they have to alter maps just to avoid that is not telling of the map design, it's telling of the weapon system itself.

[YankeeDoodle77]

Novakaine, on 22 January 2024 - 12:33 PM, said:

Known Issue: LRM/ATM Missiles have a chance to fire in the wrong direction despite having missile lock.
So this new LRM nerf.

I had this happen to me once, DON'T BUY FROM CAPELLANS. There is a saying from ancient Terra. "能骗就骗", and they LOVE that. I tried buying 2 LRM 20's to put on my Annihilator for Solaris game once and they sold me a MRM 40.

[kalashnikity]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 January 2024 - 01:12 PM, said:

Right, but this is "the game engine can no longer figure out how to get the missile from the firer to the target" kind of stuff. That doesn't... concern... anyone?



Speaking as a guy who can write code... I'm guessing the angle change at the 0,0 point has a LOT more to do with each of the other angles in the trajectory and that changing it affects all the other numbers down the line of the whole shebang.

They had to have tested it to put up the "missiles might not work at all now" disclaimer, but this wasn't a deal breaker???

We aren't supposed to be using missiles anymore anyways, the elitist 1% of players don't want them in THEIR game.

I still have the screen shots if anyone wants to complain that I'm making this up.

Weird how so many Tier ones don't seem to be able to figure out a way to deal with LRMS other than nerfing them.

This LRM hating nerfing is toxic to the game.

[kalashnikity]

Curccu, on 23 January 2024 - 03:46 AM, said:

Well didn't check what he pilots or not.
But takin HAG salvo from other side of the map requires target to stay still or they will not land to just single ST, not even 100 percentile player can do that.
And for that less than 40 damage doesn't give assaults or heavies orange armor.



Sure lore-wise that LRMs probably should outrange almost everything, from balance point of view probably not good idea for LRMs to have much more range than they already have.
I have melted so many mechs from ~1000m away with lurms with dedicated spotter in group, simply because they thought they were safe that far away and no LOS to action and got caught in open.

Show me a map that does not have cover almost everywhere.

Kill the spotter.

Every tactic has a counter.

[LordNothing]

ive seen this on some atm boats. only certain chassis. this could be an issue if the hardpoint normals were rotated into an undesired direction, and that it happens only on a few mechs means that the problem is likely confined to those specific models.

[LordNothing]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 January 2024 - 01:12 PM, said:

Right, but this is "the game engine can no longer figure out how to get the missile from the firer to the target" kind of stuff. That doesn't... concern... anyone?



Speaking as a guy who can write code... I'm guessing the angle change at the 0,0 point has a LOT more to do with each of the other angles in the trajectory and that changing it affects all the other numbers down the line of the whole shebang.

They had to have tested it to put up the "missiles might not work at all now" disclaimer, but this wasn't a deal breaker???

i noticed missiles firing weird on some mechs before the most recent patch. seems to be confined to a handful of mechs, so its not a sweeping bug. i think the normals are off. if we could identify the specific chassis (i forgot what i was running when i saw it) it should be pretty straightforward to fix.

[pattonesque]

kalashnikity, on 23 January 2024 - 07:54 PM, said:

We aren't supposed to be using missiles anymore anyways, the elitist 1% of players don't want them in THEIR game.

I still have the screen shots if anyone wants to complain that I'm making this up.

Weird how so many Tier ones don't seem to be able to figure out a way to deal with LRMS other than nerfing them.

This LRM hating nerfing is toxic to the game.

there's a pretty wide skill variety in T1 but generally most of them know how to deal with LRMs which is 'stand behind cover' or 'close to below 180m'

not that hard lol

[LordNothing]

it amuses me how the lerm inquisition comes out of the closet every time somone posts a legitimate issue wrt lerms (one that ive seen first hand months ago). "lerms are op pls nerf" "learn to play" "buff lerms" over and over every damn time. lets flat out ignore the intent of the thread.

[Curccu]

Gasboy, on 23 January 2024 - 03:42 PM, said:

Why do you always reply in aligned left?

Because that is default? Standard to pretty much every forum format I have ever seen.

But sure I could start to be special and do this.

Every other line on different side.

Would be pretty cool to read.

Oh wait I could add centered between those.

Sometimes... not always

Yeah pretty good IMHO.

[LordNothing]

kingdom of loathing has a forum where you have to post everything in the form of a haiku. they also give you an english exam before you are allowed to use them.

[Heavy Money]

Looks like the LRMs flying in the wrong direction isn't even happening live, so nothing to worry about there.

[kalashnikity]

LordNothing, on 23 January 2024 - 10:55 PM, said:

kingdom of loathing has a forum where you have to post everything in the form of a haiku. they also give you an english exam before you are allowed to use them.

That's hilariously great! I would vote for a psych exam on this forum.